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Theme Changer

 Topic: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

 (Read 190066 times)
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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #780 - November 25, 2009, 06:38 PM

    Even in that verse it means "hit".

    But that's irrelevant to the verse in question where  it means a husband can hit his wife - nothing else.

    You are either ignorant or a liar.

    Again I ask you to show me ONE classical scholar to back up your claim.

    You can't - because for 1400 years all the Muslims knew it meant "hit".

    But now a few Qur'an-only Muslims - most who don't know Arabic properly - suddenly discovered it doesn't mean hit at all.

    Yeah - whatever  Roll Eyes

    No, in that verse it does not mean to hit.
    And the verse in question does not necessarily mean that a husband can beat his wife. It can mean to separate from her for instance.
    I am neither ignorant or a liar. Let's be civilized.
    You asking me for a classical scholar to back me up is a logical fallacy in itself, an argument from authority. I can give you thousands of classical scholars that would be glad to tell you that Islam is the truth. How is that?
    How do you know Quran only Muslims do not know Arabic properly? And what makes you think you know Arabic more than them? Many Quran only Muslims are native speakers of Arabic just like you.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #781 - November 25, 2009, 06:38 PM

    You know leaving Islam is an education in itself - I never realised how deluded so many Muslims were until I looked at them from the other side of the fence. The scary thing is that I wonder if I was like that - it makes me feel a bit sick.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #782 - November 25, 2009, 06:39 PM

    Yea I think I was not very accurate with my original statement. No dishonesty here I assure you.
    1. Communism was founded by Marx.
    2. The Communism of Marx was founded on dialectical materialism.
    3. Dialiectical materialism says that matter/energy is all there is and there will be.
    4. So according to dialectical materialism, an immaterial entity such as God or the soul does not exist.

    If these 4 statements are true then I honestly can see no way how someone can harmonize Communism with the existence of God.


    Easlily.  Communism is a...

    Quote
    socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

    Not necessary to suscribe to dialectical materialism in order to be a Communist which is why many Communists aren't atheists.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #783 - November 25, 2009, 06:40 PM

    Yeah, sorry to tell you Salem but you can call an orange an apple all day long. For years even. But an orange will always be an orange.

    Your lame attempt at redefining "hit" just makes you look rather deluded and wishful. Its not a good line of debating frankly. You can just say something like "it does not apply anymore" or something and that'd make more sense.

    Hit is hit. I'm afraid you're a one-man sect.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #784 - November 25, 2009, 06:41 PM

    No, in that verse it does not mean to hit.
    And the verse in question does not necessarily mean that a husband can beat his wife. It can mean to separate from her for instance.
    I am neither ignorant or a liar. Let's be civilized.
    You asking me for a classical scholar to back me up is a logical fallacy in itself, an argument from authority. I can give you thousands of classical scholars that would be glad to tell you that Islam is the truth. How is that?
    How do you know Quran only Muslims do not know Arabic properly? And what makes you think you know Arabic more than them? Many Quran only Muslims are native speakers of Arabic just like you.

    Regards,


    I said show me ONE classical scholar who says that this verse means anything other than to hit.

    Just ONE - out of 1400 years of classical Islamic Scholarship.

  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #785 - November 25, 2009, 06:42 PM

    lol Hassan.. I think that one scholar is Salem111  Roll Eyes

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #786 - November 25, 2009, 06:42 PM

    Being heretical, what makes you so sure that you're following real Islam? Again you're trying to argue for your brand but nothing about it screams "Oh, this is how Islam is meant to be practiced!" Rejecting the hadith for being written 200 yrs after the prophet is logical, but it leads to problems. And you said you believe in 5 daily prayers right?

    1. What makes me sure I am following real Islam? That's off topic do not you think? This whole discussion is off topic do not you think?
    2. How rejecting the Hadiths leads to problems I do not know.
    3. Yes I believe in 5 daily prayers. Now you are going to ask me the usual question. How do you know how to pray? Smiley

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #787 - November 25, 2009, 06:44 PM

    OMG. +1 +1 +1 +1  Narcissist 001_wub eddie worship

    What is that supposed to mean anyway? Please read my response to him.
    Did you make a response to me in this thread Manat? This thread has grown so massively that I cannot figure if someone responded to me or not while I was away.
    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #788 - November 25, 2009, 06:44 PM

    How do you know how to pray?

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #789 - November 25, 2009, 06:44 PM

    No, in that verse it does not mean to hit.
    And the verse in question does not necessarily mean that a husband can beat his wife. It can mean to separate from her for instance.
    I am neither ignorant or a liar. Let's be civilized.
    You asking me for a classical scholar to back me up is a logical fallacy in itself, an argument from authority. I can give you thousands of classical scholars that would be glad to tell you that Islam is the truth. How is that?
    How do you know Quran only Muslims do not know Arabic properly? And what makes you think you know Arabic more than them? Many Quran only Muslims are native speakers of Arabic just like you.

    Regards,


    What does "for instance" mean? Because "beat" is out, you now have license to insert whatever word you choose? I think when it was written, it only meant one thing, so is it definitely separate?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #790 - November 25, 2009, 06:46 PM

    What is that supposed to mean anyway? Please read my response to him.
    Did you make a response to me in this thread Manat? This thread has grown so massively that I cannot figure if someone responded to me or not while I was away.
    Regards,

    She's agreeing with you (OMG= oh my god, +1 = agree, smileys = worship)

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #791 - November 25, 2009, 06:47 PM

    You know leaving Islam is an education in itself - I never realised how deluded so many Muslims were until I looked at them from the other side of the fence. The scary thing is that I wonder if I was like that - it makes me feel a bit sick.

    1. To you leaving Islam is an education. To others it is ignorance. No offence to anyone here. I do not believe you are ignorant at all.
    2. To you Muslims might seem very deluded. I assure that to them you also seem very deluded.
    3. I wish you never feel sick.

    Regards, Smiley

  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #792 - November 25, 2009, 06:49 PM

    I believe you are wrong here, but I could be wrong here too. A materialist, or in another way, a naturalist, believes there is no supernaturalist powers, including God. Right?


    See my edited response above. As Marx himself acknowledged that non-atheist communism existed before his own theory was developed, and as non-Marxian communism existed contemporary with Marxian communism, and continues to exist today, there's no way out of this for you. You were, and continue to be, dead wrong on this topic.

    And you're wrong on this particular point as well-- Deists are for most purposes materialists, but also believe in the supernatural. Same goes for many other religious people. You can believe in God but for practical purposes be a materialists-- indeed, even the most devout religious people are for the most part. But again, Communism, being a secular ideology, does not require that you believe everything that Marx (or anyone else) believed or that you think in exactly the same way.

    You are being incredibly and frustratingly thick about this.

    Yea I think I was not very accurate with my original statement. No dishonesty here I assure you.
    1. Communism was founded by Marx.


    WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! Marx himself acknowledged this was not the case. Can't you fucking read? God you are ignorant and dense.

    Quote
    2. The Communism of Marx was founded on dialectical materialism.
    3. Dialiectical materialism says that matter/energy is all there is and there will be.
    4. So according to dialectical materialism, an immaterial entity such as God or the soul does not exist.


    Yes, but postulating the existence of a God which created matter/energy and put things into motion does not automatically negate the existence of Marx's historical dialectic. Fuck, man, Marx got the whole idea of a historical dialectic from Hegel, who was not an atheist or reductive materialist. Marx added the material angle specifically regarding economics and class struggle, but you don't have to be a fucking reductive materialist to accept the idea of class struggle, the existence of a dialectic, the idea of positive historical/social/economic progress, or the labor theory of value.

    Fuck you are pissing me off with your ignorance and stubbornness.

    Quote
    If these 4 statements are true then I honestly can see no way how someone can harmonize Communism with the existence of God.


    By not being a fuckin stubborn idiot.

    Easlily.  Communism is a...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

    Not necessary to suscribe to dialectical materialism in order to be a Communist which is why many Communists aren't atheists.


    Right, there have been many prominent Communists since at least Rosa Luxemburg who questioned or even rejected dialectical materialism outright, and not because they believed in the supernatural either.

    fuck you
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #793 - November 25, 2009, 06:50 PM

    1. What makes me sure I am following real Islam? That's off topic do not you think? This whole discussion is off topic do not you think?
    2. How rejecting the Hadiths leads to problems I do not know.
    3. Yes I believe in 5 daily prayers. Now you are going to ask me the usual question. How do you know how to pray? Smiley

    Regards,


    Its not off-topic. This thread has run the gamit from Kim to unbelievers burning in hell and real, true, genuine, indisputable Islam, so nope not at all.

    And I don't care about how you pray at all. what I was going to ask is why do you believe in 5 daily prayers if its not in quran? I know you could argue that its not a violation since it says to pray 3 times(is that right?), but God didn't ordain 5, so why stick to something that comes from the hadith?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #794 - November 25, 2009, 06:52 PM

    Only good people go to Hell. Those who reject the truth are certainly not good people. If I tell him about genuine, real Islam and yet he rejects it, then it means that he is not a good person and would go to Hell anyway whether I had told him about Islam or notMaximum sins deserve maximum punishments. That is not a "game of semantics". That is justice. And what is a maximum punishment? Eternal Hell.But I would still believe in God, His books, angels etc... which is still not like Buddhism.
    Regards,


    And what would the truth about real, genuine Islam be? That you have to believe in God, AND believe in a single God to be eligible for Paradise?

    Otherwise, you're doomed.

    a) There's no absolute proof of God.

    b) No proof that there's a single God, as opposed to 2, 3, 4 or more, all the prrofs of a Single God can be used for many Gods, there's nothing to prove that many God\s didn't collaborate to make the Universe.

    But Islam will send people to Hell for that.

    Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeedl? (Q.4: 48).

    Also, Allah will burn all Christians who believe in the Trinity in Hell, which is basically all Christians!

    They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ? Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (Q 5:72 )


    I know trinity believing Christians & many gods believing Hindus who're very good people, I know agnostic Buddhists who're good people. I know people who aren't sure of God's existence & think that it doesn't matter to lead a good life, but they lead a perfectly moral life.

    What stupendous arrogance on your part to claim that all these good people aren't good people coz they reject your views of One Allah & His Judgment Day!  Cheesy

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #795 - November 25, 2009, 06:52 PM

    1. To you leaving Islam is an education. To others it is ignorance. No offence to anyone here. I do not believe you are ignorant at all.
    2. To you Muslims might seem very deluded. I assure that to them you also seem very deluded.
    3. I wish you never feel sick.

    Regards, Smiley

    Will agree with this point. Unfortunately, everything becomes so subjective, you end up running around in circles.




    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #796 - November 25, 2009, 06:53 PM

    Easlily.  Communism is a...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

    Not necessary to suscribe to dialectical materialism in order to be a Communist which is why many Communists aren't atheists.

    That is a very broad definition. To get a sense of what Marx, the founder of Communism really believed read this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism
    Marxism is the political philosophy and economic worldview based upon a materialist interpretation of history, a Marxist analysis of capitalism, a theory of social change, and an atheist view of human liberation derived from the work of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels;

    Many Communists are not atheists? Well, at least I hope so. Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #797 - November 25, 2009, 06:56 PM

    Quote
    Yeah, sorry to tell you Salem but you can call an orange an apple all day long. For years even. But an orange will always be an orange.

    True.
    Quote
    Your lame attempt at redefining "hit" just makes you look rather deluded and wishful. Its not a good line of debating frankly. You can just say something like "it does not apply anymore" or something and that'd make more sense.

    It is not lame. If I knew it was lame I would not have advocated it.
    Daraba has several other meanings than hit. Fact.
    Quote
    Hit is hit. I'm afraid you're a one-man sect.

    I am not. Thank you.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #798 - November 25, 2009, 06:59 PM

    That is a very broad definition. To get a sense of what Marx, the founder of Communism really believed read this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism
    Marxism is the political philosophy and economic worldview based upon a materialist interpretation of history, a Marxist analysis of capitalism, a theory of social change, and an atheist view of human liberation derived from the work of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels;

    Many Communists are not atheists? Well, at least I hope so. Smiley



    FUCKING READ! Marx did not found Communism-- he said so himself. There are non-Marxian versions of Communism-- always have been, and even the Marxian versions don't require one to believe in every single thing Marx ever said. There have been many prominent Marxists who have disagreed with things Marx has said (including Lenin and his contemporaries), and, in fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a single Marxist who can find no error or point of disagreement in Marx's writings. Yes, there are many dogmatic/doctrinaire Marxists who treat Communism as if it were a religion, and Marx's writings as if they were holy texts-- but it's not a fuckin religion, which means that no Communist is obligated to treat Marx as the final authority on all matters or everything he wrote as inerrant canon.

    Get that through your fuckin thick skull. It's like debating with a fuckin rock.

    fuck you
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #799 - November 25, 2009, 07:01 PM

    Well even if Salem's arguments are ridiculous, he's a pretty polite/nice fellow at least. Most Muslims reacting to apostates tend to be very rude and insulting. So good on you.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #800 - November 25, 2009, 07:04 PM


    FUCKING READ! Marx did not found Communism-- he said so himself. There are non-Marxian versions of Communism-- always have been, and even the Marxian versions don't require one to believe in every single thing Marx ever said. There have been many prominent Marxists who have disagreed with things Marx has said (including Lenin and his contemporaries), and, in fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a single Marxist who can find no error or point of disagreement in Marx's writings. Yes, there are many dogmatic/doctrinaire Marxists who treat Communism as if it were a religion, and Marx's writings as if they were holy texts-- but it's not a fuckin religion, which means that no Communist is obligated to treat Marx as the final authority on all matters or everything he wrote as inerrant canon.

    Get that through your fuckin thick skull. It's like debating with a fuckin rock.

    Whoa calm down lady. It is only a conversation on an internet forum for God's sake. OK got it. Why the curses and rudeness? You are the poster of the month. Live up to your title.

    Regards, Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #801 - November 25, 2009, 07:06 PM

    Quote
    That is a very broad definition.


    No, Salem it isn't.  That is the definition of Communism.  It is your definition of Communism which is artificially narrow, probly because you are projecting your own feelings about the Qur'an and Mohammed onto Das Kapital and Marx. 

    Bottom line - the South American Communists who are also Christians are just as "genuine" Communists as you are a "genuine" muslim.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #802 - November 25, 2009, 07:07 PM

    I said show me ONE classical scholar who says that this verse means anything other than to hit.

    Just ONE - out of 1400 years of classical Islamic Scholarship.



    Which is a logical fallacy. Why are asking for a classical scholar and not a modern one for instance? What qualifies a "classical" scholar as better than a modern scholar? Do you see the absurdity of your demand? Daraba does not necessarily mean to hit. You know it and I know it.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #803 - November 25, 2009, 07:08 PM

    lol Hassan.. I think that one scholar is Salem111  Roll Eyes

    No I am not. I am not a classical scholr (I was born in the second half of the last century) and I am not a modern one. I am your average Muslim. Welcome! Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #804 - November 25, 2009, 07:09 PM

    Well even if Salem's arguments are ridiculous, he's a pretty polite/nice fellow at least. Most Muslims reacting to apostates tend to be very rude and insulting. So good on you.


    I know, I know. It's just so fuckin frustrating when someone stubbornly digs in their heels on a topic and refuses to even consider they might be wrong despite overwhelming evidence that they are wrong. When it comes to religion it's understandable, it's based on faith after all, but damn, I'm not even trying to question his religion or faith in the man in the sky-- I just defended it, in fact. And that's what's pissing me off even more-- the sheer hypocrisy of it all-- "I get to call myself a Muslim even though my views are extremely heterodox, but I'm going to tell you what a 'true Communist' is based on one component of the beliefs of one Commie who died fucking centuries ago, and no one can tell me otherwise"

    Whoa calm down lady. It is only a conversation on an internet forum for God's sake. OK got it. Why the curses and rudeness? You are the poster of the month. Live up to your title.

    Regards, Smiley


    Because you're driving me nuts, man. I don't care if someone disagrees with me, but when they stubbornly refuse to even consider they might be wrong on something despite overwhelming evidence that they are, and refuse to consider the other person's points, it really pisses me off. We had another poster like that who really got under my skin and brought out the worst in me, but he ain't here anymore. The fact you're being patently hypocritical about the whole thing only annoys me more.

    fuck you
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #805 - November 25, 2009, 07:09 PM

    Quote
    Which is a logical fallacy. Why are asking for a classical scholar and not a modern one for instance?


    And its absolutely hilarious that you can see that about Islam, but no amount of being told will get you to see it about Marx and Communism.  The selective blindness of the religious never ceases to amaze me.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #806 - November 25, 2009, 07:14 PM

    This is another of my favorite surahs salem, those who disbelieve in Hell will enter it.

    052.013
    YUSUFALI: That Day shall they be thrust down to the Fire of Hell, irresistibly.
    PICKTHAL: The day when they are thrust with a (disdainful) thrust, into the fire of hell
    SHAKIR: The day on which they shall be driven away to the fire of hell with violence.

    052.014
    YUSUFALI: "This:, it will be said, "Is the Fire,- which ye were wont to deny!
    PICKTHAL: (And it is said unto them): This is the Fire which ye were wont to deny.
    SHAKIR: This is the fire which you used to give the lie to.


    052.015
    YUSUFALI: "Is this then a fake, or is it ye that do not see?
    PICKTHAL: Is this magic, or do ye not see?
    SHAKIR: Is it magic then or do you not see?

    Many people can't believe in Hell, anymore than people can't believe in say reincarnation. These are concepts of the Afterlife with no proof.

    So a non believer will laugh at the tales of Hell & the grotesque punishments in it, like a Muslim would laugh at stories of reincarnations & memories of an ancient Egyptian life. Yet a devout Muslim from say Yemen will find hell no joking matter, like a devout Buddhist from Bhutan would accept reincarnation as perfectly plausible.

    Its natural for people to disbelieve in unprovable & fantastical concepts of the afterlife, especially if they differ from what they've grown up listening to. A Finnish atheist would probably disbelieve in both & laugh about both.

    So for this simple disbelief, Allah will torture them eternally?

    Newton gave more proof for gravity & Einstein for relativity than Allah for His Hell, yet I doubt Newton or Einstein would advocate extreme torture for those who simply don't accept their theories.




    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #807 - November 25, 2009, 07:16 PM

    Cheetah I already said that I was wrong about Marx. Read my last response to Q-Man.
    Quote
    The selective blindness of the religious never ceases to amaze me.

    That is inappropriate. I already said to Q-Man that I was wrong about Marx. There is no selective blindness here and I am not dogmatic at all. I hope the same applies to you, too.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #808 - November 25, 2009, 07:17 PM

    How do you know how to pray?

    The way Muslims pray today has been transfered from generation to generation since the time of Prophet Muhammad.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #809 - November 25, 2009, 07:19 PM

    What does "for instance" mean? Because "beat" is out, you now have license to insert whatever word you choose? I think when it was written, it only meant one thing, so is it definitely separate?

    My point was to show him that daraba has several meanings. I specifically mentioned separate for a reason. Afro
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