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 Topic: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?

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  • Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     OP - November 25, 2009, 09:36 AM
    I'm really interested in this story, not because of what might or might not be learnt from it, but rather if this actually happened or not. Besides the account in the OT, the story is repeated in the Quran, mainly in Surah Baqarah, which is the largest chapter in there. If this story is a fiction, then why is it in there? Are we supposed to believe that Moses was an actual historical figure? If not, then that means that Muhammad was talking to a fictional character on the fictional "miraj". I'd like to read some objective material on this and see some proper evidence. If anyone has read anything credible, then please let me know.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #1 - November 25, 2009, 11:07 AM
    It's fiction. Archaeologists have been all over Egypt and Israel/Canaan with a fine toothed comb. They have looked very hard for evidence of the exodus and there is none. On the contrary, there is a lot of evidence that it is pure mythology.

    Get a copy of "The Bible Unearthed" for a good run down on the facts as opposed to the fiction. Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #2 - November 25, 2009, 11:21 AM
    Is that the only book on this or is there anything else. I remember Hitchens said in his book that the whole exodus was fiction and he also added that if the stories in OT fell, then the ones in the Quran would partly fall also. Then there is the issue of whether Moses or any of the prophets mentioned in the Quran actually existed or not?
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #3 - November 25, 2009, 11:21 AM
    My rabbi says it's all bs. Wink
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #4 - November 25, 2009, 11:25 AM
    Quote from: awais on November 25, 2009, 11:21 AM
    My rabbi says it's all bs. Wink


    It would be great to have something to back it up. Something to thrust in front of muslims. They might write it off as being metaphorical and it isn't important if these people existed or not, but the lessons learnt from the story......
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #5 - November 25, 2009, 11:30 AM
    It was rather the other way around: Egypt had colonized the area of today's Israel for quite some time.
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #6 - November 25, 2009, 11:53 AM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 25, 2009, 11:25 AM
    It would be great to have something to back it up. Something to thrust in front of muslims. They might write it off as being metaphorical and it isn't important if these people existed or not, but the lessons learnt from the story......

    I'll ask him what books he recommends. I think he's written stuff on it himself also. He taught a multi weekend class on it, but I only caught the last day of it. I got some notes from it, let's see where I put them...
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #7 - November 25, 2009, 01:07 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 25, 2009, 09:36 AM
    I'm really interested in this story, not because of what might or might not be learnt from it, but rather if this actually happened or not. Besides the account in the OT, the story is repeated in the Quran, mainly in Surah Baqarah, which is the largest chapter in there. If this story is a fiction, then why is it in there? Are we supposed to believe that Moses was an actual historical figure? If not, then that means that Muhammad was talking to a fictional character on the fictional "miraj". I'd like to read some objective material on this and see some proper evidence. If anyone has read anything credible, then please let me know.


    Perhaps Moses is simply a Hebrew King Arthur.  I think there must have been some historical figure who actually existed for the biblical Moses to created.  Perhaps he didn't do a number of things that the biblical Moses did, but he could have served as the inspiration for the biblical or mythological Moses to be created.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #8 - November 25, 2009, 01:13 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 25, 2009, 11:07 AM
    It's fiction. Archaeologists have been all over Egypt and Israel/Canaan with a fine toothed comb. They have looked very hard for evidence of the exodus and there is none. On the contrary, there is a lot of evidence that it is pure mythology.

    Get a copy of "The Bible Unearthed" for a good run down on the facts as opposed to the fiction. Wink


    Are you saying that not even bodies were found?  But then one should also take into account that the Hebrews after their supposed exodus from Egypt spent considerable time as nomads and those probably don't leave much remains or tombs either.  As far as I know there were historical references to them by other people as desert nomads.  The harshness and violence in the books of the old testament definitely show that the authors lived in constant struggle and war, which is most probably the way nomadic tribes lived those days.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #9 - November 25, 2009, 01:35 PM
    It is fiction. If there was a mass migration of such a large group of people, there would be at least a bit of evidence, but no evidence has been found for it at all.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #10 - November 25, 2009, 01:48 PM
    I don't even think the Egyptian powers at the time made note of such a revolt. Although reading the book Os has recommended might shed some light on it.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #11 - November 25, 2009, 02:07 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 25, 2009, 11:25 AM
    It would be great to have something to back it up. Something to thrust in front of muslims. They might write it off as being metaphorical and it isn't important if these people existed or not, but the lessons learnt from the story......


    But the thing is religious people don't require evidence. For example, there is no evidence for the Night Journey, but Muslims will still believe it to be literally true.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #12 - November 25, 2009, 04:15 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on November 25, 2009, 02:07 PM
    But the thing is religious people don't require evidence. For example, there is no evidence for the Night Journey, but Muslims will still believe it to be literally true.


    I know that, the issue here is if Moses never existed, then Muhammed was having a delusion when he said he was speaking to Moses on Miraj. It means that the Miraj would have been a dream, in which Muhammed was talking to a non-existent individual. Moses is a pivotal figure in these Abrahamic faiths, if he didn't exist then they need to account for the revelation of the ten commandments and the Torah.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #13 - November 25, 2009, 05:39 PM
    I know what your saying, but if Muslims don't need actual evidence for the Miraj, they don't need actual evidence for the existence of Moses. Muslims will always believe that Moses was a real person who lived on this Earth, because Muslim scripture says so. And they will believe that in spite of any evidence which may suggest otherwise.

    And if a Muslim does not believe in the Prophets and Messengers, they are a kafir, so it is just a matter of belief rather than a matter of reason.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #14 - November 25, 2009, 05:49 PM
    This is where they need to weigh up the real evidence against what the Quran is saying. They also need to check if the other personalities existed too. This was one of the things that raised my suspician. There is next to no evidence for the existence of these people who are supposed to have played a huge part in monotheism in the run up to Islam.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #15 - November 25, 2009, 05:52 PM
    True.

    We have strong evidence for the existence of Jesus and evidence for the existence of David but that is about it really. Abraham and Moses are almost certainly mythological.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #16 - November 25, 2009, 06:24 PM
    http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2008/07/rabbis-and-christians-on-exodus.html
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #17 - November 25, 2009, 06:35 PM
    Good article.  Afro
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #18 - November 25, 2009, 07:35 PM
    The question is who was the real Moses?, which person served as the inspiration for Moses?  I find it hard to believe that the Israelites would invent a story like that without basing it on an actual historical event or person.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #19 - November 25, 2009, 07:57 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on November 25, 2009, 07:35 PM
    The question is who was the real Moses?, which person served as the inspiration for Moses?  I find it hard to believe that the Israelites would invent a story like that without basing it on an actual historical event or person.



    I agree. It's borrowed from the myth of how the Akkadian dynasty was formed under Sargon the great.
    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #20 - November 25, 2009, 08:05 PM
    Hmmm, I'm seeing that the story of the baby in the casket is quite similar.   

    You seem to be into Sumerian culture quite a lot...
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #21 - November 25, 2009, 08:13 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on November 25, 2009, 08:05 PM
    Hmmm, I'm seeing that the story of the baby in the casket is quite similar.   

    You seem to be into Sumerian culture quite a lot...

    Yes, and that of the other ancient near eastern cultures. I am in college for it.

    There are plenty of parallel ancient near eastern stories that are found in the bible, often times making God look like the gods he so adamantly apposes, such as Baal (Hadad), Marduk (Bel), and so many others.
    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #22 - November 25, 2009, 08:17 PM
    Quote from: ninurta on November 25, 2009, 08:13 PM
    Yes, and that of the other ancient near eastern cultures. I am in college for it.

    There are plenty of parallel ancient near eastern stories that are found in the bible, often times making God look like the gods he so adamantly apposes, such as Baal (Hadad), Marduk (Bel), and so many others.


    Interesting...  Do you have any ancestors or relatives from that area?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #23 - November 25, 2009, 08:19 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on November 25, 2009, 08:17 PM
    Interesting...  Do you have any ancestors or relatives from that area?

    No, got into it while studying ancient egypt. I just love to learn about ancient cultures, and its an area where less is known about than for example ancient greece and Rome. I am also interested in studying ancient Iran and India.
    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #24 - November 25, 2009, 08:23 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on November 25, 2009, 01:13 PM
    Are you saying that not even bodies were found?

    Nothing. No bodies, no camping site (and remember it supposedly took 40 years to cross Sinai), no nothing.


    Quote
    But then one should also take into account that the Hebrews after their supposed exodus from Egypt spent considerable time as nomads and those probably don't leave much remains or tombs either.

    The numbers of people mentioned as being in the exodus would leave traces, which brings up another problem. There were never that many people in Judaea around that time.


    Quote
    As far as I know there were historical references to them by other people as desert nomads.  The harshness and violence in the books of the old testament definitely show that the authors lived in constant struggle and war, which is most probably the way nomadic tribes lived those days.

    It's all bullshit. Half the cities that were supposedly attacked and conquered in the OT were not even occupied in that era.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #25 - November 27, 2009, 01:50 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 25, 2009, 08:23 PM
    The numbers of people mentioned as being in the exodus would leave traces, which brings up another problem. There were never that many people in Judaea around that time.

    Not to mention that they had such a population boom in that time that they must've left a sign, and must've showed something, anything. but for such a huge population of nomads, there is neither the signs they existed, nor the signs in the land that it could sustain half of them, or even a quarter. The desert they crossed doesn't even have nomads living on it (forget 40 years) because its so barren even the bedouins in their small numbers only cross it when necessary.

    Quote
    It's all bullshit. Half the cities that were supposedly attacked and conquered in the OT were not even occupied in that era.

    And some of the cities were just simply thriving before and after nonstop.

    There is proof that israel existed before they allegedly arrived in the land and settled killing canaanites, in the reign of Merneptah. Actually it says he defeated them, all of the israelites (which was probably a dramatization of conquering them). And later, Israel curiously is called Samaria by the Assyrians.
    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #26 - December 03, 2009, 12:09 PM
    Well I found this on You Tube. More parts on there:-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-96hNrPcGg
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #27 - December 03, 2009, 12:15 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on November 25, 2009, 07:35 PM
    The question is who was the real Moses?, which person served as the inspiration for Moses?  I find it hard to believe that the Israelites would invent a story like that without basing it on an actual historical event or person.


    I'm sure there would have been a moses of some sort but it is well known that the books in the bible with the acclaimed names were not written by them - many times writers would adopt a given name to add more credibility to their work. I think at one point there was speculation of at least 4-5 different people who worked on the stuff acclaimed to have been written by Moses.
    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #28 - December 03, 2009, 12:31 PM
    He opens the video with a lie. The old testament, wasn?t written 1000 years before the new. Genesis was written in the Hellenistic era. My proof? Well we'd have to dive into linguistics and a bunch of other stuff for that.

    As for inventing the idea of a single god? No, that idea was from africa and Akhenaton was the inventor of that.

    The bible the origin of Individualism?  Cheesy

    Make it stop, I got the hickups from laughing.

    As for the OT being monotheist, in the books written just before the Hasmonean. Most actually are sounding like Assyrian style monotheism, the kind the abrahamists so detest.

    I am 100% positive there was no Moses, the myth just seems to be a throw together of foreign lands. I think they were polytheists who in the post-occupation Maccabean and Hasmonean era wanted a new religion because they (those in power) wanted to ensure loyalty.

    Monotheism isn't the only idea they took on from africa, there was also circumcision. It ensured loyalty to the priesthood.
    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: Did the exodus really take place, or was it just fiction?
     Reply #29 - February 12, 2010, 08:16 AM
    Also check this PBS documentary out:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvg2EZAEw5c
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