Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

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- Rubaiyat
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #630 - November 24, 2009, 02:30 PM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 02:21 PM
I believe so, everything can be explained in the end.
I cant force somebody to follow my thought either, so you wanna call me a liar/crazy/or anything thats up to you.

I am not call you anything. I am pointing out to you that the Djinn is already described in the Quran. You don't need to add further description to God's words.

Quote
I know, one Quran definition about Jin was that the jinn was made of fire. Fire's substance is oxygen (mabe there're more than just oxygen but i forgot), and it sometimes can or cant be seen. All i know that oxygen consists of atoms, and in atom there're electrical particles (electron/negative, proton/positive, or neutron/neutral). As for how oxygen can produce heat ? i dont know that.

Fire is a chemical reaction.

Electricity is not a chemical reaction. It is flow of electrons.

There is a Big Difference.

I suggest you try to understand these things before you try to mould Quran into them.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #631 - November 24, 2009, 02:32 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on November 24, 2009, 02:27 PM
The Sun can't talk.

Sure it cant i wasnt talking about the sun but jin.

Quote
Of course you're not. Sensory illusions can be very powerful, especially when backed up by confirmation bias in the form of widespread superstitions about mythical creatures like jinn.

Hopefully there're more theories & research about non-optical sensory illusion, and substance of jinn.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #632 - November 24, 2009, 02:34 PM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 02:21 PM
I believe so, everything can be explained in the end.

God is part of nature?

I think you should read your Quran more carefully.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #633 - November 24, 2009, 02:35 PM

Quote
Sure it cant i wasnt talking about the sun but jin.

Oh, I see. Sensory illusions can involve all five senses, so certainly people can experience an illusion which involves a jinn talking to them.

Quote
Hopefully there're more theories & research about non-optical sensory illusion, and substance of jinn.

There's plenty of research on the subject of sensory illusions already. As for jinn, they don't exist so there's not much point in trying to research their "substance."

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #634 - November 24, 2009, 02:38 PM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 24, 2009, 02:30 PM
I am not call you anything. I am pointing out to you that the Djinn is already described in the Quran. You don't need to add further description to God's words.

Fire is a chemical reaction.

Electricity is not a chemical reaction. It is flow of electrons.

There is a Big Difference.

I suggest you try to understand these things before you try to mould Quran into them.

I know. And there's a relation between electrical particles and Fire though.... Fire is chemical reaction because there's Oxygen (maybe other substance i forgot), Oxygen's built of electrical substance ( positive, negative, and neutral).

You mentioned Quran & Jin, so i said in Quran it's written that Jinn was made of "smokeless fire". And so you blame me for that. umm.. as you wish

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #635 - November 24, 2009, 02:41 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on November 24, 2009, 02:35 PM
Oh, I see. Sensory illusions can involve all five senses, so certainly people can experience an illusion which involves a jinn talking to them.

There's plenty of research on the subject of sensory illusions already. As for jinn, they don't exist so there's not much point in trying to research their "substance."

Is there any proof that sensory illusion that some people see and talk with the same object at the same time ?
Jin dont exist based on what if there's no research?

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #636 - November 24, 2009, 02:43 PM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 24, 2009, 02:34 PM
God is part of nature?

I think you should read your Quran more carefully.

Im curious about the verses, can you quote them ?

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #637 - November 24, 2009, 02:46 PM

Quote
I know. And there's a relation between electrical particles and Fire though

But it's not electricity.

Chemical reaction involves making and breaking electronic bonding between atoms and molecules.

These kind of reaction happens all the time in your body. But you would not say you are made of electricity would you?

It would be nonsense.

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Fire is chemical reaction because there's Oxygen (maybe other substance i forgot), Oxygen's built of electrical substance ( positive, negative, and neutral).

All atoms have electrons :-)

Quote
You mentioned Quran & Jin, so i said in Quran it's written that Jinn was made of "smokeless fire".
And so you blame me for that. Huh? umm.. as you wish

Yes. That is why it says in the Quran. Smokeless Fire is not not electricity because Fire is a chemical reaction and Electricity is not.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #638 - November 24, 2009, 02:48 PM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 02:43 PM
Im curious about the verses, can you quote them ?

Here find this one - God claims :

"There is nothing like him"

So he is not part of nature.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #639 - November 24, 2009, 02:50 PM

Quote
Is there any proof that sensory illusion that some people see and talk with the same object at the same time ?

Yes, its a well known and well researched phenomena, and it permeates all cultures and is given the name of whatever local superstition surrounds the people experiencing the illusion. If you were European you would be playing with Ouija boards by now.

Quote
Jin dont exist based on what if there's no research?

Its up to those bringing a positive claim to produce evidence. You are the one bringing the claim- where is your evidence?

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #640 - November 24, 2009, 02:53 PM

Quote from: trumora on November 24, 2009, 02:26 PM
It's amazing what we miss while sleeping. I mean, 5 more pages or so? Wow....

I don't care if the Qu'ran or anything else says I'm going to Hell because I don't believe in Hell. Was one of the problems I had while looking into Islam.

Gatty, you sound sufi sometimes. And I think, although I believe in some of the things you are saying - but probably in a different way - it's hard to make your point go accross to people who don't believe in what they call "imaginary friends" (no, it wasn't sarcastic. I actually find this expression amusing and smart. My atheists friends here use it too.). This because it's two different spheres of thinking. Not that you can't discuss it, but it's a hard game, especially in a forum and with no drinks. ( You can have some coffee when you are Muslim)

Yeah, it's like mixing water & oil, the discussion will never find a meeting point. And it's getting tiring, i think i could use some sleep.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #641 - November 24, 2009, 03:37 PM

Quote
Yeah, it's like mixing water & oil, the discussion will never find a meeting point

If you constantly change the meaning of words. How we to find a meeting point?

If we are constantly educating you on the things you write. How we to find the meeting point?

I suggest you read up on the things you want to debate.

It will make it easier for you and everyone else.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #642 - November 24, 2009, 03:40 PM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 02:21 PM
I know, one Quran definition about Jin was that the jinn was made of "smokeless fire". Fire's substance is oxygen (mabe there're more than just oxygen but i forgot), and it sometimes can or cant be seen. All i know that oxygen consists of atoms, and in atom there're electrical particles (electron/negative, proton/positive, or neutron/neutral). As for how oxygen can produce heat ? i dont know that.

A lot of people think that their book matches their personal beliefs.
i.e.: i think hell is bad, so clearly my book has a way to explain hell away. Here is the allegory...
or i.e.: i think stealing is bad, so obviously my book is against stealing. Here is the allegory..

You however, are the first muslim I ever seen, that actually turned a subject from high school chemistry into allegory. See what happens, when you turn anything into a wishy-washy subject that means nothing? you end up saying things that mean nothing. And inventing nothing. And creating nothing. And contributing nothing. And your entire society, once they follow your belief, will contribute nothing to you as well.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #643 - November 24, 2009, 03:43 PM

Quote
You however, are the first muslim I ever seen, that actually turned a subject from high school chemistry into allegory. See what happens, when you turn anything into a wishy-washy subject that means nothing? you end up saying things that mean nothing. And inventing nothing. And creating nothing. And contributing nothing.

I have met many like this. I have met people who have taken Quranic verses and told me they are refering to modern particle physics!

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #644 - November 24, 2009, 04:42 PM

Oh I have met those too Rubaiyat, Christians even more. Marginalize the religion till it fits the Science.

But this is different, this is actually making allegory out of the high-school Science. Marginalizing entry-level Science, to make it fit. Never seen it by a muslim before. I am sure it happens, it is just it is the first time I witness it.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #645 - November 24, 2009, 06:09 PM

Quote from: Ibn Saba on November 24, 2009, 02:26 PM
I think it was Ahmadi's, or another sect in Islam, that argues that hell is not eternal. So yes, there are some Muslims, whether the majority of Muslims agree if they are within the fold of Islam or not, that believe hell is not forever. Not all Muslims believe hell is eternal, or that all non-Muslims will be punished.

It is also the view of ibn Arabi and ibn Taymiya -- they believed that the fires of hell would eventually be extinguished. But you know, until then, people will be mercilessly tortured. It's true that not all Muslims believe that all non-Muslims will burn eternally, but it is true that an overwhelming majority of them do.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #646 - November 24, 2009, 06:14 PM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 05:10 AM
According to 2:62, and some other verses in Al Baqarah, and also according to me.

Does anyone else find it interesting how many hadith rejecting, progressive, heterodox Muslims seem to find their way here? I don't know if they really are holding such beleifs that "according to me" I make Islam or "hadith are to be rejected" or if it's just a dawah thing, but it's just terribly fascinating how all these Muslims who pop up here to tell us how bad Kim is or how bad we are tend not be run of the mill sunnis.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #647 - November 24, 2009, 06:36 PM

gatty, do you think it is reasonable to burn the skin off the unbelievers and then replace it again, so they can keep suffering for ever and ever?
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #648 - November 24, 2009, 10:21 PM

Hassan : well, Jin can be destroyed (by being burnt, i havent known any other way to destroy Jin other than burning it), and human soul's immortal (ive never smell/witness or experienced anyone destroy/burn human soul), so yeah it makes sense to me..

Rubaiyat : Thats not the case, i always explained everything you asked or blamed on me. I believe in Jin, you dont believe it, i believe in the unseen, many others dont. Thats why we're like water & oil, i agree what Trumora said. And if some people always trying to find mistakes from me or calling me names, or forcing their belief just because i have different view i think it's normal.. it could happen in real life not just internet, thats just life.

"Unto you your belief, unto me my belief" then.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #649 - November 24, 2009, 10:23 PM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 24, 2009, 02:48 PM

Here find this one - God claims :

"There is nothing like him"

So he is not part of nature.

Then maybe himself IS nature or it's actually everywhere ? I read that Einstein was very close to find the substance of God, but i forget the whole story.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #650 - November 24, 2009, 10:25 PM

Quote from: Baal on November 24, 2009, 03:40 PM
A lot of people think that their book matches their personal beliefs.
i.e.: i think hell is bad, so clearly my book has a way to explain hell away. Here is the allegory...
or i.e.: i think stealing is bad, so obviously my book is against stealing. Here is the allegory..

You however, are the first muslim I ever seen, that actually turned a subject from high school chemistry into allegory. See what happens, when you turn anything into a wishy-washy subject that means nothing? you end up saying things that mean nothing. And inventing nothing. And creating nothing. And contributing nothing. And your entire society, once they follow your belief, will contribute nothing to you as well.

The Jin subject could mean "Nothing" to you, but it does mean something for me (Personally). Okay, if that what you think then think as you wish.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- Iblis
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #651 - November 24, 2009, 10:29 PM

Kimdonesia, I can't find your channel.. I see lots of vids of responses to you, but not your channel itself.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #652 - November 24, 2009, 10:32 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on November 24, 2009, 10:29 PM
Kimdonesia, I can't find your channel.. I see lots of vids of responses to you, but not your channel itself.

there's this: http://www.youtube.com/user/ExKimDonesia

and this: http://www.youtube.com/user/KimDonesia

but no videos anymore.

tea and cake or death!!!

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #653 - November 24, 2009, 10:35 PM

I think your brave btw. A lot of white converts to Islam come in naively into the faith and it's too late before they realise that they just walked into a wolves lair. Most westerners, coming from open-minded cultures, are simply ignorant of the vicious and bullying nature of the 'true' believers. It's really a giant cult.. a cult that you cannot leave... on the pain of death.

Everytime I see these poor white girls getting seduced by many of us Muslim men (we're good eh lol) and then embracing the religion and I just think "damn she is totally fucked". Just be happy you got out of the cult before it became too late.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #654 - November 24, 2009, 11:03 PM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 24, 2009, 02:46 PM
But it's not electricity.

Chemical reaction involves making and breaking electronic bonding between atoms and molecules.

These kind of reaction happens all the time in your body. But you would not say you are made of electricity would you?

It would be nonsense.

All atoms have electrons :-)

Yes. That is why it says in the Quran. Smokeless Fire is not not electricity because Fire is a chemical reaction and Electricity is not.

Ofc i know all atom has electron, proton, and neutron. I think my body contains electricity, cos sometimes when i close to someone i get electrical shock on my skin (my arms and hands).

Now im thinking "smokeless fire" could be Oxygen. hmm..

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #655 - November 24, 2009, 11:20 PM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 10:21 PM
Hassan : well, Jin can be destroyed (by being burnt, i havent known any other way to destroy Jin other than burning it), and human soul's immortal (ive never smell/witness or experienced anyone destroy/burn human soul), so yeah it makes sense to me..

Huh? Sorry, I don't understand why you are talking about Jinn?

I'm asking you a simple question.

The Qur'an says that God will keep torturing disbelievers for eternity.

Do you think that is reasonable?
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #656 - November 24, 2009, 11:22 PM

Quote from: Manat on November 24, 2009, 06:14 PM
Does anyone else find it interesting how many hadith rejecting, progressive, heterodox Muslims seem to find their way here? I don't know if they really are holding such beleifs that "according to me" I make Islam or "hadith are to be rejected" or if it's just a dawah thing, but it's just terribly fascinating how all these Muslims who pop up here to tell us how bad Kim is or how bad we are tend not be run of the mill sunnis.

True. Except, I think, for that one girl who said we were all going to burn in hell in all capitals. What the hell was her name? It`s awesome though. Because of Kim, we`ve gotten like 17 new people in a week

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #657 - November 24, 2009, 11:25 PM

Quote from: Hassan on November 24, 2009, 11:20 PM
Huh? Sorry, I don't understand why you are talking about Jinn?

I'm asking you a simple question.

The Qur'an says that God will keep torturing disbelievers for eternity.

Do you think that is reasonable?

For some reason jinn seem to be the basis of her arguments

"We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #658 - November 24, 2009, 11:27 PM

Hassan : Yes, it's reasonable, the reason is my experience with burning the jin to death (and no experience with burning human soul to death).

Angel54 : i dont expect people to believe me either.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #659 - November 24, 2009, 11:29 PM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 11:27 PM
Hassan : Yes, it's reasonable, the reason is my experience with burning the jin to death (and no experience with burning human soul).

gatty, what has torturing unbelievers got to do with Jinn? I don't understand. Could you please explain.
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