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 Topic: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat

 (Read 6203 times)
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  • Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     OP - November 25, 2009, 03:59 AM

    Hi Everyone!

    I was wondering if anyone can provide some insight into the personal conviction of this great man of history. The mind who had inspired Edward Fitzgerald, a man no less admirable, to distill the essence of Khayyam's Rubaiyat into his exquisite and enduring translation.

    Was Khayyam a Sufi, like an Iranian friend seems to believe, or a true freethinker, agnostic, or atheist? I have read with relish both Fitzgerald's and Heath-Stubbs and Avery's translations, the latter of which stays as true as possible to the original, and I don't see how he could have been a Sufi or a member of any religious sect of that time. The unmistakable thread of materialism, doubt, skepticism, and half-veiled disgust of the religious mindset runs throughout the Rubaiyat and it's hard for me to believe some of the strenuous interpretations put on it to force this great man into one religious camp or another. What do you think?

    This work of Khayyam (through Fitzgerald) has a strange kind of uplifting grandeur and peace that completely betrays the superficial subject matter of the work. It's simply magnificent. I cannot believe more people are not aware of his poetry.

    Also, why did the great tradition of freethought in the middle east die such a woeful death? or has it? What happened to the Arab Platonists and Neo-Platonists? I'm not from the Middle East - a bit further East is where I hail from - and I've become very curious in the history of this part of the world lately.

    I've been lurking for a few weeks now and you people seem a good bunch, so I thought I'd join the fray Smiley



     

  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #1 - November 25, 2009, 04:49 AM

    People have pretty differing views on the religious nature of Omar Khayyam. From his poetry I guess my personal opinion was that he was either an agnostic and/or atheist. He's definitely a free-thinker and definitely looked down on religion in general. This wouldn't be surprising as lots of the artists and scientists of this era were privately atheist. For example the Ar-Razi (the quote in my sig) was a pretty clear atheist and critic of Islam. Lots of these Persian thinkers were similar in this ere and I doubt Omar was even more-so. Plus he loved his women and wine. Of course his love of women did not involve force!

    Quote
    Also, why did the great tradition of freethought in the middle east die such a woeful death? o


    Thats a very very big question. And it would have a very very complex answer. The era of the medieval middle east known as the "Islamic Golden Age" is a complex and very special time in human civilization. Being an avid reader of muslim history my reading (im no historian mind you!) is that in this early medieval era of Islamic history, the notion of "orthodox islam" had not yet been formalized and the nature of Islam and it's relation to the 'scholars' and politics had not been fully determined yet. There were really hundreds of heretical islamic cults and sects at this time and there was constant religious flux and strife - meaning no overarching sunni islamic doctrine or controlling ulema. The 'fossilization' of scientific and philosophical discourse I think began with an Islamic theologian called Ghazali. He rejected the various rationalist schools of thought and formulated what I would call the first notion of "orthodox sunni islam". He rejected the idea of rationalism being the sole method of proving god and the scriptures and he condemned the influence of greek thought in the mutalizite (rationalist) schools of thought. While Ghazali's ideas did not immediately dominate the muslim world, it would eventually and it would end the era of scientific inquiry since it was not longer considered useful and deemed unislamic, while at the same time Europe and the Catholic Church was *increasing* its focus on having scientific departments at their universities (~1100s-1500s).

    There are also other factors of that time, like more secular minded rulers of various city states and a culture of patronizing and competing over the most accomplished scientists and intellects. This created a sort of middle class of highly educated thinkers, scientists and artists that would transfer ideas amongst themselves across the islamic world and would be create a suitable environment for free inquiry to flourish. It's surprising that quite a few openly atheistic thinkers were never executed for their obvious blasphemies. I can't explain that, but might be because the fundamentalist ulema class did not have much sway with many of the more secular minded rulers. Many of these rulers were after all Turkic conquerers who were very recently converted and not particularly orthodox in their view of Islam.

    Once again, not a historian, just a avid reader.. so I'm sure others can illuminate more light on Omar Khayyam and the why freethought died in that part of the world.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #2 - November 25, 2009, 05:26 AM

    Hey thanks for the very informative reply.

    I've done very cursory readings of middle eastern history and I also got the sense that the rigid structure of Islamic orthodoxy had not yet been hammered out and accepted during those early periods of Muslim history. It also seems this civilization enjoyed some very secular rulers who eventually lost their grip on power to be replaced by the more religious-minded.

    How much do you think this course of events were due to geopolitical circumstances and how much due to the religion of Islam itself? Difficult question, I know. I've only read a few chapters of the Koran and maybe half of the Bible so I wouldn't be able to comment knowledgeably on the details of these religions, but would it be fair to say that Islam is more political than Christianity? And if so, could this have somehow tipped the scale?

    It's such a shame to look upon the state of affairs in the middle east in the present. I often look at the output of the Persian civilization in the past and see such potential in its people today, and yet I can't help but feel that religion is holding them back. I don't think it's an unfair assessment as I look into the past and see that the major contributions to knowledge and human progress have been made by those who took the most liberty with religious dogma, and those who abandoned them altogether. This is definitely true of Europe as it worked its way through the Enlightenment. People say that Christianity was actually responsible for the progress it made toward modernity, but I think that's dishonest Christian apologetics. Christianity made have had the necessary chinks in its armour for progress to barge through and assert itself but it cannot be made responsible for it. That would be dishonouring the memory of those that gave their lives and freedom for the betterment of mankind.

    ...
  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #3 - November 25, 2009, 12:25 PM

    hi there Smiley
    one of the few things that i really enjoy doing is reading Khayyam's Rubaiyat . i think compare to the poets in his era , Khayyam was really blunt in his poems which made it really hard for mullahs to change what he means in his Rubaiyat . in iran the education system tries to connect these poems somehow to god and make students believe that the poet was a Muslim and his secret for being so good can be find in there love for Islam . for example changing lover to god or wine to being drunk by love of god etc .
    anyways i believe that you cant compare the english translation with the original poems and the feeling that they give you when you hear them in farsi ( also there are some bit's that even in farsi can mean a lot of different things ) so if somehow you had any problems with Eng translation and wanted some help with some bits i will be more than happy to help here .
  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #4 - November 25, 2009, 05:42 PM

    hi there Smiley
    one of the few things that i really enjoy doing is reading Khayyam's Rubaiyat . i think compare to the poets in his era , Khayyam was really blunt in his poems which made it really hard for mullahs to change what he means in his Rubaiyat . in iran the education system tries to connect these poems somehow to god and make students believe that the poet was a Muslim and his secret for being so good can be find in there love for Islam . for example changing lover to god or wine to being drunk by love of god etc .
    anyways i believe that you cant compare the english translation with the original poems and the feeling that they give you when you hear them in farsi ( also there are some bit's that even in farsi can mean a lot of different things ) so if somehow you had any problems with Eng translation and wanted some help with some bits i will be more than happy to help here .


    The way he talks about wine in his quatrains, it's impossible for me to think that he was using wine as a metaphor. But you'd have a better idea of that since you can read the original text. Have you read Fitzgerald's translation? Stylistically, it's better than Heath-Stubbs and Avery's but the latter, as I'm told, is very true to the original and is quite .... how would I describe it ... blunt like you say and playfully straight forward.

    Have you read the Bird Parliament? I forget the name of the author but this was appended onto my copy of the Rubaiyat. Fitzgerald's translation is excellent here as well. The author is clearly a mystic or a Neo-platonist and the message very different from Khayyam's stuff but it's a good read.
  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #5 - November 25, 2009, 06:06 PM

    Omar Khayyam's works often reminds me of the subtle humanist-agnostic poetry of Punjabi sufi poet Baba Bulleh Shah.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #6 - November 25, 2009, 11:08 PM

    well as i was saying the whole metaphoric use of wine is something made by religious people to make Iranians believe that for example Khayyam was an Islamic-Iranian poet or attar Neyshapuri ( author of mantegh al-tair ( conference of the birds ) was an Islamic-Iranian poet etc etc ; because Iranian people are really proud of there history and having there history linked to Islamic history by these people is maybe the reason that Islam got in to Iran really fast .
    well as i said before no matter how good the translation is there is always something in the soul of poetry ( i don't know a word for it ) that you cant get until you cant understand ( not just read ) the original text .
    about the conference of the birds and attar himself i haven't read the book completely myself but attar starts the book with a few prayers for creator of the world (?) which at least for me leaves no doubt that he did believe in a god/ess but then again you can find the footsteps of Mithraism in almost every poetry of Iranian poets which at some point got mix to Islam as well so you cant say for sure if so called muslim iranian historical figures were from which side of the islam . the side that got mixed in order to survive the Islamic invasion or the one which accepted there religion
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_Mysteries
  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #7 - November 25, 2009, 11:22 PM

    Not sure, need to read it one day. I've heard many suggestions about is religious views and philosophy on the world. However he was also a great mathematician. No doubt that he was a rational thinker at the very least.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #8 - November 25, 2009, 11:23 PM

    Omar Khayaam?

    No doubt. A skeptic.

    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #9 - November 25, 2009, 11:28 PM

    I've always been really sceptical or should I say 'skeptical' about the way 'sceptic/skeptic' is spelt. Is it' 'k' or 'c'.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #10 - November 26, 2009, 01:12 AM

    I've always been really sceptical or should I say 'skeptical' about the way 'sceptic/skeptic' is spelt. Is it' 'k' or 'c'.

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sceptical+or+skeptical

    On the thread topic. I have noticed the diverse opinions on him, and got interested and went ahead and ordered the Rubaiyat translation in Arabic. Hopefully there is no censorship. I will also probably buy the English translation(s) and get another insight.

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #11 - November 26, 2009, 04:39 AM

    I've always been really sceptical or should I say 'skeptical' about the way 'sceptic/skeptic' is spelt. Is it' 'k' or 'c'.


    When I see it spelled "sceptic" I read it as septic, which doesn't invite the most pleasant images to one's mind.

    No right way but I prefer skeptic. English is a mess and I prefer clarity over ambiguousness.
  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #12 - November 26, 2009, 04:43 AM

    well as i said before no matter how good the translation is there is always something in the soul of poetry ( i don't know a word for it ) that you cant get until you cant understand ( not just read ) the original text .


    Oh that's for sure. I'm from the far East and it's especially difficult to convey the nuanced and subtle feelings and messages that the Eastern languages convey, so closely tied to its unique culture, by translations into the Western languages.
  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #13 - November 26, 2009, 07:05 AM

    I have posted these somewhere else on this forum before but here are some of my favourite verses from Khayyam's Rubaiyat. The original is very long, but definitely worth reading over and over. I haven't read him in Persian, though I've been wanting to learn Persian so that I can. He was a brilliant thinker and an incredible writer. I really like Richard LeGallienne's translation of the Rubaiyat, that's the translation here:

    RUBAIYAT OF OMAR KHAYYAM

    You want to know the Secret--so did I,
    Low in the dust I sought it, and on high
    Sought it in awful flight from star to star,
    The Sultan's watchman of the starry sky.

    Up, up, where Parwin's hoofs stamp heaven's floor,
    My soul went knocking at each starry door,
    Till on the stilly top of heaven's stair,
    Clear-eyed I looked--and laughed--and climbed no more.

    Of all my seeking this is all my gain:
    No agony of any mortal brain
    Shall wrest the secret of the life of man;
    The Search has taught me that the Search is vain.

    Look not above, there is no answer there;
    Pray not, for no one listens to your prayer;
    Near is as near to God as any Far,
    And Here is just the same deceit as There.

    But here are wine and beautiful young girls,
    Be wise and hide your Sorrows in their curls,
    Dive as you will in life's mysterious sea,
    You shall not bring us any better pearls.

    Allah, perchance, the secret word might spell;
    If Allah be, He keeps His secret well;
    What He hath hidden, who shall hope to find?
    Shall God His secret to a maggot tell?

    So since with all my passion and my skill,
    The world's mysterious meaning mocks me still,
    Shall I not piously believe that I
    Am kept in darkness by the heavenly will?

    The Koran! well, come put me to the test--
    Lovely old book in hideous error drest--
    Believe me, I can quote the Koran too,
    The unbeliever knows his Koran best.

    And do you think that unto such as you,
    A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew,
    God gave the Secret, and denied it to me?--
    Well, well, what matters it! believe that too.

    If I were God, and this poor world were mine,
    O thou shouldst see on what a fair design
    I would rebuild it like a dream for thee,
    Nor shouldst thou ever blush to call it thine.

    If I were God, the very stars and flowers
    Should be more fair, and all the sterns and sours
    Change to a music sweet as rivers flowing--
    If I were God, and this poor world were ours.

    If I were God, I would not wait the years
    To solve the mystery of human tears;
    And, unambiguous, I would speak my will,
    Nor hint it darkly to the dreaming seers.

    Life is too short, dear brother, to be sad;
    If you must needs be anything--be glad;
    Leave bitter books, and read the Book of Joy--
    I know that some declare the book is bad.

    Eternal torment some sour wits foretell
    For those who follow wine and love too well,--
    Fear not, for God were left alone in Heaven
    If all the lovely lovers burnt in hell.

    He who believes in hell and knows Thy grace
    Shall surely find in hell his resting-place,
    Keep for the mosque these fables of Thy wrath-
    No man believes them who hath seen Thy face.

    To all of us the thought of heaven is dear--
    Why not be sure of it and make it here?
    No doubt there is a heaven yonder too,
    But 'tis so far away--and you are near.

    Men talk of heaven,--there is no heaven but here;
    Men talk of hell,--there is no hell but here;
    Men of hereafters talk, and future lives,--
    O love, there is no other life--but here.

    Passionate particles of dust and sun,
    Run your brief race, nor ask why it is run--
    We are but shadow-pictures, voices, dreams;
    Perchance they make and break us--just for fun.

    O Love, I come to worship in your shrine,
    There is no part of you is not divine,
    There is no part of you not human too,
    There is no part of you that is not mine;

    'Tis a great fuss, all this of Thee and Me,
    Important folk are we--to Thee and Me;
    Yet what if we mean nothing after all,
    And what if Heaven cares nought--for Thee and Me?

    All those who in their graves unheeded lie
    Were just as pompous once as You and I,
    Complacent spake their little arrogant names,
    And wagged their heads, and never thought to die.

    Would you seek beauty, seek it underground;
    Would you find strength--the strong are underground;
    And would you next year seek my love and me,
    Who knows but you must seek us--underground?

    O heart, my heart, the world is weary-wise,
    My only resting-place is your deep eyes,
    O wrap me warm in their illusive love,--
    For well I know that they are also lies.

    Sometimes as, cup in hand among the flowers,
    I think on all my witty wasted hours,
    I see that wine has been a fable too,
    Yes! even wine--so false a world is ours.

    Yet were it vain some other way to try,
    Of all our lying wine is least a lie,
    All earthly roads wind nowhere in the end,---
    What matters then the road we travel by?


    I personally think, based on his words, that Khayyam was probably agnostic, definitely not a religionist, more of a hedonist-pantheist than a typical Muslim.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Omar Khayyam and his Magnificient Rubaiyat
     Reply #14 - November 26, 2009, 05:15 PM

    I haven't read the complete translation of LeGallienne's but that's on my list of to do's. I really liked what little I've read of it.

    No matter what Khayyam was, he liked his wine and I'll drink to that.

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