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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Brits: Are you wearing a poppey?
  • Yes - 3 (25%)
  • No - 9 (75%)
  • Keep forgetting to buy one - 0 (0%)
  • Keep forgetting to put it on - 0 (0%)
  • Bought one but just don't want to pearce the fine leather jacket ... - 0 (0%)
  • Total Voters: 12

 Topic: Poppy

 (Read 5770 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #30 - November 04, 2009, 10:18 AM

    By the same token, do you have respect for dead Taliban fighters?


    Taliban fighters are not soldiers.  They are guerillas..  I'll respect the fact that unlike many they had the guts to fight and die for their beliefs but that is where it ends...

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #31 - November 04, 2009, 10:39 AM

    Great, well wear a poppy for them to whilst your at it, at least it actually would have some cultural significance.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #32 - November 04, 2009, 03:56 PM

    I think they wanted their own "Homer falling to the bottom of the gorge" moment.

    YOu got the link?

    This is my personal favourite

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faRlFsYmkeY

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #33 - November 04, 2009, 04:10 PM

    You've never seen homer falling down to the bottom of the gorge?! That is probably the most famous Simpsons scene ever!

    I can't find the clip buit its at the end of this episode:

    http://www.wtso.net/movie/221-The_Simpsons_208_Bart_the_Daredevil.html

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #34 - November 04, 2009, 04:16 PM

    Taliban fighters are not soldiers.  They are guerillas.. 


    The whole guerillas v. soldiers thing is a distinction without a difference in terms of honoring the war dead. Should the fallen soldiers of the Continental Army in the American Revolution be honored any less simply because they were not in the service of an internationally-recognized nation-state at the time? Or the Yugoslav Partisans? Should Vietnam stop remembering members of the NLF guerillas who died in the war effort and only recognize the fallen NVA regulars?

    If anything, there's an argument to be made that guerillas are owed more honor because they weren't simply conscripts fighting for morally-unclear objectives, ordered by their national government, but they instead volunteered for an ideologically-clear cause, in spite of the powers-that-be.

    In this case I think it is completely acceptable to decide who to honor and who not to based on a moral or ideological basis. For instance, although on "Memorial Day" it is common practice to honor, along with US soldiers killed in all other conflicts, both the Union and Confederate dead from the US Civil War, I spit on the memory of the Confederate rebels-- fuck them. Nor will I respect "Peace Officers Memorial Day" until our government stops using the police as agents of mass repression. And the Taliban-- not that I'd expect to run across one of their graves ever, but if I did, I'd piss on it.

    So, if we are not morally obligated to honor every soldier/guerilla/rebel, dependent on what they were fighting for, there is a strong argument to be made that for people who are not of a nationalist bent, there is no reason to honor the fallen soldiers of their own countries who volunteered to fight in unjust wars (though the vast majority that have been killed in Britain's wars were conscripts, and I consider it pretty damn disrespectful to refuse to honor your countrymen who died in an unjust war if they had no choice but to participate-- then again I may not be a nationalist, but I do feel some specific loyalty to my countrymen).

    But I don't look at it like that. The way I see it is that even though I did not choose to be born here and even though, if I had it my way, we'd have a non-imperialist foreign policy, I do live in the heart of the American Empire and enjoy the benefits of that status, so I will respect the memory of my country's war dead no matter whether they are volunteers or conscripts, no matter whether they died in a just war like WWII or an unjust war like the Vietnam War. That and the fact that my great-grandpa served in combat in WWI, my grandpa in combat in WWII, my grandma in an auxillary role in WWII, and my ma in the US Army during peacetime, as well as my own very brief service with the US Army and my numerous friends who have served in the military-- I feel a personal moral obligation to give respect to members of the military which tempers my more internationalist and anti-imperialist beliefs.

    HOWEVER, that's personal, and I wouldn't criticize someone for saying they don't feel like they need to honor the deaths of soldiers from their own country who volunteered to fight in unjust wars. Conscripts, as I said above, are a different story. I do, however, find the tendency of some Americans to want to get down on their knees and fellate every vet for fighting for their "freedom" a bit gag-inducing, as, since WWII (and maybe Korea) they have been fighting for no such thing even if they think they were.

    fuck you
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #35 - November 04, 2009, 04:19 PM

    Quote
    And the Taliban-- not that I'd expect to run across one of their graves ever, but if I did, I'd piss on it.


    +1.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #36 - November 04, 2009, 04:38 PM

    The whole guerillas v. soldiers thing is a distinction without a difference in terms of honoring the war dead. Should the fallen soldiers of the Continental Army in the American Revolution be honored any less simply because they were not in the service of an internationally-recognized nation-state at the time? Or the Yugoslav Partisans? Should Vietnam stop remembering members of the NLF guerillas who died in the war effort and only recognize the fallen NVA regulars?

    If anything, there's an argument to be made that guerillas are owed more honor because they weren't simply conscripts fighting for morally-unclear objectives, ordered by their national government, but they instead volunteered for an ideologically-clear cause, in spite of the powers-that-be.

    In this case I think it is completely acceptable to decide who to honor and who not to based on a moral or ideological basis. For instance, although on "Memorial Day" it is common practice to honor, along with US soldiers killed in all other conflicts, both the Union and Confederate dead from the US Civil War, I spit on the memory of the Confederate rebels-- fuck them. Nor will I respect "Peace Officers Memorial Day" until our government stops using the police as agents of mass repression. And the Taliban-- not that I'd expect to run across one of their graves ever, but if I did, I'd piss on it.

    So, if we are not morally obligated to honor every soldier/guerilla/rebel, dependent on what they were fighting for, there is a strong argument to be made that for people who are not of a nationalist bent, there is no reason to honor the fallen soldiers of their own countries who volunteered to fight in unjust wars (though the vast majority that have been killed in Britain's wars were conscripts, and I consider it pretty damn disrespectful to refuse to honor your countrymen who died in an unjust war if they had no choice but to participate-- then again I may not be a nationalist, but I do feel some specific loyalty to my countrymen).

    But I don't look at it like that. The way I see it is that even though I did not choose to be born here and even though, if I had it my way, we'd have a non-imperialist foreign policy, I do live in the heart of the American Empire and enjoy the benefits of that status, so I will respect the memory of my country's war dead no matter whether they are volunteers or conscripts, no matter whether they died in a just war like WWII or an unjust war like the Vietnam War. That and the fact that my great-grandpa served in combat in WWI, my grandpa in combat in WWII, my grandma in an auxillary role in WWII, and my ma in the US Army during peacetime, as well as my own very brief service with the US Army and my numerous friends who have served in the military-- I feel a personal moral obligation to give respect to members of the military which tempers my more internationalist and anti-imperialist beliefs.

    HOWEVER, that's personal, and I wouldn't criticize someone for saying they don't feel like they need to honor the deaths of soldiers from their own country who volunteered to fight in unjust wars. Conscripts, as I said above, are a different story. I do, however, find the tendency of some Americans to want to get down on their knees and fellate every vet for fighting for their "freedom" a bit gag-inducing, as, since WWII (and maybe Korea) they have been fighting for no such thing even if they think they were.




    Fair enough.. you are right in many respects... the thing is that the situation here is different.  The armies involved are not conscripts but volunatary and the unlike the American revolutionaries and some other groups you mentioned, the Taliban do not represent the people of Afghanistan (neither do the other armies represent the will of their people, but they were sent there by democractically elected governments with the official purpose of protecting the citizens from their enemies),
    therefore they are not partisans or freedom fighters..  They are mainly from the Pashtun tribes that live in both Afghanistan and Pakistan.  They are only fighting so as to impose their rule on the rest of the Afghans again.  That was my point.  One should also remember the people gang pressed into fighting for them....

    All I did was simply voice my opinion..  I wear a poppy because I have relatives who serve and to honour my grandfathers who fought under the British and their brothers, some of who died fighting..

    I do not delude myself by thinking that many of those people died for freedom or democracy, especially in the recent wars.  I simply remember them and what they went through.. It is about awareness more then anything... One does not need to idolise and fellate veterans, but forgetting stuff is another story..

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #37 - November 04, 2009, 05:57 PM

    You've never seen homer falling down to the bottom of the gorge?! That is probably the most famous Simpsons scene ever!

    I can't find the clip buit its at the end of this episode:

    http://www.wtso.net/movie/221-The_Simpsons_208_Bart_the_Daredevil.html

    It doesnt work?

    Here's one for you - The Singsons

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cReHCdLBB5Y&NR=1&feature=fvwp


    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #38 - November 04, 2009, 05:59 PM

    I think wtso.net doesn't work on Internet Explorer - Anyway, I've seen The Singhsons!

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #39 - November 04, 2009, 07:20 PM

    All I did was simply voice my opinion..


    Yeah, I know, why should I have a problem with that? Was all I did too.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #40 - November 04, 2009, 08:23 PM

    I'm wearing one - they were selling them at the British Muslims for Secular Democracy Demo on Saturday.

    For me it is to remember millions of people who died as a result of wars - soldiers and civilians. It symbolises the ugliness of war and the failure of the human race to solve its problems without resorting to killing one another. I don't really care what it means to anyone else, but that's what it means to me.

    What I don't like is the feeling amongst some that it is some sort of badge of loyalty/nationalism or assumption that if you don't wear one it means you must be disloyal, hate England blah blah blah...
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #41 - November 04, 2009, 09:13 PM

    ' O0What I don't like is the feeling amongst some that it is some sort of badge of loyalty/nationalism or assumption that if you don't wear one it means you must be disloyal, hate England blah blah blah...'


    Yep.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Poppy
     Reply #42 - November 05, 2009, 11:00 AM

    Yeah, you def have a point there Hassan, and all this Daily Mail outrage is going a bit overboard, from premiership teams choosing not to wear one on their shirts to strictly come dancing dancers not wearing one. And in the end the Daily Mail will proclaim "broken Britain" as I read on one of the comments of a Guardian article.

    Well, it's not that think people who don't wear one are disloyal, just that well - I feel it would at least show some mark of integration of second generations in particular who wear one out of respect, out of their own choice. But that's just my opinion, and I suppose one can't force these things, and this opinion doesn't take precedence over people's freedom not to wear one - such freedom that the soldiers fought for in the first place.
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