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Theme Changer

 Topic: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

 (Read 189902 times)
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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #990 - November 27, 2009, 11:00 PM

    It does make sense in an important way.  The sharia looks for a reason (ella) in deciding if to ban/diapprove/condone/approve anything.  Based on the quran that 'reason' is the potential for harm.  


    Thus not taking into account the fact that I am an adult person who can make up my own mind about certain things concerning my activities.  It is akin to a nanny deciding for a child..

    Everything is done for a reason.  The question is what those reasons are.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #991 - November 27, 2009, 11:09 PM

    Do you not get it Hassan?  At least the atheist argument is coherent even if it is little more than "shit happens".  The theist argument is not too different but merely that shit happens for a purpose.  


    You think the Theist Argument makes sense? You say shit happens for a purpose?

    Sorry but it can only make sense if that purpose is 'known'. Until then it is only a baseless claim.

    So what is purpose?

    One might accept such terrible suffering if one knew it was necessary in order to fulfill some wonderful purpose.

    So do tell me what it is - I'm all ears?

    All I see in the Qur'an is a God who makes people suffer for no other reason other than to complete a 'test' (that he knew the outcome of) and which he claims will justify putting some of his creatures in eternal paradise and some in eternal Hell.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #992 - November 28, 2009, 02:27 AM


    This thread has been really insightful, for all sorts of reasons.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #993 - November 28, 2009, 02:30 AM

    Yes, it has, but it's gotten kind of boring now. I miss splitting hairs over Quranic verses  Afro.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #994 - November 28, 2009, 02:30 AM

    This thread has been really insightful, for all sorts of reasons.



    go on

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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #995 - November 28, 2009, 02:45 AM

    Quote
    go on


    Well, if I wanted someone to see in condensed form the very disturbed, almost psychotic way that many Muslims regard anyone who apostates, they should just read the replies from the mafioso who posted here.

    They are like spurned lovers -- like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction -- very intense and stalkerish.

    Allah really is a jealous God.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #996 - November 28, 2009, 03:00 AM

    I think you are right some scholars would hesitate to ban outright something that was permitted at the time of the prophet, even though the prophet made it clear it was distasteful.  The early community had to tackle the issue around them and no-one denies the thrust of islamic guidance was to free slaves and effectively abolish it in that way.

    Wikipedia has this to say on Muhammads view on slavery for example

    "Muhammad encouraged manumission of slaves, even if one had to purchase them first. Traditional biographies of Muhammad give many examples where Muhammad's companions, at his direction, freed slaves in abundance. Abul Ala Maududi reports that Muhammad freed as many as 63 slaves.[3] Meer Ismail, a medieval historian, writes in Buloogh al Muram that his household and friends freed 39,237 slaves.

    Therefore some scholars have argued that the eventual ban on slavery was intended and therefore is the current postion


    Why do people try to argue that Islam ended slavery? Is there a verse in the Quran that prohibits it? Islamic slavery lasted until the 20th century. It was more benevolent than the western slave trade, but lasted much longer. What Muhammad did was establish it as a fixture with restrictions on it. It had to end eventually though- slavery, modernity, and human rights don't mix.

    Quote
    Since slavery is permitted by Islamic law, Muslim countries have used secular law to ban it. Some countries outlawed slavery only comparatively recently:

        * Qatar in 1952
        * Yemen and Saudi Arabia in 1962
        * Mauritania in 1980


    Quote
    Internal pressure came from a variety of Muslim sources:

    From the 1870s, radical and gradual rationalists, together with moderate literalists and progressive ulama, could all be placed in the broad category of opponents of slavery, despite their manifold disagreements.

    William G. Clarence-Smith, Religions and the abolition of slavery - a comparative approach



    Quote
    Initially, it was a source of great hostility that the West dared to intervene in Islamic affairs in contradiction to what was allowed by the Koran.

    But as Western influence, or modernism, became more and more [widespread], it became less fashionable as well as profitable in Islam to own slaves. And it became illegal over much of the area.

    The pressures against slavery were extremely great from Western powers. It was the moral issue. It became more scandalous because the conditions of procurement and transport became more and more horrendous.

    Ronald Segal, interview with Suzy Hansen, Salon Magazine, 2001


    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #997 - November 28, 2009, 03:02 AM

    Maybe God is toughening us up for the next life because it's worse?

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #998 - November 28, 2009, 07:49 AM

    Alcohol is good for you?

    The "good for you part" was referring to garlic and onion buckwheat.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #999 - November 28, 2009, 08:00 AM

    It was more benevolent than the western slave trade, but lasted much longer.


    Depends on how you define as "benevolent", if its how black folks could sometimes get their freedom & rise to positios of importance, then yeah, it was benevolent.

    However, in practice it was often far more cruel, because it involved the abominable practice of castration of black folk, millions were castrated. Of course, Islam doesn't sanction castration, there's even some hadith wherein Muhammad says that those who castrate blacks will themselves be castrated, but it did happen, in millions.But then, followers of Jesus could claim that he always urged humane treatment, stories like the Good Samaritan yada, yada.

    The reason Saudi, Turkey doesn't have a huge black population is in lage measure due to this castration.

    The West: Millions imported from Africa, for over 300 years, no opportunity for social mobility, doomed to a life of slavery.

    Islamic nations: Millions imported from Africa, for 1400 years, some opportunity for upward mobility but less than Arabs\Turks, provided they're not castrated, & a significant % would be.

    Which was better? Huh? Difficult to tell.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1000 - November 28, 2009, 08:18 AM

    I think Europe/Christendom was distinctly less slavery-prone compared to the Islamic world and muslims by far worse.. BUT, the discovery America and the massive increase in black slavery due to European labour demand there basically tilted that scale. Arab/Muslim slavery tended to be very eclectic and varied, it was evil and cruel a lot of the times, but the usage of industrial slave labour was nowhere near as the level of what was going on in the Americas.

    And some forms of slavery actually boosted the slave above everyone else. Take Turkic slavery. The old Persian and Arab sultans used to buy up thousands of enslaved Turkic pagans in the medieval era to work as "ghulams" or military slaves. Some would go on to become governors and generals. And in some cases found their own empire.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1001 - November 28, 2009, 08:22 AM

    Depends on how you define as "benevolent", if its how black folks could sometimes get their freedom & rise to positios of importance, then yeah, it was benevolent.

    However, in practice it was often far more cruel, because it involved the abominable practice of castration of black folk, millions were castrated. Of course, Islam doesn't sanction castration, there's even some hadith wherein Muhammad says that those who castrate blacks will themselves be castrated, but it did happen, in millions.But then, followers of Jesus could claim that he always urged humane treatment, stories like the Good Samaritan yada, yada.

    The reason Saudi, Turkey doesn't have a huge black population is in lage measure due to this castration.

    The West: Millions imported from Africa, for over 300 years, no opportunity for social mobility, doomed to a life of slavery.

    Islamic nations: Millions imported from Africa, for 1400 years, some opportunity for upward mobility but less than Arabs\Turks, provided they're not castrated, & a significant % would be.

    Which was better? Huh? Difficult to tell.




    True, but I guess I meant theoretically, The Muslims actually had rules that they were supposed to adhere to, but didn't most of the time. And some things were anti-quranic/islamic. However, in under Islam, slaves were able to reach positions of power. Apparently even women according to the BBC article.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1002 - November 28, 2009, 08:38 AM

    True, but I guess I meant theoretically, The Muslims actually had rules that they were supposed to adhere to, but didn't most of the time. And some things were anti-quranic/islamic. However, in under Islam, slaves were able to reach positions of power. Apparently even women according to the BBC article.


    Anti Quranic, but not neccessarily anti Islamic.

    I heard the Apostle say: Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks?. Allah sent down concerning him: ?To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom." [9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ?If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'Ishaq 243

    Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the Africans color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks.
    Tabari II 11

    Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham?s descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem?s, the latter would enslave them.Tabari II 21

    Black folks are still called by derogatory terms like abd & zanji in the ME.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1003 - November 28, 2009, 09:01 PM

    I hope Ibn Saba comes back.....I'm hungry

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1004 - November 28, 2009, 09:15 PM

     Cheesy Feeling carnivorous, are we?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1005 - November 29, 2009, 02:25 AM

    I hope Ibn Saba comes back.....I'm hungry

    There are several debates ongoing on this thread.

    Hence it's hard keeping up with our discussion, and ensure it flows smoothly. Do you want to start a new thread, or should we continue on this thread?

    Keep in mind, I'm not Muslim, or defending any Religion. But posting from what I understand, without any prejudice, the Islamic position is, concerning this subject.

    For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who refuse to understand, no explanation is possible.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1006 - November 29, 2009, 08:11 AM

    Ibn Saba - Did you post up a bio?
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1007 - November 29, 2009, 12:30 PM

    They are like spurned lovers -- like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction -- very intense and stalkerish.

     Cheesy

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1008 - November 29, 2009, 04:59 PM

    I wonder if the prophet ever smoked up to get inspiration for the Quran. I mean anybody writing a major work of fiction would eventually run into 'writers block' right? There must have been moments where he was like "fuck, I haven't had a revelation in weeks.. uhhh... hmmm..I really wanna fuck that coptic slave girl...I have an idea"

    Well, the coptic slave girl verses came a bit after the fact i think.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1009 - November 30, 2009, 11:38 PM

    I'm glad you got out of that religion any relationship with God(if one believes) should be spiritual, no one should tell you how to pray and connect. then it becomes a huge chore.


    Now have fun enjoying all that is haram!  Wink
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1010 - November 30, 2009, 11:39 PM

    Welcome, would you care to make an introduction?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1011 - November 30, 2009, 11:42 PM

    You guys are just jealous because you haven't been given any pretty Coptic girls has presents recently

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1012 - November 30, 2009, 11:44 PM

    I'm glad you got out of that religion any relationship with God(if one believes) should be spiritual, no one should tell you how to pray and connect. then it becomes a huge chore.


    Now have fun enjoying all that is haram!  Wink


    Even the non haram stuff you weren't supposed to enjoy it  because this life is like dust only after life matters.

    In the after-life you can enjoy all the earthly delights...rivers of wine...houries with see through skin...and erection that lasts all eternity ;-)

    You see believers desire everything non-muslims desire...it just that they are waiting for it in the after life... :-)


    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1013 - November 30, 2009, 11:49 PM

    Believers see it this way: non believers are short termist, they ignore worship & adulation to pursue haram & wordly delights now
    they see themselves as being more long term, they swap worldly delights with iety, in order to get an eternity of haram pleasures.
    The reality is the opposite - they have sacrificed everything for nothing.  They are the real losers.

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1014 - November 30, 2009, 11:51 PM

    Are Believers Ultimately Selfish?

    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1015 - November 30, 2009, 11:58 PM

     Huh? of course not - that only the way believers see it.  The reality is that non-believers are not gullible and reasoned thinkers - simply realists (although there are a certain % of atheists who might be stupid enough to believe what they do because it suits there immediate concerns, but I dont think any of these exist here)

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1016 - December 02, 2009, 11:17 PM


    If God does not exist necessarily, then there must have been a time when He did not exist, which is impossible. If the concept of God should make sense, then God must exist necessarily.



    In response to this statement not just to Salem1111, but also to anyone else wanting to advance that God exists necessarily. I want to briefly state the following:-

    This is known as a "reductio ad absurdum": basically we can conceive of leprechauns that necessarily exist; therefore those leprechauns exist necessarily; therefore, there are leprechauns. You can do it with anything: we can conceive of an eternal teapot that by definition necessarily exists; therefore there is an eternal teapot somewhere that exists, because it exists necessarily; adamantium is an eternal indestructible metal that necessarily exists, therefore adamantium exists and has always existed; etc.

    We can say that Yahweh or even Zeus exist (unless you suppose they are referring to the same being?) Therefore Allah is false (since Zeus or Yahweh necessarily exist, too)

    Just declaring that something by definition necessarily exists, therefore it exists, works for anything, and since it works for anything, it really works for nothing, because it's absurd to think that the world is filled somewhere with an infinite eternal junkpile of bizarrely necessary beings and objects. Something must therefore be wrong with the argument.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1017 - December 28, 2009, 10:32 AM


    What the fudge? So now, leaving a religion means that you're insulting it?



    Damn right! The way I have come to understand it is that, I think, Muslims think that being a Muslim means possessing something which belongs to them (you could call this "Imaan") and if you leave Islam then you are stealing/destroying something which belongs to them, not to you. So in effect, what you are doing when leaving Islam is breaching their personal property and causing damage to it, which I guess means you restricting their freedom. It would take a very warped mind to actually believe this, but there ya go...

    Quote

    Don't get me wrong, I still respect Muslims. Islam was a big part of my life for quite a while. I simply disagree with Islam, for if there is a God (yup, 100% Agnostic now), He/She/It would not be so desperate for worship. People say "you need God, He doesn't need you". Doesn't seem like it.



    True thing. Allah seems all a bit too desperate to suggest he doesn't need us at all.

    Quote

    It's funny that Muslims talk about Islam being a religion of peace when trying to bring people to Islam, but threaten to kill somebody who leaves Islam. *sigh* Gotta love double standards...


    It's so funny that it can drive you mad. It can drive you so mad that you can end up like the Muslims you're trying to criticize. A large dose of thinking about what you want to do with your life without having to refer to the Qur'an anymore and generally just knowing how to enjoy yourself again will contribute a great deal to the continuation of your sanity lol.

    Wow, 64 pages of replies?! Nice one  Smiley

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1018 - December 28, 2009, 10:35 AM

    Even the non haram stuff you weren't supposed to enjoy it  because this life is like dust only after life matters.

    In the after-life you can enjoy all the earthly delights...rivers of wine...houries with see through skin...and erection that lasts all eternity ;-)

    You see believers desire everything non-muslims desire...it just that they are waiting for it in the after life... :-)




    I've got a picture of a typical Muslim that I know of in my head. He's gonna be like a non-Muslim in the hereafter? No way.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #1019 - December 28, 2009, 08:03 PM

    Islam's afterlife is appealling if you're a man I guess, not so much so if you're a woman. The delights in heaven even if you're a pious Muslimah bare no significance to the many virgins their husbands would get. This is not really that much of a surprise since Islam was meant to appeal to the 7th century arab male mentality (not to be racist in anyway).

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
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