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 Topic: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #510 - November 23, 2009, 10:20 AM

    hay kim,

    Let me ask, aside from Internet weirdos, how are things with real humans?

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #511 - November 23, 2009, 10:57 AM


    spot on  Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #512 - November 23, 2009, 12:20 PM

    You know what? Thanks. That's big coming from you - you were like one of my biggest trolls on the KimDonesia channel.  Wink


    You should try some Nasi goreng with specially marinated Nasi meat made from pork (I wish i knew the English name for the type of pork used the closest i can get to a translation is pigpoulet or light-marbled pork ) . Very commonly sold here in the Netherlands.
    You can also get some lovely Sate made from pork although I always find them a bit dry and prefer them made from chicken filet.
    But maybe you will like it.
    Bakmi (Bami) also tastes delicious with the Nasi meat.
    I know you love Indonesian food. Smiley and the haram versions really taste the best.
    Of course you need plenty of Ketjap Manis to go with it and some Sambal.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #513 - November 23, 2009, 02:16 PM

    So anyone who is religious is not a free thinker?

    Hi xo Badr, It is an illogical mistake to deduce such a question from what I wrote. I will assume you just made a mistake and are not being deliberately dishonest. I will of course expect an apology for the mistake made once it becomes clear to you.

    Here is a similar logical mistake to the One you made:

    If it rains outside, then the streets will be wet.
    It rained.
    Then the streets are wet.

    It is erroneous now to use the above statement to jump to the conclusion that if the streets are wet, then it must have rained.

    A --leads to--> B
    If A, then B (correct)
    But it is a mistake to state that: B leads to A just because A leads to B.
    If B, then A (Incorrect)

    to take it back to what I posted:
    I said atheists are free thinkers today.

    You somehow made a jump that I also mean:
    If we see a free thinker, then they must be an atheist -> Wrong.
    If the street is wet, then it must have rained -> Wrong.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #514 - November 23, 2009, 04:29 PM

    You should try some Nasi goreng with specially marinated Nasi meat made from pork (I wish i knew the English name for the type of pork used the closest i can get to a translation is pigpoulet or light-marbled pork ) . Very commonly sold here in the Netherlands.
    You can also get some lovely Sate made from pork although I always find them a bit dry and prefer them made from chicken filet.
    But maybe you will like it.
    Bakmi (Bami) also tastes delicious with the Nasi meat.
    I know you love Indonesian food. Smiley and the haram versions really taste the best.
    Of course you need plenty of Ketjap Manis to go with it and some Sambal.


    I find this a great way to put it. May I use it in the future, Baal?

    tea and cake or death!!!

    "Dear Josh, we came by to fuck you, but you were not home. Therefore... you are gay."  Ghost World
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #515 - November 23, 2009, 04:30 PM

    You know... I don't watch as much pr0n as you might think I do.


    That's cause you probably watch more than I think you do.  Afro

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #516 - November 23, 2009, 08:28 PM

    Okay I think a distinction needs to be made here.

    xoBadr, I as an Atheist lack belief in theism--thus I refer myself as an Atheist. This lack of belief in theism is not compiled of other beliefs, since I do not proclaim that I know for absolute certainty there is no god. There may be a god, but I find it very improbable. Therefor I stand in the middle.

    I do have other beliefs which have nothing to do with theism. For example, my moral compass is led by beliefs that are constructed from life experiences.




    Oh, I see...
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #517 - November 23, 2009, 08:29 PM

    Irrelevant. That still does not preclude said monster existing. Wink

    ETA: Oh and that was not the only reason the idea of the FSM was invented.
    Not quite. You were trying to argue that "atheism is a belief", in case you've forgotten. grin12


    I know I said that, but belief doesn't equal God.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #518 - November 23, 2009, 08:33 PM

    Why? 
     

    I'd bet several people here regularly engage in theological debates with invisible friend believers who are trying to convince them otherwise.  I can't figure it  myself, but some people find such conversations fun. 

    Oh please. The internet is tailor made for people who want to discuss all manner of things that have nothing to do with them.  But this - this topic of a person who apostatised publicly and the reaction to it - it does relate directly to us in many ways.


    .....I was talking about the Muslim's who are overreacting about it.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #519 - November 23, 2009, 09:07 PM

    If you are going to go into arguing symantics about what atheism means..... can we have a different name?

    I leave it to you to label me


    I'm not arguing about what atheism means. I'm simply saying I see it as a belief. I see it as a belief. That is my opinion. I'm not dictating what atheism is.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #520 - November 23, 2009, 09:10 PM

    Hi xo Badr, It is an illogical mistake to deduce such a question from what I wrote. I will assume you just made a mistake and are not being deliberately dishonest. I will of course expect an apology for the mistake made once it becomes clear to you.

    Here is a similar logical mistake to the One you made:

    If it rains outside, then the streets will be wet.
    It rained.
    Then the streets are wet.

    It is erroneous now to use the above statement to jump to the conclusion that if the streets are wet, then it must have rained.

    A --leads to--> B
    If A, then B (correct)
    But it is a mistake to state that: B leads to A just because A leads to B.
    If B, then A (Incorrect)

    to take it back to what I posted:
    I said atheists are free thinkers today.

    You somehow made a jump that I also mean:
    If we see a free thinker, then they must be an atheist -> Wrong.
    If the street is wet, then it must have rained -> Wrong.



    lol.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #521 - November 23, 2009, 09:31 PM

    I'm not arguing about what atheism means. I'm simply saying I see it as a belief. I see it as a belief. That is my opinion. I'm not dictating what atheism is.


    You opinion can be wrong can't it?

    Wrong based on evidence right?

    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #522 - November 24, 2009, 02:50 AM

    Welcome Kim. Heard some much about you. Appreciate the sincerity in your reason for leaving Islam. I guess your reason is what led me to question Islam.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #523 - November 24, 2009, 03:49 AM

    I was a murtad, i kinda understand how she felt. In the end, she could be ended up as Muslim again like me, or she will stay murtad. It shouldnt be a big deal for anyone else, it's just life !

    Hi there.

    Some of you may know me as KimDonesia. I was quite a popular Muslim Youtuber and blogger. I appeared on TV in the Middle East, in magazines, on many blogs, on Turkish radio, etc. I was a role model Muslim who received praise from the majority of Muslims online, and "haram haram haram" from a lot of the stricter Muslims.

    On my 18th birthday my 14-year-old dog had to be put down, which triggered a depression. I was at home all the time, and thought a lot about the Hereafter. I feared for my non-Muslim family, and was constantly praying for them to be guided to Islam so that they could be saved from eternal Jahannam (Hellfire). I even thought of making my death wish "you must convert to Islam before you all die".  Cheesy

    One night, I had a long conversation with my mother and told her my worries. I explained to her that my perception of God was not the God in the Qur'an who constantly talked about punishment of Hell for the disbelievers... Seriously, that's what it's like. All throughout, it's basically "the disbelievers will go to Hell forever, and God is most Merciful, most Forgiving". I realized that I was only a Muslim out of fear of Hellfire, and being brainwashed.
    [/i]

    Don't get me wrong, I still respect Muslims. Islam was a big part of my life for quite a while. I simply disagree with Islam, for if there is a God (yup, 100% Agnostic now), He/She/It would not be so desperate for worship. People say "you need God, He doesn't need you". Doesn't seem like it.




    Quran doesnt say that non Muslims will go to hell, it only said if we dont become Muslim then it will be our disadvantage on earth and in hereafter. I didnt understand too why Allah wants to be worshiped while he's such an omnipotent deity. Now i understand that Allah/God/any names of the divine deity is not immaterial, but it consists of substance/energy. Substance/energy need another source/catalyst that support it, but religion has claimed there's also a substance/energy which is the "primal cause" of any life that it doesnt need any other source to exist. I once only believed the first one, but i got drifted into metaphysic long time ago then i believed that God could be the first one (substance that need support by human prayer for it), and after a while i started to believe they both are true and my "journey" answered why do we need to worship God ? I found out praying/worshipping's for our own good, cos us Human need to be supported by God's energy since we were born,  while we also still need it in life for our own benefit to purify our existing energy to keep it "positive" (Chi in Chinese), and the media for it is prayer/worship/meditation. I havent yet got any proof that God's energy need to be supported.

    So, it's not only Islam who will be the "backstage pass" for a "promising" hereafter, but there are other spirituality and religion as well. But the only complete guide for it, between all 3 "Abrahamic" religions is Islam (from the worship "technique", answering question of life, answering question of hereafter, and so on). And that just it. So, anyone dont have to be religious to be spiritual, including Agnostic. For me (personally) i tried everything else but only Islam is the best for my self developement and everything, and for everyone else things can be different & it's just normal.

    Al Baqarah : 62
    Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians (believers of the unseen), whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

    Quote
    It's funny that Muslims talk about Islam being a religion of peace when trying to bring people to Islam, but threaten to kill somebody who leaves Islam. *sigh* Gotta love double standards...


    Thats awful.. Youve been a Muslim once, of course you know about 2:256. Whoever did that to you dont deserve to call themselves "Muslims".
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #524 - November 24, 2009, 04:21 AM

    to me, gatty's answer was the best Muslim answer so far.

    tea and cake or death!!!

    "Dear Josh, we came by to fuck you, but you were not home. Therefore... you are gay."  Ghost World
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #525 - November 24, 2009, 04:24 AM

    About Hadith (even shahih hadith).

    I believe them too are questionable/inauthentic. Many Muslim and non-Muslims scholars believe so too.


    Completely agree  Afro
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #526 - November 24, 2009, 04:27 AM

    to me, gatty's answer was the best Muslim answer so far.


    Thank you, it's not easy to live as muslim with my own view. In real life i choose to stay quite than arguing with my mom, my uztadz or other fellow muslims, except the other muslims that have similar view as me.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #527 - November 24, 2009, 04:34 AM


    Quran doesnt say that non Muslims will go to hell, it only said if we dont become Muslim then it will be our disadvantage on earth and in hereafter.


    And what are the disadvantages in the hear after?



    Now i understand that Allah/God/any names of the divine deity is not immaterial, but it consists of substance/energy. Substance/energy need another source/catalyst that support it, but religion has claimed there's also a substance/energy which is the "primal cause" of any life that it doesnt need any other source to exist. I once only believed the first one, but i got drifted into metaphysic long time ago then i believed that God could be the first one (substance that need support by human prayer for it), and after a while i started to believe they both are true and my "journey" answered why do we need to worship God ? I found out praying/worshipping's for our own good, cos us Human need to be supported by God's energy since we were born,  while we also still need it in life for our own benefit to purify our existing energy to keep it "positive" (Chi in Chinese), and the media for it is prayer/worship/meditation. I havent yet got any proof that God's energy need to be supported.


    You remind me of Deepak Chopra.



    So, it's not only Islam who will be the "backstage pass" for a "promising" hereafter, but there are other spirituality and religion as well.


    Is that why the Quran repeatedly curses the non-believers and threatens them to a hell?  Roll Eyes


    So, anyone dont have to be religious to be spiritual, including Agnostic.


    According to Islam? Really?

    Al Baqarah : 62
    Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians (believers of the unseen), whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.


    Nice cherry picking.  Wink

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #528 - November 24, 2009, 04:36 AM

    Thank you, it's not easy to live as muslim with my own view. In real life i choose to stay quite than arguing with my mom, my uztadz or other fellow muslims, except the other muslims that have similar view as me.


    I prefer Muslims like you over the usual ones though  Afro

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #529 - November 24, 2009, 04:37 AM



    According to Islam? Really?



    I think it's according to him/her.

    I still think it's the best Muslim answer so far.  Smiley

    tea and cake or death!!!

    "Dear Josh, we came by to fuck you, but you were not home. Therefore... you are gay."  Ghost World
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #530 - November 24, 2009, 04:40 AM

    So a Muslim doesn't have to be religious in order to be spiritual with their god. Nice.  Afro

    You bring the alcohol, and I'll bring the sexy hijabis.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #531 - November 24, 2009, 04:41 AM

    1. Yes, i do believe so but honestly im very curious about Abu Bakar's mushaf in ancient Arabic font that has been burnt my Marwa, cos i believe it's the MOST original Quran (although many said ancient arabic font & modern arabic font have both the same meaning/vocabulary).

    2. Somehow everything in it know human better than i know myself as human. And not just about human, but what Quran says about "the other species/Jin" is all true. Also some soorah & verse are very effective for myself to get rid of jin/satan/negative energy (ayatul kursy, an naas, al falaaq, al ikhlash), a soorah is also very personal for me and my qorin (al ashr).
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #532 - November 24, 2009, 04:43 AM

    omg, that last post was for the other thread -_- was the other thread deleted ?
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #533 - November 24, 2009, 04:43 AM

    2. Somehow everything in it know human better than i know myself as human. And not just about human, but what Quran says about "the other species/Jin" is all true. Also some soorah & verse are very effective for myself to get rid of jin/satan/negative energy (ayatul kursy, an naas, al falaaq, al ikhlash), a soorah is also very personal for me and my qorin (al ashr).


    Jinns....right  Roll Eyes

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #534 - November 24, 2009, 04:48 AM

    Gatty, since you believe in Jinns, I must ask, in what basis do you justify Jinn possessions? Do you believe Jinns can posses the human mind to do bad things?

    If so, do you believe in Jinn exorcisms?

    If so, do you also believe in psychiatric treatments?

    Last but not least, if you believe in both, then where do you cross the line between Jinn possesions, and just a mental illness? Are there specific symptoms of each?

    I'm a psychology major (soon to be a psychiatrist) so I'm very intrigued by your views. I don't believe in Jinns, but since you do, I'd like to know  Smiley

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #535 - November 24, 2009, 04:51 AM

    I was a murtad, i kinda understand how she felt. In the end, she could be ended up as Muslim again like me, or she will stay murtad. It shouldnt be a big deal for anyone else, it's just life !


    Quran doesnt say that non Muslims will go to hell, it only said if we dont become Muslim then it will be our disadvantage on earth and in hereafter. I didnt understand too why Allah wants to be worshiped while he's such an omnipotent deity. Now i understand that Allah/God/any names of the divine deity is not immaterial, but it consists of substance/energy. Substance/energy need another source/catalyst that support it, but religion has claimed there's also a substance/energy which is the "primal cause" of any life that it doesnt need any other source to exist. I once only believed the first one, but i got drifted into metaphysic long time ago then i believed that God could be the first one (substance that need support by human prayer for it), and after a while i started to believe they both are true and my "journey" answered why do we need to worship God ? I found out praying/worshipping's for our own good, cos us Human need to be supported by God's energy since we were born,  while we also still need it in life for our own benefit to purify our existing energy to keep it "positive" (Chi in Chinese), and the media for it is prayer/worship/meditation. I havent yet got any proof that God's energy need to be supported.

    So, it's not only Islam who will be the "backstage pass" for a "promising" hereafter, but there are other spirituality and religion as well. But the only complete guide for it, between all 3 "Abrahamic" religions is Islam (from the worship "technique", answering question of life, answering question of hereafter, and so on). And that just it. So, anyone dont have to be religious to be spiritual, including Agnostic. For me (personally) i tried everything else but only Islam is the best for my self developement and everything, and for everyone else things can be different & it's just normal.

    Al Baqarah : 62
    Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians (believers of the unseen), whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

    Thats awful.. Youve been a Muslim once, of course you know about 2:256. Whoever did that to you dont deserve to call themselves "Muslims".



    What about the following verse:

    003.085
    YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

    I`m pretty sure losing means you go to hell.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #536 - November 24, 2009, 05:10 AM

    And what are the disadvantages in the hear after?


    101:6-7 Then, as for him whose scales are heavy (with good works), He shall live a pleasant life.

    Quran gives definition about what's good and bad for human and advice about what should be do / not do for the best of human. Personally, when i follow the advice in Quran, i do feel my life's more focused & ordered hence for me my life feels pleasant. I believe there's nothing Free in this world, what havent been paid on earth will be paid in the hereafter. So, i believe if i do bad deed & dont do good deed like the Quran says, ill receive difficulties to get through my life smoothly on earth that will prevent me "collecting" good deeds that will effect my life in hereafter.


    Quote
    Is that why the Quran repeatedly curses the non-believers and threatens them to a hell?  Roll Eyes

    There are people who dont believe in hereafter, sin, and the divine deity; Non-believers dont equal Non Mu'min or Non Muslims. By Quran, non believers're always potrayed as people who insult God. Personally, i think people who insult God will have less peaceful soul hence that's gonna hurt himself or other human.  I believe life on earth is nothing free, there's always eye for an eye for anything. Hell or heaven are just system which already there from the start.


    Quote
    According to Islam? Really?


    According to 2:62, and some other verses in Al Baqarah, and also according to me.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #537 - November 24, 2009, 05:15 AM

    What about the following verse:

    003.085
    YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

    I`m pretty sure losing means you go to hell.


    I dont see it as "you go to hell", i merely see it "as is", you will lost all spiritual good. And i dont think that verse's talking about people who's born as non muslim, but about muslim who's searching other religion. There are only 2 Abrahamic religions (judaism & christianity).
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #538 - November 24, 2009, 05:19 AM

    101:6-7 Then, as for him whose scales are heavy (with good works), He shall live a pleasant life.


    Describe a pleasant life in the hereafter for me--then describe an unpleasant life in the hereafter.

     
    Hell or heaven are just system which already there from the start.


    Cool. So since you believe in hell, and heaven, describe them both for me according to your views. Suppose I'm going to be "one of the losers" in the hereafter. What kind of life would I get after death?

    According to 2:62, and some other verses in Al Baqarah, and also according to me.


    So you're just cherry picking....

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #539 - November 24, 2009, 05:28 AM

    What in this verse indicates that "anyone" is referring to muslims looking for other religions. Other verses say Christians go to hell:

    005.072
    YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

    Christians believe God is Jesus and he`s condemning them all to hell. How do you reconcile this 5.69:

    005.069
    YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
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