Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)

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Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
OP - November 21, 2009, 03:42 PM

Quote from: elijah on November 21, 2009, 01:56 PM

Soorah Aali 'Imraan
Soorah 3
Aayah 97
And as for those who deny the truth - verily, Allaah does not stand in need of anything in all the worlds.

Soorah Ibraaheem
Soorah 14
Aayah 8
And Moses said: Though ye and all who are in the earth prove thankless, lo! Allaah is indeed self-sufficient, ever to be praised!"

A self-sufficient entity has no needs, wants or desires, there is no purpose that needs fulfilling, a self-sufficient entity is complete in itself, then pray tell us.... what is the purpose of existence?, what is the purpose of this universe, most of which is just empty?
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Reply #1 - November 21, 2009, 03:48 PM

Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 03:42 PM
A self-sufficient entity has no needs, wants or desires, there is no purpose that needs fulfilling, a self-sufficient entity is complete in itself, then pray tell us.... what is the purpose of existence?, what is the purpose of this universe, most of which is just empty?

No doubt, an omnipotent diety does not need nor desire any of these things. I have heard muslims say that Allah created all this out of his infinite bounty.
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Reply #2 - November 21, 2009, 03:59 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 03:48 PM
No doubt, an omnipotent diety does not need nor desire any of these things. I have heard muslims say that Allah created all this out of his infinite bounty.

What does that even mean?, another popular one is, "it's all test!", what is there to test if Allah knows the outcome of every test?
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Reply #3 - November 21, 2009, 04:01 PM

Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 03:42 PM
A self-sufficient entity has no needs, wants or desires ... there is no purpose that needs fulfilling,

Non-Sequitur. A self-sufficient entity can set purposes to itself.

Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 03:42 PM
a self-sufficient entity is complete in itself, then pray tell us.... what is the purpose of existence?, what is the purpose of this universe, most of which is just empty?

the Two rhetorical Questions are dismissed as they refer to the logical fallacy from the First Two lines.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Reply #4 - November 21, 2009, 04:17 PM

Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 03:59 PM
What does that even mean?, another popular one is, "it's all test!", what is there to test if Allah knows the outcome of every test?

Let me first ask if you could introduce yourself if you have not already done so? Are you muslim, ex-muslim???. Just out of curiousity. To set the record straight, I'm an ex-muslim and was practising for twenty years before apostating, so am familiar with the arguments.

What I mean is that Allah creates at will and without reason. There might be no purpose that we may be able to detect. The point is that Allah can create and destroy whatever he wants. Not out of any desire or want, but to show us his omnipotence.

The outcome of his knowing should not have any bearing on what we will do. Yes his omniscience and our freewill does seem to contradict. But Allah is showing to us "our" essential nature and the "choices" we made. Allah just knows the outcome. Allah can say to us on qayamat that this is what you did with your freewill. Correct?

(Sorry for playing devil advocate.)
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Reply #5 - November 21, 2009, 04:34 PM

Quote from: Baal on November 21, 2009, 04:01 PM
Non-Sequitur. A self-sufficient entity can set purposes to itself.
the Two rhetorical Questions are dismissed as they refer to the logical fallacy from the First Two lines.

Why would a self-sufficient entity like God, who doesn't need/want/desire anything, have any purpose at all?
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Reply #6 - November 21, 2009, 04:56 PM

Quote from: Baal on November 21, 2009, 03:35 PM
Islame, for the life of me all I see is non-sequitur in your post.

Kim stated: "People say "you need God, He doesn't need you". Doesn't seem like it."
Elijah is trying to state what the koran really said relative what people said to Kim.
Islame: In what capacity is your post a rebuttal to Elijah?

If Allah doesnt need us to believe, then why punish us with death for not believing? This leads me to believe that following him is compulsary.

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Reply #7 - November 21, 2009, 05:02 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 04:17 PM
Let me first ask if you could introduce yourself if you have not already done so? Are you muslim, ex-muslim???. Just out of curiousity. To set the record straight, I'm an ex-muslim and was practising for twenty years before apostating, so am familiar with the arguments.

Hello mate, I'm not Muslim, nor ex-Muslim, but I used to be a believer in God, but now bouncing in between agnosticism and atheism.

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 04:17 PM
What I mean is that Allah creates at will and without reason. There might be no purpose that we may be able to detect. The point is that Allah can create and destroy whatever he wants. Not out of any desire or want, but to show us his omnipotence.

The outcome of his knowing should not have any bearing on what we will do. Yes his omniscience and our freewill does seem to contradict. But Allah is showing to us "our" essential nature and the "choices" we made. Allah just knows the outcome. Allah can say to us on qayamat that this is what you did with your freewill. Correct?

(Sorry for playing devil advocate.)

Thanks for the elaboration, your description of how Allah creates at will with no reason/intention or purpose in mind, does not conform to the image of Allah one gets when reading the Quran - at least, that's not the image I got, he comes across as an angry king with an extremely fragile ego, also it doesn't reconcile the problem of omniscience and free-will, but that's another debate that can be discussed till the cows come home.
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Reply #8 - November 21, 2009, 05:19 PM

Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 05:02 PM
Hello mate, I'm not Muslim, nor ex-Muslim, but I used to be a believer in God, but now bouncing in between agnosticism and atheism.

So what tipped you from theism to agnosticism?

Quote
Thanks for the elaboration, your description of how Allah creates at will with no reason/intention or purpose in mind, does not conform to the image of Allah one gets when reading the Quran - at least, that's not the image I got, he comes across as an angry king with an extremely fragile ego, also it doesn't reconcile the problem of omniscience and free-will, but that's another debate that can be discussed till the cows come home.

No worries. It's really to show that he can do it and needs no underlying reason. As with all religious text, they need some sort of interpretation and a theology to go with it.
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Reply #9 - November 21, 2009, 05:25 PM

Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 04:34 PM
Why would a self-sufficient entity like God, who doesn't need/want/desire anything, have any purpose at all?

Are you for real?

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Reply #10 - November 21, 2009, 05:27 PM

Quote from: IsLame on November 21, 2009, 04:56 PM
If Allah doesnt need us to believe, then why punish us with death for not believing? This leads me to believe that following him is compulsary.

Because believing is for our own good.. or else.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Reply #11 - November 21, 2009, 05:30 PM

Quote from: Baal on November 21, 2009, 05:25 PM
Are you for real?

Yes, I'm willing to learn.
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Reply #12 - November 21, 2009, 05:31 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 05:19 PM
So what tipped you from theism to agnosticism?

No worries. It's really to show that he can do it and needs no underlying reason. As with all religious text, they need some sort of interpretation and a theology to go with it.

Doubting and questioning is what eventually led me out of faith.
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Reply #13 - November 21, 2009, 05:38 PM

Quote from: Baal on November 21, 2009, 05:27 PM
Because believing is for our own good.

Here is the crux. Allah is not compelled to place us into Jannah. He can just as well throw us into Jahannam. Without making any difference to his attributes. His attributes are simply part of his essence. Baal is correct, believing is not for Allah's benefit. It's for ours. He has given us just enough information to accept or reject. You understand? The compulsion to believe is say for example he said "Bush will make war in Iraq in 2003" That would not be a belief then. It would be a matter of fact. Hence the leap of faith. The point being is say:-

"I gave you xyz many years to "believe" in my existence and to worship me, which is my HAQQ"
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Reply #14 - November 21, 2009, 06:03 PM

Quote from: Baal on November 21, 2009, 05:25 PM
Are you for real?

What is the logical line that you are drawing between:
The point of a self-sufficient entity and the point of not having a purpose.

Unless you can draw a line that we can accept or dispute, then the statement is non-sequitur.

How does the status of being self-sufficient, lead to the status of one's purpose.

Being self-sufficient means nothing is needed. Nothing needs to come in.
Purpose is an outward act, something that comes out.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Reply #15 - November 21, 2009, 08:17 PM

Quote from: Baal on November 21, 2009, 06:03 PM
What is the logical line that you are drawing between:
The point of a self-sufficient entity and the point of not having a purpose.

Unless you can draw a line that we can accept or dispute, then the statement is non-sequitur.

How does the status of being self-sufficient, lead to the status of one's purpose.

Being self-sufficient means nothing is needed. Nothing needs to come in.
Purpose is an outward act, something that comes out.

Ok, when I talk about a self-sufficient/complete entity, it's within the context of an Abrahamic God. I'll try and put my reasoning as clearly as I can, I'm not a logician, so if I make mistakes then feel free to correct me.

A self-sufficient and complete entity can set no purpose to itself that fulfills a need or a desire.

The Quran states that Allah created man and jinns so that we worship him, according to verse Q.51:56, that says, "I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me."

Allah wants to be worshipped. Wants are things that are desired.

A desire implies that one is seeking something that one lacks.

A self-sufficient and complete entity lacks nothing.

Allah is self-sufficient and complete, thus he cannot set any purpose to itself that contradicts his self-sufficiency and completeness.

But here we have a contradiction, if Allah wants people to worship him, he can neither be self-sufficient, nor complete
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Reply #16 - November 21, 2009, 08:42 PM

Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 08:17 PM
Ok, when I talk about a self-sufficient/complete entity, it's within the context of an Abrahamic God. I'll try and put my reasoning as clearly as I can, I'm not a logician, so if I make mistakes then feel free to correct me.

Nor am I, but I'll play devils advocate as best as I can. If there are any holes in the argument then you or anyone else can point these out.

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A self-sufficient and complete entity can set no purpose to itself that fulfills a need or a desire.

It's not setting a purpose. It's demonstrating it's capabilities if you like. For us to get to know him

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The Quran states that Allah created man and jinns so that we worship him, according to verse Q.51:56, that says, "I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me."

Allah wants to be worshipped. Wants are things that are desired.

Another misconception. The worship aspect is his "Haq" or right. It is what he deserves.

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A desire implies that one is seeking something that one lacks.

A self-sufficient and complete entity lacks nothing.

Allah is self-sufficient and complete, thus he cannot set any purpose to itself that contradicts his self-sufficiency and completeness.

But here we have a contradiction, if Allah wants people to worship him, he can neither be self-sufficient, nor complete

He needs nothing which is true, hence he won't flinch if he throws us to the flames. The guidance is for our benefit not his. It's about perspectives. That's it. It's all in the language. We as humans are restricted by our own limited language and can only think in terms of spacial and limited.
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Reply #17 - November 21, 2009, 08:47 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 08:42 PM
He needs nothing which is true, hence he won't flinch if he throws us to the flames.

Then he can't say he is merciful can he?

or just?

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The guidance is for our benefit not his.
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We did not asked to be born.

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We as humans are restricted by our own limited language and can only think in terms of spacial and limited.
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Language is tool. We develop better tools all the time.

[/quote]

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Reply #18 - November 21, 2009, 09:17 PM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 21, 2009, 08:47 PM
Then he can't say he is merciful can he?

or just?

Yes' don't forget his other attributes "Al-Qahar" (The all compelling subduer), "Al-Mu'dhell" (The Giver of Dishonour), "Al-Hakam" (The Judge, The Arbitrator),, "Al-Jalīl" (The Majestic), "Al-Muntaqim" (The Avenger), "Ad-Dārr" (The Distressor, The Harmer, The Afflictor)

Don't forget these attributes as well, which according to islamic theology are manifested in the cosmos and will be manifested in the hereafter. Just for reference, islamic theology isn't the same as christian theology.

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The guidance is for our benefit not his.
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We did not asked to be born.

So what? It's tough. You are born. Will that excuse suffice in the face of "Mālik-ul-Mulk" (The Owner of All Sovereignty)

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We as humans are restricted by our own limited language and can only think in terms of spacial and limited.
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Language is tool. We develop better tools all the time.

Yeah, but it's what we use to communicate and what the Quran is revealed in. Those attributes and descriptions are glimpses into his attributes and not the whole story.

I'm playing devils advocate here. I've heard these and similar things to what I've said before.

BTW please use the quote function.
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Reply #19 - November 21, 2009, 09:26 PM

Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 08:17 PM
Ok, when I talk about a self-sufficient/complete entity, it's within the context of an Abrahamic God. I'll try and put my reasoning as clearly as I can, I'm not a logician, so if I make mistakes then feel free to correct me.

A self-sufficient and complete entity can set no purpose to itself that fulfills a need or a desire.

The Quran states that Allah created man and jinns so that we worship him, according to verse Q.51:56, that says, "I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me."

Allah wants to be worshipped. Wants are things that are desired.
etc

I think it would be better if this part of the thread was branched off. It's getting lost in here.

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Reply #20 - November 21, 2009, 09:29 PM

Yeah I'll split the thread. I'll lock it just for a few minutes so I can get a clean split.

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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #21 - November 21, 2009, 09:42 PM

Thanks for the suggestion Mannat and thanks for the split Os. I think the topic does deserve it's own thread.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #22 - November 21, 2009, 09:54 PM

To get a better understanding take a look at this on Wiki. It has a list of God's attributes. One of the things that muslims don't fall into is "theodicy". It's a big bug bear for christians. Muslims just see these things as manifestations of Allah's attributes. One of the main issues with christian theology is the "All-Loving" attribute, which creates a problem known as "The problem of evil"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Names_of_Allah

Notice, that in the 99 names there isn't the word "All" prefixed into the name. Which gets rid muslims out of the theodicy issue.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #23 - November 21, 2009, 10:12 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 09:17 PM
Yes' don't forget his other attributes "Al-Qahar" (The all compelling subduer), "Al-Mu'dhell" (The Giver of Dishonour), "Al-Hakam" (The Judge, The Arbitrator),, "Al-Jalīl" (The Majestic), "Al-Muntaqim" (The Avenger), "Ad-Dārr" (The Distressor, The Harmer, The Afflictor)

Then He is Contradictory and Absurd.

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So what? It's tough. You are born.
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We did not asked to be born.

And if he created us then he has Duty of Care.

If you say he can't careless then He is a monster.

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Yeah, but it's what we use to communicate and what the Quran is revealed in.
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Then it's God's fault for communicatining with Language. It's not our fault our languge is limited.

Quote
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Those attributes and descriptions are glimpses into his attributes and not the whole story.

I'm playing devils advocate here. I've heard these and similar things to what I've said before.

BTW please use the quote function.

Don't worry I am the Devil's Deciple ;-)

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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #24 - November 21, 2009, 10:16 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 08:42 PM
Nor am I, but I'll play devils advocate as best as I can. If there are any holes in the argument then you or anyone else can point these out.

lol, I didn't really want to get drawn into a debate, I'm not that good at it.

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 08:42 PM
It's not setting a purpose. It's demonstrating it's capabilities if you like. For us to get to know him

But it's still a purpose isn't it?, an intent to display his capabilities to us would be his purpose to create this universe. Why does he want us to know him in the first place, does our knowing or non-knowing makes any difference to his existence?, if not - then why create anything?, if it does - then what sort of God is he?, a show-off?

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 08:42 PM
Another misconception. The worship aspect is his "Haq" or right. It is what he deserves.

If he deserves our worship, then may be he should've disclosed himself to us in a way that doesn't insult the intelligence he's endowed us with.

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 08:42 PM
He needs nothing which is true, hence he won't flinch if he throws us to the flames. The guidance is for our benefit not his. It's about perspectives. That's it. It's all in the language. We as humans are restricted by our own limited language and can only think in terms of spacial and limited.

Better not to create anything, no need to convince anyone that you exist.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #25 - November 21, 2009, 10:42 PM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 21, 2009, 10:12 PM
Then He is Contradictory and Absurd.

Why is it contradictory? Were you not aware of these attributes when you were muslim? Don't we have many facets to our personality? What use is a God who is just an "All-loving" and "All-merciful" hippie???

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We did not asked to be born.

Again, it's a rather poor excuse and doesn't stand to scrutiny.

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And if he created us then he has Duty of Care.

He has created us with free will. In what way do you mean duty of care? Everything is here to sustain our existence. He has told us why we have been created. The rest is up to us.....

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If you say he can't careless then He is a monster.

Now Now, The operative word is he won't. Humans have to interact with each other in some way or another, whether that's through compassion in times of distress such as earthquakes or famine. These things teach us virtue. If say for example your neighbour was hungry for three days and you give him food out of compassion, then that is a test for you. A manifestation of one of Allah's attributes which you have displayed. If there wasn't that "sabab", then how would you know what that virtue is?

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Then it's God's fault for communicatining with Language. It's not our fault our languge is limited.

Again, it's how we communicate. Through speech reading and writing. Can you think of anything else? We have issues comprehending a potentially infinite universe, let alone a diety with infinite attributes through our limited mind. Reason does have it's limits, correct?

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Don't worry I am the Devil's Deciple ;-)

Glad to hear it fellow advocate!
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #26 - November 21, 2009, 11:01 PM

Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 10:16 PM
lol, I didn't really want to get drawn into a debate, I'm not that good at it.

Not to worry, I'm an ex-muslim. Think of it as a way to sharpen up your critical faculty. Your points below are good.

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But it's still a purpose isn't it?, an intent to display his capabilities to us would be his purpose to create this universe. Why does he want us to know him in the first place, does our knowing or non-knowing makes any difference to his existence?, if not - then why create anything?, if it does - then what sort of God is he?, a show-off?

Hmm... Here the muslim might say that he "wishes" us to have the experience of existence, even though it's contingent and not necessary. Are you not in awe of the universe and hence his capabilities? His knowing or not knowing makes no difference to his existence. Look at it from the other side. He created it for us, he sent guidance for us. Explained the choices including the consequences. He creates out of his will, because he can. He would still have those attributes and existence whether we existed or not. A muslim would say that he has given us the pleasure of existence and hence kufr is a sign of ingratitude. Show off is a negative trait. God is described by positive attributes.

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If he deserves our worship, then may be he should've disclosed himself to us in a way that doesn't insult the intelligence he's endowed us with.

What type of revelation would you be please with?

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Better not to create anything, no need to convince anyone that you exist.

Where is the convincing? The cosmological, teleological and ontological proofs are grounded in reason. Which part of those arguments do you not understand? If it was about convincing then he would have said "George Bush will invade Iraq in 2003", we have been given just enough to have faith or doubt. It's the stregnth of the faith which is at test.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #27 - November 22, 2009, 10:43 AM

Come on guys. This is far more interesting and engaging than the "Muhammad is a paedo" or "Mo had nine wives". Lets have more input.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #28 - November 22, 2009, 03:15 PM

OK, haven't read the whole thread, but just a quick comment. Omaar is correct in stating the position of Islamic theology, but of course that doesn't mean they are satisfactory answers to the questions posed.

One is the issue of God's sifaat (attributes) which are not the same as a human attributes. So you can say a man is Kareem (generous) but only God is Al-Kareem (THE Generous - implying an all-encompassing quality.)

God's punishment in Hell was because of other attributes (such as the one who takes revenge etc...)

But there is a fundamental contradiction between his attributes that on the one hand declare God to be all-merciful and others that allow for acts of extreme (and seemingly unnecessary) cruelty.

The sifaat are supposed to be higher, divine and all-encompassing qualities unlike limited human attributes - yet in reality they fall short of them.

The usual response I got from Sheikhs to this was "Allah is beyond human understanding" etc... but then how are we to judge these claims if not by human understanding?
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #29 - November 22, 2009, 03:52 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 10:42 PM
Why is it contradictory?

Because they cancel each other out.

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Were you not aware of these attributes when you were muslim?

Yes. That is why I said they were contradictory.

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Don't we have many facets to our personality?

You can compare God and man can you?

God has a personality? God is supposed to be beyond such concepts.

Man is imperfect God is not.

God is perfection - He can't have contradictions.

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What use is a God who is just an "All-loving" and "All-merciful" hippie???

These are the things God claims he is.

We can only judge on his claims and show the contradictions in his attributes.

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Again, it's a rather poor excuse and doesn't stand to scrutiny.

Not it's not. We can only go by his claims. These claims are contradictory and Absurd.

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He has created us with free will. In what way do you mean duty of care?

Because he created us. He has a duty of care. If can't careless of things he creates then his just a monster.

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Everything is here to sustain our existence.

Yes. Duty of Care. So Earthquakes, Tsnunamis, diseases, famine - he has failed us in his duty of care.

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He has told us why we have been created.

But his reason does not tally with his attributes.

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The rest is up to us.....

No rest is upto God. He is the First Cause ;-)

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Humans have to interact with each other in some way or another, whether that's through compassion in times of distress such as earthquakes or famine. These things teach us virtue.

Thus virtue and morality we learnt - we find the God guilty of being Contradictory and Absurd. In fact he is guilty of Being a Divine Tyrant, a Despot and a Sadist.

What!!!! you say he is beyond our comprehension? ;-)

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If say for example your neighbour was hungry for three days and you give him food out of compassion, then that is a test for you. A manifestation of one of Allah's attributes which you have displayed. If there wasn't that "sabab", then how would you know what that virtue is?

See above. We find God guilty of being a divine despot :-)

The Creations put him to trial and found him Guilty!

Is that a triamph of human morality?

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Again, it's how we communicate. Through speech reading and writing. Can you think of anything else?

Yes. Telepathy.

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We have issues comprehending a potentially infinite universe, let alone a diety with infinite attributes through our limited mind. Reason does have it's limits, correct?

Reason has it's limits?

That what theists say.

Scientific Method is the best we have.

That is enough to dismiss God to the pages of myths.

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