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Theme Changer

 Topic: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #900 - November 26, 2009, 04:04 AM

    I'm not sure, but I think everyone's just about given up on this Rashna lol. Unless, of course, someone sends this off in another direction again. It's kinda fun for some time dance.


     Cheesy

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #901 - November 26, 2009, 04:23 AM

    Lol. grin12 Here's another topic. Is it men that get "voluptuous women of equal age" or men and women that get "splendid companions, well-matched". I believe Salem (or someone else) doesn't believe there's sex in heaven. What's the point of being "wed" to them if there's no sex?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #902 - November 26, 2009, 06:17 AM

    Quote
    Again, there's no asis to claim that a God would be so offended by His rejection or people believing that He's more than one that He'd want to roast people forever! That doesn't show a very good Being, rather a big bully & insecure being! Allah should've been called "The most insecure" rather than "The most merciful"

    Rejection truth is wrong. If God's existence is shown and it is still rejected then that deserves punishment accordingly.
    Quote
    Again, read my response above.

    If God exists doesn't give any indication of His character, He might want to roast people for some years, or not at all!

    He might be confident & merciful enough to not care anything for disbelief!

    If God exists then He is just. We can derive the attributes of God from His creation.
    Justice entails that the wrong be punished. Rejecting God is maximally wrong and so deserves maximum punishment.
    Establishing justice does not contradict confidence and mercy. If God does not care then it becomes unwise of Him to have created anything in the first place.
    Quote
    No doubt, a child too would explain that a rejector of Santa deserves no presents!

    False analogy. Even if Santa exists and some child rejects him, that would prevent him from getting presents from but not from his parents or elder siblings for instance.
    Next time, try to tackle my argument but you know you cannot and instead opted for this.
    Quote
    I have read the Quran, & my objections are on plenty more points than Hell alone. I have read the Quran & come to the conclusion that its one of the most vile books ever written, if not the most! In many ways, too many to enumerate.I know quite a few others who have come to that conclusion, like the recent case of Sebastian Faulks.

    Fair enough. That is your opinion and I respect it even though I obviously disagree with it. For me the Quran contains truth, justice and mercy. And I know others who have come to that conclusion too.
    Quote
    And many people have come to disbelieve in God altogether after rational thought, many have believed in many gods, many have reached a conclusion that God shouldn't care if they believe or not.

    That's debatable.
    Quote
    Anyways, thanks. If I believed in another religion, with your kind of preaching, I would become even more devoted to that religion.

    I was not preaching.
    Quote
    As it happens, my agnosticism has grown, thanks to your preaching.

    And so did your dogmatism and irrationality.
    Anyway, you are welcome.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #903 - November 26, 2009, 06:17 AM

    Quote
    Your own definition. Not the Quran's. Once is enough.

    No, the Quran distinguishes between committing something once or even a few times, and between continuously committing that same thing until it becomes an attribute of the person.
    Quote
    No indication of continuation.

    Different languages that do not even belong to the same family of languages.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #904 - November 26, 2009, 06:17 AM

    Quote
    Actually the pagans did often mock & point errors,

    Mocking is easy. Anyone can mock anything he wants.
    Pointed errors? No, not at all. If they pointed errors none would have believed in Islam.
    Quote
    but Muhammad managed to slaughter all the definat & forcibly convert the rest, but those stuff are there're in hadiths, which you choose to reject as inconveninet!

    No, not because they are inconvenient. I reject them because they are ahistorical. If it was a matter of convenience I would have only rejected the bad Hadiths. I have integrity and reject all of them, the good and the bad, because they are ahistorical.
    Quote
    Again, there's no basis for this claim. The Creator might not care whether we believe or disbelieve, but I know you'd be ready with your strawmen.

    If God were not to care about His creation, then why did He create them in the first place? A God who does not distinguish the good from the bad, who treats both good people and bad people equally is not a just, fair God. That is not strawman, that's common sense.
    Quote
    As I said, youd be terrific at increasing people's disbelief! We had a Christian missionary many months back, who possessed the same capacity to turn people off Xtianity! 

    You & he could debate sometime!

    If this how you think then why do you bother responding?

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #905 - November 26, 2009, 06:18 AM

    Seriously salem, I know that many of us don't understand Arabic, but we all do understand English.

    So we need to forgo all our knowledge of Arabic and English, accept your unprovable claims as definitions & pure logic & submit to Al or burn eternally?  Cheesy

    Even if the Quran wasn't such a vile book, such self delusion would be difficult.  Wink

    Please read my response to this above.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #906 - November 26, 2009, 06:18 AM

    Quote
    wrong. You are lying. Stop lying.

    It is not wrong and I am not lying. Be civilized please. You can point out where I made an error in a respectable way.
    Quote
    Wrong. You are lying. Stop lying. Notice your first statement negates the possibility of beating. Your Second statement uses the 'not necessarily'. Contradictions are not necessarily lies, but in your case it is.

    Again stop with this please.
    The verse in question does not mean to hit. The Quran commands us in several verses to treat women humanely. Idrib as "hit" becomes inconsistent with this, but as "to separate" the whole text becomes meaningful.
    Quote
    No that would be "Idrabou 'Anhun", and even then, it really does not mean to separate. Stop lying.

    No, idribu can mean to separate or put forth.
    Quote
    Hassan means to get him a scholar who does not lie. You are of course welcome to bring any scholar you want. But if you bring a liar, then you might as well be the liar. so stop lying (re: to separate). My favorite is the one with "beat them an example".

    And anyone who disagrees with you that idrib means to separate will be of course labelled a liar. Smiley
    Even if, for the sake of the argument, I did not bring any scholar, that would not prove anything because your demand is based on a logical fallacy.
    Quote
    Because if the readers do understand what they read, they will go:
    "Holy Sh!t! There is not enough material here to make a religion, we need hadith to understand this dribble"
    or they will go: "Of my god this is so empty, this book is morally bankrupt, I need to reduce the influence of those men/mullahs in my life, so I am going to start by turning them away from the hadith".

    The Quran was enough material for Muslims during the first two centuries of Islam. If they could live by it alone, so can we.
    Quote
    There is however a minority of koranists, who tried to defend their material then got so embarassed defending the hadith, that now they want to get rid of the hadith just so they can salvage dignity.

    Untrue. Quranis could have just adopted the good Hadiths and rejected the bad ones, which are few and disparate.
    Quote
    the vast vast majority of koran readers, do not want to understand what they are reciting.

    That is their fault.
    Quote
    It hurts muslim too much to find out so they look the other way and encourage each other and their kids to look the other way.

    What do you mean exactly here?
    Quote
    You talk to Christians and jews, and you will find they know their stories and their verses inside out, but you talk to muslims and you get the "Allahu Aalam".

    Regards,

    Muslims do know their stories and verses inside out. There is a ton of literature on this.
    A Muslim, or few Muslims, being ignorant of an issue does not mean that there are no people who got the answers. Sometimes some Jews or Christians fail to give rational justifications of some of their verses or stories.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #907 - November 26, 2009, 06:18 AM

    Quote
    A great amount of literature on something does not mean its true.

    True. And a great amount of literature against something does not mean it is untrue.
    Quote
    A great amount is written on how women are inferior to men in intelligence by learned people like Jamal Badawi.

    I disagree with him obviously.
    Quote
    You think my conclusions are baseless?

    Yes.
    Quote
    Ive been an apostate since June of this year and done research everyday since.

    What kind of research exactly? Whom are you reading for? What books, authors?
    Quote
    Not long maybe, but Ive done enough to want to pull my hair out at conclusions people come to. I've looked at both sides because I have to. I have to give both sides a fair chance to be able to come to my own rational conclusion. I do this to get closer to the truth.

    I hope you truly live to this.
    Quote
    10 years, I wont think any differently about Islam.

    That is dogmatic and dismissive. None knows the future. I am sure 10 years ago you thought that you would never reject Islam. People do change their opinions. It is not something to be ashamed of.
    Quote
    A book that tells me that I am my husband's tilth and that he can approach me as he likes is not a book for me.

    The Quran does not say that. Your husband "cultivates" you by you bearing children. The Quran does not say he can approach you as he likes, but as both of you like. It commands him of treating you mercifully. He should approach you at the place of the "tilth". That's all.
    Quote
    I believe in God as a deist, but a not a god that would restrict my rights like this.

    God does not restrict your rights as I explained. A Deist God is very irrational because he creates with no purpose. That's unwise.
    Quote
    Because of this verse, rape can't exist in a marriage.

    The Quran prohibits rape. Rape cannot indeed exist in marriage.
    Quote
    It angers me to no end that God doesn't  punish rape in the  Quran. Not fucking once. Not even if you nor the victim are unmarried(this isnt zina). Dont steal, have pre or extra marital sex, don't kill (depending on the situatuion), but not one "Don't rape women" or "Don't beat your wives". I've researched this very much. Read sites, articles, books, but nothing.This book is meant to be complete. I'm just wondering where these things are meant to be found. My own conscience? Then what do I need the Quran for?

    Rape is sex by force, and this is called aggression. Aggression in the Quran is a kind of fasad (Corruption), and the punishment for corruptors is 5:33.
    The Quran commands us to treat our wives mercifully which negates any kind of beating.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #908 - November 26, 2009, 06:19 AM

    Some translate it as such. Cant find the translation, but it's there.

    Really? That's weird.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #909 - November 26, 2009, 06:19 AM

    Huh? Do you accept it means hit now?

    No, I never did.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #910 - November 26, 2009, 06:19 AM

    Quote
    005.001
    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named: But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb: for Allah doth command according to His will and plan.

    What?? What's this got to do with divorce? This verse has nothing to do with divorce. You cant twist obligations to mean marriage too. And its not through the quran that women can stipulate divorce. This was made up based on nothin quranic. And I believe the man must agree first.

    The verse asks us to honour our contracts. Marriage contracts are one kind of those contracts. In a marriage contract the wife can put a condition that allows her to divorce her husband. No twisting here. Just a plain reading.
    Do you understand Arabic? I can send you a decent article that clarifies this.
    Quote
    You shouldve used verse 2 229

    002.229
    YUSUFALI: A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold Together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. It is not lawful for you, (Men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah; so do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (Themselves as well as others).

    Good on you. I appreciate your honesty and open-mindedness. Smiley

    Regards, Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #911 - November 26, 2009, 06:20 AM

    Quote
    That's fine - I did say that you could use something like مثلا previously.

    The problem is not that ضرب can't have different meaning but that in this verse it cannot.

    The object of the verb in the hit verse is هن (Them) in the verse you quote it  is مثلا (similitude).

    The verse you quote mean "God strike a similitude" the verse in Nisa 34 means "Hit them (the women)"

    It cannot mean strike a similitude - there is no word similtude (مثلا) there! It can not mean leave them alone as this requires a preposition. If daraba takes a direct object (and that object is not something like similitude) then it means hit it.

    You are begging the question here. Why should darab mean strike in the verse I quoted but not in 4:34? Earlier I gave you a verse about angels "yadriboon" dead people, but we know that that does not mean to hit, but to warn them of their punishment to come. We do not see dead bodies screaming from pain do we?
    Quote
    OK, so you can't show me ONE classical scholar who says it does NOT mean hit.

    Then please tell me ANY scholar who says it does NOT mean hit.

    I have not searched for any classical scholars in the first place. I think it is an illogical demand. I am going to have to search for them but that would take some time. I hope you understand.
    For modern scholars I would say Mohamad Shahrour, Gamal Albanna, and Nassr Hamed Abuzeid are some examples.
    Quote
    I'm now very curious. Is is this guy Rashad Khalifa or whatever his name is? The guy who founded the Qur'an-Only sect?

    Rashad Khalifa did not found the Quran only sect. The Quran only sect existed before Rashad Khalifa by 1200 years.
    Quote
    Apart from Qur'an-only sect - does anyone else believe it means something else?

    I would say yes, from what I have heard at least.
    Quote
    Do you believe it definitely does NOT mean "hit"

    Yes. If we take all the verses concerning women together, and we read a verse that says treat your women humanely, then it becomes clear that darab in 4:34 should not mean to hit but to separate.
    Quote
    Did Allah leave it open to confusion. Some Muslims hitting - some (a tiny fraction) 'leaving alone'?

    No He did not. If you read all the verses together you would know this.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #912 - November 26, 2009, 06:20 AM

    But it only means One thing in that verse, the examples he brought do not apply on this verse.

    No, I explained why those verses apply.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #913 - November 26, 2009, 06:21 AM

    Apart from prohiiting Alcohol (although it does not say this in the quran), I like your version of Islam  Afro

    The Quran does prohibit alcohol. Alcohol is bad for your health. That's science. It is even bad for society as a whole. Do you know how many families break up because of alcohol problems?

    Thank you for the compliment. If you like my version of Islam, what's stopping you from embracing it? Afro

    Regards, Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #914 - November 26, 2009, 06:21 AM

    Qataa = Cut
    Yad = hand

    Stop lying. This is not an Ajami mosque where you can go and bully people with language and hope their faith will protect you from questions.

    Read verse 12:31. Qataa does not necessarily mean to cut off and same goes for Yad.
    I know that this is not "Ajami" mosque (As if mosques were divided into "Ajami" and "Arabi"). People can ask questions in all mosques. I know that there are native speakers of Arabic here like Hassan.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #915 - November 26, 2009, 06:21 AM

    Yea I know. Thats what Im saying. Edit- sorry I wasnt clear with the second sentence. I meant thats what he wa trying to prove, not disprove.

    Please read my latest post on this above.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #916 - November 26, 2009, 06:22 AM

    Salem could you provide some insight as to the following?

    Here is a transliteration of verse 16:66:

    Wa-inna lakum fee al-anAAami laAAibratan nusqeekum mimma fee butoonihi min bayni farthin wadamin labanan khalisan sa-ighan lilshsharibeena

    and 23 21:

    Wa-inna lakum fee al-anAAami laAAibratan nusqeekum mimma fee butooniha walakum feeha manafiAAu katheeratun waminha ta/kuloona

    Could you please explain the butooniha/butoonihi difference?

    The first refers to a specific gender, females.
    The second refers to all animals.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #917 - November 26, 2009, 06:22 AM

    Saleem - are you follower of Rashad Kahlifa?


    He translates as mark I think not cut.

    I have debated this with many people.

    And the word is cut in the context the verse is written.



    No, I am not a follower of him.
    Qataa in the example I mentioned cannot mean to cut off.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #918 - November 26, 2009, 06:22 AM

    Khalifa or Yuksel probably. Probably the latter, since he translates idrib as separate. Khalifa says beat.

    None of them actually. I like Edip though.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #919 - November 26, 2009, 06:23 AM

    Hi Salem1111,

    Welcome to the forum. Hope you are enjoying the discussions here.

    I don't want you to answer this here because this thread has become extremely long, but I would appreciate it, if you could start another discussion (once you have finished on this thread) on what you have quoted above. Can you please outline the rational arguments for the existence of God and show me and the rest of us here why you think they are robust, if at all?

    Many Thanks.

    Thanks for the warm welcome brother. Smiley
    I would be glad to do this.

    Regards, Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #920 - November 26, 2009, 06:23 AM

    yeah, salem's Islam is the one I believed in before I apostated... Afro

    My Islam seems perfectly rational, at least to me.
    I respect your decision even though I disagree with it of course.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #921 - November 26, 2009, 06:23 AM

    Quote
    Hi salem!

    How can you give me two verses with no relation to each other & then expect me to accept? Do you think I am too ignorant to know & too lazy to check? 

    005.001
    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named: But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb: for Allah doth command according to His will and plan.
    PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Fulfil your indentures. The beast of cattle is made lawful unto you (for food) except that which is announced unto you (herein), game being unlawful when ye are on the pilgrimage. Lo! Allah ordaineth that which pleaseth Him.
    SHAKIR: O you who believe! fulfill the obligations. The cattle quadrupeds are allowed to you except that which is recited to you, not violating the prohibition against game when you are entering upon the performance of the pilgrimage; surely Allah orders what He desires.

    This verse talks about loads of stuff including eating animals with 4 feet, so Muslim women can eat 4 footed animals.

    But where does it mention women's right to include right to divorce in contract?

    You're a Quranist when it suits you, & a Quran + acceptor of Muslim social practices when you want. Becuse women make such contracts, I now have to assume it comes from the Quran? 

    1. I only gave you one verse. What 2 verses are you talking about?
    2. The verse talks of eating animals as a reward for believers fulfilling their contracts.
    3. The verse 5:1 does allow for the possibility that women demand a marriage contract and put their conditions in it. I know it does not mention it specifically, but it does allow for it. It does not prohibit it for instance.
    4. Verse 2:229 explicitly mentions that women can divorce their husbands if they wish.
    Quote
    The divorce verses are another instance of Muhammad's lack of equality & clarity, he forgot to mention entirely how women initiate divorces or women initiating any divorces.

    Read any modern law book, they'd be far more clear, you don't have to search a verse on say the nation's dietary prohibitions & general contracts to find mention about how women should initiate divorce.

    Read above.
    Modern law books cannot be compared with classical ancient books. Each has its literary style.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #922 - November 26, 2009, 06:24 AM

    75% of my posts have been in this one thread alone lol.

    Good for you! Afro
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #923 - November 26, 2009, 06:24 AM

    Quote
    Because your "pure logic" is like the science of detecting real witches from powerless ones!

    How was that? This is a meaningless statement with no substance in it.
    Quote
    Again, no evidence of His neccessarily existing.

    You do not understand the concept of God at all, unfortunately.
    If God does not exist necessarily, then there must have been a time when He did not exist, which is impossible. If the concept of God should make sense, then God must exist necessarily. An omnipotent Being does need anything else in order to exist.
    Quote
    Many philosophers have defined & explained God in various ways, many reject all ideas of God, others feel that a Creator should have no objections should people fail to worship Him, others have said that monotheism is doomed to be reduced to atheism by getting rid of the last remaining God & so on.

    You need to read far more than your Quran & Quran supporting philosophies.

    Give me a philosopher who thinks that if God exists, then He is not omnipotent, omniscient or good.
    We are not talking about religion, atheism or Deism here. We are talking about what it means to be God.
    Quote
    Ah, God might not feel any pain, but Muhammad would surely feel the pain of the loss of adherents!

    No He would not. Actually God orders Muhammad not to care for those who reject belief.
    Quote
    Thats why, even inspite of this one line, Muhammad had to fill his book with threats of Hellfire for the deniers & mockers.

    Establishing justice has nothing to do with threats, just like building jails has nothing to do with threat either.
    Quote
    The existence of multiple Gods isn't impossible at all, just as possible or impossible as a single god.

    Wrong.
    If multiples Gods exist, then each God must be limited in some way in order to allow for the existence of the other God/Gods. If the universe is limited, then it would need an unlimited Being to maintain it. Multiple Gods cannot do this because they themselves are limited.
    Quote
    Those are assumptions on your & the Quran's part that god must exist, He must be single & vehemently opposed to anyone thinking that He's more than one, & there can't be more gods.

    I am not assuming anything. I am saying that if, and I repeat if, God exists then He must be single. I explained why above.
    Quote
    No I'm Zoroastrian(look it up if you don't know)

    I know what it means. Thank you.
    Quote
    & agnostic about God.

    Strange, anyway.
    Quote
    Jews & Muslims aren't the only ones with single god.

    Yeah I know. Deists too. But the deist God creates for no purpose which makes Him unwise.
    Quote
    I find the philosophies of Buddhism(not Hinduism though) far more respectable than the Quran, infact probably any religious book I've read is less nasty than the Quran.

    Your opinion is very subjective and means nothing with all due respect.
    Quote
    First, there's no evidence for the type of godly truth that you claim has "evidence".

    Honestly this thread is not now proper to present evidence for the Godly truth.
    Quote
    Or that God cares if folks on earth can't believe in Him.

    If He does not care then He is unjust. If He treats good people and bad people equally then He is unjust.
    Quote
    Also, the bit about "Heavenly sin" is another laughable point! 

    Those things again exist in the believers' heads, unlike earthly sins.

    I was trying to simplify it for you. You just do not want to understand.
    Quote
    Refuting what you're saying is analogous to, "There are women with magical powers who can cause harm by calling Satan & jinns, so they must be killed. By definition, witches are such harmful women, refute that."

    That's not analogous at all. Satan and Jinn cannot cause physical harm anyway which renders your pathetic attempt useless.

    Regards.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #924 - November 26, 2009, 06:25 AM

    Lol. grin12 Here's another topic. Is it men that get "voluptuous women of equal age" or men and women that get "splendid companions, well-matched". I believe Salem (or someone else) doesn't believe there's sex in heaven. What's the point of being "wed" to them if there's no sex?

    There is no wedding in Paradise. Just a very normal life. We will be genderless, of one body/soul

    ""No man ever believes that the [Quran] means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means"- Shaw"

    That is a wrong and prejudicial statement I am afraid. Each text is governed by grammar rules and context. None can play with texts and give them whatever meanings he desires them to be.

    Regards, Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #925 - November 26, 2009, 06:30 AM

    Hello guys
    I believe I need to take a break from this forum since the atmosphere does not seem very healthy, with hate and swears coming at me left and right from some members. If anyone of you is interested in following up to a conversation on the existence of God or whether there is evidence for Islam he/she is welcome to my forum. You can find a link on my profile's page. Just to cut the road on anyone with any kind of accusation. Afro
    Thank you all and it was a pleasure talking to most of you guys here. God bless you and have a wonderful day.

    Regards, Smiley
    Bye.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #926 - November 26, 2009, 06:49 AM

    Well I guess Shaw is prejudicial then. Take it up with him. People do exactly that. The fact that there so many different kinds of true Islam proves just that. Its funny watching the bickering back and  forth over who has it. Its like a never-ending tennis match. An example is religious homosexuals who try to prove that religion- xtianity, judaism, islam are not against homosexual relations when their books obviously are. Its called cognitive dissonance. Its quite powerful in these people. I have heard people adamantly defend different meanings for idrib- beat, beat lightly, beat lightly with a miswak or hankie( Roll Eyes) separate, push away, have sex with, force, ignore, keep admonishing with examples. They all say they know what it means. well, who to listen to? How does one decide. This is further proof. An observation of how people interpret things. The quote is accurate. If the quran or torah or whatever says beat them, it means beat it. If it talks about boiling water on unbelievers heads 17 times, theyre metaphors. Oh, I see Roll Eyes. You throw that word prejudical around quite a bit, babe. Smiley

    Just a very normal life. Funny. others say otherwise, that its unimaginable bliss and such. And why does god spend time tellin people that theyll get houris whove never been touched by man or jinn? Who are these mates of modest gaze? 55:56

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #927 - November 26, 2009, 07:33 AM

    .......
    Obviously if something is my opinion, it's what I believe is right (to me, at least). Not everyone is going to agree my opinion is correct, and that's perfectly fine.


    With all due respect my friend. You might be making the relativist fallacy.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #928 - November 26, 2009, 07:51 AM

    The verse asks us to honour our contracts. Marriage contracts are one kind of those contracts. In a marriage contract the wife can put a condition that allows her to divorce her husband. No twisting here. Just a plain reading.
    Do you understand Arabic? I can send you a decent article that clarifies this.Good on you. I appreciate your honesty and open-mindedness. Smiley

    Regards, Smiley



    Again contracts, so what sort of contracts? Its utterly not clear, I don't understand Arabic & I'm no hypocrite like you to claim different menings of obvious words.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #929 - November 26, 2009, 08:05 AM

    Mocking is easy. Anyone can mock anything he wants.
    Pointed errors? No, not at all. If they pointed errors none would have believed in Islam.



    Uhm...ya they would. Heck, I know people who think The Forth Kind (Its a movie) was real. People are pretty easy to fool.

    ps. Point out errors is pretty easy. Its not a very well written book. Would you like to go though them one at a time?

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    Rejection truth is wrong. If God's existence is shown and it is still rejected then that deserves punishment accordingly.

    That's a pretty big 'if'.

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    If God exists then He is just. We can derive the attributes of God from His creation.

    How so?
    AIDS babies? Starvation? Cancer? Congenital disorders? The fact that 99.99999999999999% of his creation would kill you (and eventually will)?

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    Justice entails that the wrong be punished. Rejecting God is maximally wrong and so deserves maximum punishment.
    Establishing justice does not contradict confidence and mercy.


    That is a very primative and barbaric notion of justice. Justice entails the maximization of the total or average welfare across all relevant individuals. You are talking about retribution, aka payback, rather than maximization of welfare.

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    If God were not to care about His creation, then why did He create them in the first place?

     
    To worship him, sing his praises, and submit to his slavery....Didnt you read the quran?

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    A God who does not distinguish the good from the bad, who treats both good people and bad people equally is not a just, fair God.


    Yet instead of a utilitarian approach he opts for retribution....how primative.


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    The Quran commands us to treat our wives mercifully which negates any kind of beating.

    Except with a toothbrush  Wink

    Quote
    Alcohol is bad for your health. That's science.

    Not true. Moderate drinkers tend to have better health and live longer than those who are either abstainers or heavy drinkers. moderate consumption of alcohol was associated with a decrease in the risk of heart attack. Evidence report a strong, consistent relationship between moderate alcohol consumption and reduction in cardiovascular disease in general and coronary artery disease in particular. A  Harvard study found the risk of death from all causes to be 21% to 28% lower among men who drank alcohol moderately, compared to abstainers*1.  A large study funded by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism found that moderate drinking increased the length of life by about 3% among white males.[2] A study of more than 40,000 people by the Cancer Research Center in Honolulu found that "persons with moderate alcohol intake appear to have a significantly lower risk of dying than nondrinkers.? [3]...(I could go on) Now That's science  Afro.
    Now smoking on the other hand.....yet the quran forgot to mention tabacco (which may have to do with Allah not knowing that the western hemisphere existed, and that is where it is from).

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    It is even bad for society as a whole.

    Which must explain why Saudi Arabia is such an advanced society.

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    Do you know how many families break up because of alcohol problems

    very few, actually. Maybe you can cite some statistics. All the ones I read cited Financial issues, Abuse, infidelity, and 'falling out of love or being unhappy' as the main reasons for divorce.
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    If multiples Gods exist, then each God must be limited in some way in order to allow for the existence of the other God/Gods. If the universe is limited, then it would need an unlimited Being to maintain it. Multiple Gods cannot do this because they themselves are limited.


    What if there are multiple universes? What if all these gods combine in a vultron-like way to being super god.
    What if..what if...what if...What if god made other gods because he thought it would be cool, and now they work in committee (in which case each god would be 'limited', but the committee of gods would not be. I can dream stuff up all day.

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    Satan and Jinn cannot cause physical harm anyway which renders your pathetic attempt useless.

    I agree...since they arent real..however, islamic dogma disagrees
    (btw, "Allah says the Jinn were created from smokeless fire" Am I the only one who finds that silly for a number of reasons)

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    There is no wedding in Paradise. Just a very normal life. We will be genderless, of one body/soul

    Never heard that one before...What quran are you using?

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    one can play with texts and give them whatever meanings he desires them to be.

    Because its poorly written and much of it is gibberish

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
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