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Theme Changer

 Topic: Labels

 (Read 3054 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Labels
     OP - November 08, 2009, 01:27 AM
    I sometimes feel like this life is such a charade - a stupid illusion.

    As Shakespeare said:

    Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
    And then is heard no more. It is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing.

    The labels we have are just the parts we play.

    Don't you ever wish we could all discard these labels and roles and see that we are all the same behind them?
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #1 - November 08, 2009, 01:31 AM
    Sounds like something Michel Foucault would say Smiley
    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #2 - November 08, 2009, 01:34 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 08, 2009, 01:27 AM
    Don't you ever wish we could all discard these labels and roles and see that we are all the same behind them?

    What would we be without our labels & roles - indistinct?
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  • Re: Labels
     Reply #3 - November 08, 2009, 02:25 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 08, 2009, 01:27 AM
    I sometimes feel like this life is such a charade - a stupid illusion.

    As Shakespeare said:

    Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
    And then is heard no more. It is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing.

    The labels we have are just the parts we play.

    Don't you ever wish we could all discard these labels and roles and see that we are all the same behind them?



    I wonder what he would write if he knew that every lifeform on this planet was connected to each other - from simplest bacteria to the Giant Redwood tree to Humans.

    Would he still say life's a walking shadow?




    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #4 - November 08, 2009, 09:19 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 08, 2009, 01:27 AM
    Don't you ever wish we could all discard these labels and roles and see that we are all the same behind them?



    Yes, o ex muslim. Didn't you you shoot me down for being a party pooper when I brought this up before?
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #5 - November 08, 2009, 10:53 AM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 08, 2009, 09:19 AM

    Yes, o ex muslim. Didn't you you shoot me down for being a party pooper when I brought this up before?


    Where did I "Shoot you down" about this?

    I've always said I don't like labels, though I recognise they can sometimes be useful. Such as a label like "ex-Muslim" to help break-down the taboo surrounding leaving Islam.

    That has always been my position and I have said that more than once.

    If you think my position has been different or that I have "shot you down" about this then please do quote it.
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #6 - November 08, 2009, 11:11 AM
    You remember a long time back, when I asked why the need to keep labelling. I said why the need to label yourself Muslim/ex-Muslim. You said I was being a wet blanket and should be encouraging others to join a site where they will take on yet another label. Something like that, was called 'Just a thought' or something.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #7 - November 08, 2009, 11:38 AM
    d
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 08, 2009, 11:11 AM
    You remember a long time back, when I asked why the need to keep labelling. I said why the need to label yourself Muslim/ex-Muslim. You said I was being a wet blanket and should be encouraging others to join a site where they will take on yet another label. Something like that, was called 'Just a thought' or something.


    I'm quite sure my position has always been, I don't like labels, but accept that labels like ex-Muslim can be useful - even if only temporarily.

    I doubt very much that I "shot you down" for questioning "labels".

    It may been for questioning the need for this site, or the need for a Council of Ex-Muslims.

    I did a quick search for that thread and couldn't find it, but I did find these quotes of mine from several different threads going back to 2008.

    Quote from: Hassan on November 20, 2008, 07:11 PM
    yes I agree completely with what you say - in fact I have said the same thing. I'd rather do without any label.

    I consider it only a temporary label that is useful in helping breaking down the taboo of leaving Islam.


    Quote from: Hassan on April 16, 2009, 12:11 PM
    Because there is still massive prejudice against Gays and so it is a way of breaking down that taboo.

    Just like we say we are Ex-Muslims.

    I hope one day both she and I will say we are just human beings - without any need for labels.

    Until then the world is still full of idiots who have a problem with people who leave Islam or who are Gay.



    Quote
    I don't want to spend the rest of my life waving the label Ex-Muslim over my head. I'd rather get on with my life.


    Quote
    I don't really want to call myself an ex-Muslim, but it is a useful label in trying to break the taboo of leaving Islam. Once Muslims get over people choosing what they want to believe the label of Ex-Muslim will become meaningless. At the moment it is still meaningful.


    Quote
    I certainly don't want to be forever defined in relation to what I was in the past, but for who I am now.

    It is however a convenient label at the moment for many reasons. Perhaps the chief reason is that it is the best way of breaking the taboo about leaving Islam and to show others in a similar position to us that they are not alone.


  • Re: Labels
     Reply #8 - November 08, 2009, 11:59 AM
    I found the thread. It is in the Archives (Old Forum).

    You were saying we shouldn't spend the rest of our days dissecting and picking holes in Islam and instead move on

    Far from "shooting you down" I basically agreed with you.

    This is what I said:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/weaponstestingrange/index.php/topic,229.32.html

    Quote
    I agree - so why are you rallying against people dissecting things? It may well be pointless to you - but the fact they do it means they have a need to do it.

    Eventually that too will run it's natural course - burn itself out - so by your own philosophy (which I agree with) let things be and let people (on whatever level they are at) act out their little part in this cosmic play.


  • Re: Labels
     Reply #9 - November 08, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Gosh that thread is from a while ago - interesting to see how your writing style has changed over 2 years Hass..
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  • Re: Labels
     Reply #10 - November 08, 2009, 12:22 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 08, 2009, 11:59 AM
    I found the thread. It is in the Archives (Old Forum).

    You were saying we shouldn't spend the rest of our days dissecting and picking holes in Islam and instead move on

    Far from "shooting you down" I basically agreed with you.

    This is what I said:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/weaponstestingrange/index.php/topic,229.32.html




    .And called me a wet blanket too. Thats the thing with you, your views shift and change all the time, which is fine, but when you state something, often is is stated as an absolute 'truth'. Never mind, carry on.

    Oh yeah, and sorry to keep referring back to it, but it was a fairly recent example - the reincarnation thing you dismissed - again, fine to question it, but you go further, always with some emotional knee-jerk reaction `and an absolute that it must be, therefore; bullshit.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #11 - November 08, 2009, 12:27 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 08, 2009, 12:10 PM
    interesting to see how your writing style has changed over 2 years Hass..



    Yep, isn't it.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #12 - November 08, 2009, 01:22 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 08, 2009, 12:22 PM
    .And called me a wet blanket too. Thats the thing with you, your views shift and change all the time, which is fine, but when you state something, often is is stated as an absolute 'truth'. Never mind, carry on.

    Oh yeah, and sorry to keep referring back to it, but it was a fairly recent example - the reincarnation thing you dismissed - again, fine to question it, but you go further, always with some emotional knee-jerk reaction `and an absolute that it must be, therefore; bullshit.

    But Jack this is it - dont you do the same thing, but in a different fashion, by your trademark one-line acerbic comments flung around this forum.  At least Hassan is being honest and opens his comments up to debate, you on the other hand cloak and sneakily masturbate behnd your sarcasm.
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    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #13 - November 08, 2009, 02:16 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 08, 2009, 01:27 AM
    I sometimes feel like this life is such a charade - a stupid illusion.

    As Shakespeare said:

    Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
    And then is heard no more. It is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing.

    The labels we have are just the parts we play.

    Don't you ever wish we could all discard these labels and roles and see that we are all the same behind them?


    Gosh wow, I mean I'm pretty depressed today but this quote is far more depressing than I can agree with.  I feel like I must fight and rail against this truth because to accept it would simply lead to despair and pointlessly continuing the charade lol.

    I do hate labels, yet the labels I hate are the ones that are given to me, not the ones I claim for myself.  I don't mind labelling myself as an ex muslim, this is a choice I made for myself.

    On the other hand some of the other labels society or people impose on me, and define me by are the ones I hate.  The way people treat you based on a label, you are labelled female, ergo my treatment of you must be different, you are labelled gay, therefore I must treat you differently, you are coloured and on and on, those make me sick.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #14 - November 08, 2009, 05:30 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 08, 2009, 12:22 PM
    And called me a wet blanket too.


    Show me where I called you a wet blanket?

    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 08, 2009, 12:22 PM
    Thats the thing with you, your views shift and change all the time, which is fine, but when you state something, often is is stated as an absolute 'truth'. Never mind, carry on.

    Oh yeah, and sorry to keep referring back to it, but it was a fairly recent example - the reincarnation thing you dismissed - again, fine to question it, but you go further, always with some emotional knee-jerk reaction `and an absolute that it must be, therefore; bullshit.


    I have shown you I didn't 'shoot you down' (quite the reverse - I agreed with you) and I have shown you that my views on this haven't shifted - I have always been against labels.

    Instead of saying, "Oh yeah, sorry, you are right." You still insist you are right and I am wrong.

    And again you bring up the discussion about Buddhism. How many times do I have to say that I did not dismiss Buddhism nor even the idea of reincarnation?

    The ONLY thing I don't believe in is the idea that people with handicaps are that way because they were 'bad' in a former life.

    I don't really enjoy this forum anymore. I'm always aware that you will jump on my posts and start ranting at me, or taunt me or take a swipe at me. If I express an opinion I have come to expect you will jump in with a snide remark like:

    "Is this the same kind of in depth 'experience' you had of Buddhism"

    Or:

    "Oh, and at least it didnt take me 25 fucken years to suss Islam out."

    There doesn't seem any point in arguing with you since I know you will never admit you were wrong. You ignore it when I post quotes showing that what you said was incorrect and just shift to another attack and go on and on and in the end I have to give up. I am simply not as strong-willed as you and I'm tired of arguing with you.

    So yes, Jack you are right. I'm sorry I spoke. Forgive me for not being as wise as you.
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #15 - November 08, 2009, 05:30 PM
    Dont worry Berbs - the only label I give you is President of the ASFC society  Cheesy
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  • Re: Labels
     Reply #16 - November 08, 2009, 05:42 PM
    I never understand Shakespeare, and I don't understand at all what that quote means. banghead

    I think labels are very important. Cast, religion, blood type, right down to our names. I think it is important because we are all not the same. We are unique, even twins think slightly differently, as do nations, races and continents.

    Now, whether the actions based on these labels is good or bad is a different matter. Using the information to ethnic cleansing is bad. But using it for identifying which race suffers more from a certain disease and then treating them is useful.

    A knife can be used to kill and to cure. Same with labels. I don't like being interrogated for having a certain middle name, or being looked at a certain way when my stubble gets too long, but I like being a student and getting a discounted rail card!  Wink

    PS: Every time I read about a successful a Mr Green-span/berg (Green in German means young sapling I think) I immediately wiki them to find out they had some heritage from Europe or their parents fled Nazi Germany. Can't achieve this without labels.
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #17 - November 08, 2009, 05:56 PM
    Labels are interesting.  For example take my label an Ex-Muslim ENTJ from the UK.  Find me another one, and I would be prepared to go out for a drink in a bar with them,and am sure we would have an interesting night.

    On the other hand find me a Muslim ISFP, and I dont think we would enjoy each others company - in fact we would both be looking for excuses not to go.
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    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #18 - November 08, 2009, 07:36 PM
    And that's a perfect use of labels: it describes. That's what a label is.

    So let's look at negative aspects of labels:
    # Racism
    # Stereotype
    # Discrimination
    # Prejudice

    Okay, so they all exist, thanks to labels. Now some positives from my personal experience:
    # Price discrimination (no pun intended). e.g. a rail ticket
    # Self defense e.g. Who's going to mug me, that teenager with the hoodie or person dressed for work?
    # Trust: Banks will lend to employed people with good credit histories, not the opposite.
    # Personality compatibility: As IsLame mentioned above.
    # Employment: The graduate from Cambridge or non-graduate?

    Now, my view is that all things should be treated with a normal distribution (or bell curve). Extremes/anomalies exist (perhaps the non-graduate IS the better employee). But the mean and 1/2 SD's away from it exist with high probability of living up to that label, and this is the reason humans naturally label. Without labeling,we'd be lost.

    But the warning to all above is this: labels and statistical analysis are only as good as the reliability of the analysis, which is why sure, painting a group of people under the same brush isn't good. The whole credit crunch was due to erroneous labeling of "Triple A" securities (sub-prime US mortgages).
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  • Re: Labels
     Reply #19 - November 08, 2009, 10:41 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 08, 2009, 05:30 PM
    Show me where I called you a wet blanket?

    I have shown you I didn't 'shoot you down' (quite the reverse - I agreed with you) and I have shown you that my views on this haven't shifted - I have always been against labels.

    Instead of saying, "Oh yeah, sorry, you are right." You still insist you are right and I am wrong.

    And again you bring up the discussion about Buddhism. How many times do I have to say that I did not dismiss Buddhism nor even the idea of reincarnation?

    The ONLY thing I don't believe in is the idea that people with handicaps are that way because they were 'bad' in a former life.

    I don't really enjoy this forum anymore. I'm always aware that you will jump on my posts and start ranting at me, or taunt me or take a swipe at me. If I express an opinion I have come to expect you will jump in with a snide remark like:

    "Is this the same kind of in depth 'experience' you had of Buddhism"

    Or:

    "Oh, and at least it didnt take me 25 fucken years to suss Islam out."

    There doesn't seem any point in arguing with you since I know you will never admit you were wrong. You ignore it when I post quotes showing that what you said was incorrect and just shift to another attack and go on and on and in the end I have to give up. I am simply not as strong-willed as you and I'm tired of arguing with you.

    So yes, Jack you are right. I'm sorry I spoke. Forgive me for not being as wise as you.

    Jack, this might be a good time to give the sibling rivalry a miss. It really is getting over the top. Hass makes some good points here.   
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Labels
     Reply #20 - November 09, 2009, 10:12 AM
    Fucking 'ell, here we go again. Ok, I won't bother replying Hass, to strengthen my case, I would have to mention things in public that are prob best not aired. I'll say this though, grow up and stop with all that 'Yes, your wiser than me, and now I'm going to act up like a child' blah de blah. You were never one to accept critcism gracefully.
    Ha Ha.
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