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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi.

 (Read 24509 times)
  • 12 3 ... 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Hi.
     OP - November 28, 2009, 08:22 PM
    I am a muslim, and as a muslim I tend to visit muslim forum.

    And sometimes It makes me cringe. Stupid conspiration theory mainly , ludicrous and parodic critics of the western society and a certain form of anti-intellectualism .Then I found this forum, and to my great surprise* It is pretty much the same. Muslim world seen as a monolithic block, a mysoginistic, barbarous block that is, and plain revisionism. But like in the muslim forums, there is sometimes pearl that enriches my perception of the world .

    And I seek those , even if I know that many of you will just make my already enormous misanthropy grows at an alarming rate.

    PS: I'm not a native english speaker but I will try to make effort.


    * : if italics were not enough, I was being sarcastic.
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #1 - November 28, 2009, 08:32 PM
    I think you are somewhat overstating your case. Welcome to the forum anyway. Smiley
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #2 - November 28, 2009, 08:46 PM
    Quote from: kodoque on November 28, 2009, 08:22 PM
    .Then I found this forum, and to my great surprise* It is pretty much the same. Muslim world seen as a monolithic block, a mysoginistic, barbarous block that is, and plain revisionism. But like in the muslim forums, there is sometimes pearl that enriches my perception of the world .


    I don't agree with that at all - that there is one perception here of the Muslim world.  Seeing as how some of the posters live there, and many are from there... Sometimes I think people are a bit soft on Islam, but it comes and goes, as members come and go, the tone and tenor changes.  As for revisionism, where do you see that? Or is it....

    Quote
    And I seek those , even if I know that many of you will just make my already enormous misanthropy grows at an alarming rate.


    Your first post and you're already engaging in marginalizing language? 

    Quote
    PS: I'm not a native english speaker but I will try to make effort.


    That's okay.  There are quite a few posters here for whom English is not the first language. 

    [/quote]
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #3 - November 28, 2009, 08:55 PM
    I think the people are are immensely nuanced and reasonable about their analysis of Islam and Muslim society. We are all from that society so accusing us of having a monolithic view is a bit ridiculous. I know Pakistani like the whipping, and Sudanese prefer the stones. Diversity in the ummah.  Afro

    j/k. But yeah, stick around and point out any fallacies, revisionism and inaccuracies. I think the admins here are very open to muslim views given how doubtfool and salem11 spam the shit out of many threads.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #4 - November 28, 2009, 09:00 PM
    Quote from: kodoque on November 28, 2009, 08:22 PM
    I am a muslim, and as a muslim I tend to visit muslim forum.

    And sometimes It makes me cringe. Stupid conspiration theory mainly , ludicrous and parodic critics of the western society and a certain form of anti-intellectualism .Then I found this forum, and to my great surprise* It is pretty much the same. Muslim world seen as a monolithic block, a mysoginistic, barbarous block that is, and plain revisionism. But like in the muslim forums, there is sometimes pearl that enriches my perception of the world .

    And I seek those , even if I know that many of you will just make my already enormous misanthropy grows at an alarming rate.

    PS: I'm not a native english speaker but I will try to make effort.


    * : if italics were not enough, I was being sarcastic.



    I don't think many here consider Islamic to be homogenous.

    I think it is the Muslims themselves say this. The Mythical Umma.

    But Islam is Diverse. There are vast range of interpretations.

    It is only the Talibanic and Wahabist interpretations that gets the most ire of posters here. In many respects deservedly so.








    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #5 - November 28, 2009, 09:02 PM
    @Manat: Funny is how I was going to point that how, by pure laziness I was making a big generalization by using the term "you", but even more laziness made me not even try to explain myself.

    As for revisionism, there seems to be a general willing here to deny that Islamic civilisation did not produce original work or paradigm shift in the study of science, nor that it contributed significantly to material life.
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #6 - November 28, 2009, 09:05 PM
    "As for revisionism, there seems to be a general willing here to deny that Islamic civilisation did not produce original work or paradigm shift in the study of science, nor that it contributed significantly to material life."

    Not me. I totally agree Islamic civilization did contribute immensely. There is a diversity of views here, not all ex-muslims have the same views or politics on these things. And since we don't have blasphemy laws, no one will be banned or cursed here for having divergent opinions.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #7 - November 28, 2009, 09:11 PM
    Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 28, 2009, 09:00 PM
    I don't think many here consider Islamic to be homogenous.

    I think it is the Muslims themselves say this. The Mythical Umma.

    But Islam is Diverse. There are vast range of interpretations.

    Yeah there are many school of tought, and you are perfectly right when you say that many muslim are not aware of that.



    Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 28, 2009, 09:00 PM

    It is only the Talibanic and Wahabist interpretations that gets the most ire of posters here. In many respects deservedly so.



    Come on, do you think that critics here are merely made against  the Talibanic and Wahabist interpretations?








  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #8 - November 28, 2009, 09:13 PM
    Quote
    Come on, do you think that critics here are merely made against  the Talibanic and Wahabist interpretations?


    Mostly yes.

    Many like the Sufi interpretations of Islam. Some are former Sufi's here.
    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #9 - November 28, 2009, 09:14 PM
    Well actually not for me. I am against Islamic values and principles in general - I think any serious commitment to Islam is incompatible with modern humanist values, democracy and secularism. I just think the Salafists are the most closest to the philosophy of muhammad himself.

    But that's my opinion. Not everybody who is ex-muslim shares that.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #10 - November 28, 2009, 09:17 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on November 28, 2009, 09:05 PM
    "As for revisionism, there seems to be a general willing here to deny that Islamic civilisation did not produce original work or paradigm shift in the study of science, nor that it contributed significantly to material life."

    Not me. I totally agree Islamic civilization did contribute immensely. There is a diversity of views here, not all ex-muslims have the same views or politics on these things. And since we don't have blasphemy laws, no one will be banned or cursed here for having divergent opinions.


    Like I said, there will be "pearl", and by that I mean intelligent and toughtful arguments that I will glady read ,even especially if there are against my current line of tought, but my experience proved me that human community, especially on the web, tend to follow the lowest common denominator.
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #11 - November 28, 2009, 09:18 PM
    Well then.. welcome.. erm.. to the lowest common denominator?

    Maybe just get involved in whatever threads and give your views instead of effectively complaining "at" us on your intro thread.  Tongue whistling2




    EDIT: I'm new here myself and I think you'll find people here generally open-minded.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #12 - November 28, 2009, 09:23 PM
    Quote from: kodoque on November 28, 2009, 09:02 PM
    @Manat: Funny is how I was going to point that how, by pure laziness I was making a big generalization by using the term "you", but even more laziness made me not even try to explain myself.


    We're all guilty of that sometimes, but then I guess the key is to not get angry when people react to that. 

    Quote
    As for revisionism, there seems to be a general willing here to deny that Islamic civilisation did not produce original work or paradigm shift in the study of science, nor that it contributed significantly to material life.


    I don't know. I haven't seen much like that since a thread a ages ago about the idea of "Islamic architecture." I think it was almost a year ago. I didn't really read it.  But perhaps you can link to some examples of posts that do this (recent ones, or are you referring to this old thread)?
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #13 - November 28, 2009, 09:25 PM
    Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 28, 2009, 09:13 PM
    Mostly yes.

    Many like the Sufi interpretations of Islam. Some are former Sufi's here.


    I'm a former sufi and I don't like the sufi interpretations any more than the rest of it, but I think the perennialist, liberal sufi interpretations (ala schuon or guenon, say?) are more productive (in terms of playing well with others) than, say, traditionalist sufis, deobandis, wahabis, ahle hadith, salafis, etc. 
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #14 - November 28, 2009, 09:25 PM
    Quote from: kodoque on November 28, 2009, 08:22 PM
    I am a muslim, and as a muslim I tend to visit muslim forum.

    And sometimes It makes me cringe. Stupid conspiration theory mainly , ludicrous and parodic critics of the western society and a certain form of anti-intellectualism .Then I found this forum, and to my great surprise* It is pretty much the same. Muslim world seen as a monolithic block, a mysoginistic, barbarous block that is, and plain revisionism. But like in the muslim forums, there is sometimes pearl that enriches my perception of the world .

    And I seek those , even if I know that many of you will just make my already enormous misanthropy grows at an alarming rate.

    PS: I'm not a native english speaker but I will try to make effort.


    * : if italics were not enough, I was being sarcastic.



    Hi kodoque

    I do not hope that what's the impression the general reader gets from this forum. Myself is not a active contributer, but I think that this forum is quite fair in their perspectives on the world. Most of the contributers being ex-muslim is somehow naturally ciritical of different aspects of the "islamic institution". They do not, I suspect (most of them at least), think that they can dissect "islam". What they can do is to give their perspective of the islamic literature and the different manifestions of "islam" which is represented by the diverse body of muslims in the world. Though, that I by reading the islamic literature can come some conclusion does not mean that I except that all other people (e.g. muslims) would get to the same conclusion. Is it evident that we don't. I for instans as one of my conclusions state that it is obviously bullsh**, but different muslims arrives at other conclusions. I can express my views. Many would perhaps consider them "hateful" (I have meet that perspective from muslims trying to convert me several times). But I do not intend to present the "muslim world ...  as a monolithic block". Most certainly not. Not because there is obviously shi'a and sunnis, but because that every muslim present their own view of their religion. And I think that most posters in this forum would agree in that. But if you would ask me if the different countries which have a muslim majority is moving in the right direction (from my perspective), I would say no. Academics in the 90'th and the early 00's have usually presented Malaysia and Indonesia as two examples of the cohesion of progressive democratic values and islam. But in several perspective the cohesion in these examples is presenting itself as an 'illusion'. And the many arab countries are not doing it any better. So is the "Muslim world ... a monolithic block, a mysoginistic, barbarous block that is ... plain revisionism". Some parts of it is partly that, yes. And sadly in most of the "muslim world" it is these 'parts' that are in control and shaping the future for the moment. The progressive groups (religious or not) are sadly having a tough time in these years.
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #15 - November 28, 2009, 09:28 PM
    Quote from: kodoque on November 28, 2009, 09:17 PM
    human community, especially on the web, tend to follow the lowest common denominator.


    I know this is the popular view on internet communities, regardless of religion or purpose, but I disagree with it.  I mean, there are certain etiquettes and behaviours, and there is a lot of snark, hit and run, and really crazy nonsense on the internet, but I've definitely seen more than my fair share of people rise way above the lcd and behave with honour, true friendship, sympathy, compassion, etc.  And, as you say, there is a desire in many to go with minimal efforts or lowest common denominator in general.  Hence the popularity of gossip shows and lazy 'reality tv'. 
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #16 - November 28, 2009, 09:38 PM
    We pretty much agree here, I said "tend to follow" not just "follow". But 4chan being one of the most visited website in the world does not make me optimistic.

  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #17 - November 28, 2009, 09:39 PM
    Quote
    As for revisionism, there seems to be a general willing here to deny that Islamic civilisation did not produce original work or paradigm shift in the study of science, nor that it contributed significantly to material life.


    Firstly, welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy your stay.

    Secondly, sure, islamic civilization did produce some great scientists and architects and I would be a fool to deny it. But what is the point whipping a dead horse? It was almost 1000 years ago. You have to remember also that the philosophy of Averoes, Avicenna and others was philosophy built upon the works of the Greeks. I don't deny that they were great people, but I do feel that the muslims shot themselves in the foot by relegating the muslim philosophers to the back and instead nose diving into dogma by adopting the Ghazali position. This is simply my opinion though.

    The question is, what now? What have they contributed to civilization since the fall of Andalusia? The enlightenment tradition and science made far more and far better progress than the islamic civilizations did or have done.
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #18 - November 28, 2009, 09:39 PM
    Welcome Kodoque, and I hope your presence here will maintain a certain degree of balance. As with all groups there are tendencies for certain individuals (myself included) to become a little carried away in our criticism - and sometimes aimed at Islam as opposed to rogue individuals who find solace in Islam and would be fruitcakes in any case.
    Quote from: kodoque on November 28, 2009, 09:11 PM
    Come on, do you think that critics here are merely made against  the Talibanic and Wahabist interpretations?

    I agree with you - criticism here is aimed at literalist versions of Islam, which I see as the true & honest version of Islam.  

    I hope you can at least gain another viewpoint and pick up some interesting insights.  btw which country are you from, your English sounds fine to me Afro
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #19 - November 28, 2009, 09:59 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 28, 2009, 09:39 PM
    Firstly, welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy your stay.

    Secondly, sure, islamic civilization did produce some great scientists and architects and I would be a fool to deny it. But what is the point whipping a dead horse? It was almost 1000 years ago. You have to remember also that the philosophy of Averoes, Avicenna and others was philosophy built upon the works of the Greeks. I don't deny that they were great people, but I do feel that the muslims shot themselves in the foot by relegating the muslim philosophers to the back and instead nose diving into dogma by adopting the Ghazali position. This is simply my opinion though.

    The question is, what now? What have they contributed to civilization since the fall of Andalusia? The enlightenment tradition and science made far more and far better progress than the islamic civilizations did or have done.


    I perfectly agree with you, Muslim people tendency to contantly remind themselves "How great they were" to justify their actual mediocrity make my mind hurt. But some people here seems to reduce the Islamic contribution to just some incremental work, but I repeat , It brought paradigm shift too. As for the "Al ghazali position" thing, I hope you do not just reduce him to "Al ghazali the obscurantist vs Ibn rochd the enlightened" myth, from what I read his work seem to be quite profound, notably on logic and religion, even if I must agree that he was a factor in the subsequent relative absence of original thought in the muslim world.

  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #20 - November 28, 2009, 10:22 PM
    Quote from: kodoque on November 28, 2009, 09:59 PM
    I perfectly agree with you, Muslim people tendency to contantly remind themselves "How great they were" to justify their actual mediocrity make my mind hurt. But some people here seems to reduce the Islamic contribution to just some incremental work, but I repeat , It brought paradigm shift too. As for the "Al ghazali position" thing, I hope you do not just reduce him to "Al ghazali the obscurantist vs Ibn rochd the enlightened" myth, from what I read his work seem to be quite profound, notably on logic and religion, even if I must agree that he was a factor in the subsequent relative absence of original thought in the muslim world.




    I have read Al-Ghazali's "Deliverance from Error" and I really wasn't impressed. Way too many ad-homs when attacking the philosophers. I credit Ghazali for being a great theologian, but there were theologians before and after, not just from Islam, but from the Judeo/Christian thought, who could run rings around Ghazali when it comes to ideas in theology.
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #21 - November 28, 2009, 10:48 PM
    Well I have only read some part of the "The recitation and interpretation of the Qurʼan" and al ghazali clarity impressed me, I will make further investigation on his work. As to AG being ringed, may I remind you that his writings resonated in the christian world too, Thomas d'aquin come first to mind.
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #22 - November 28, 2009, 11:23 PM
    Quote from: Manat on November 28, 2009, 09:23 PM

    I don't know. I haven't seen much like that since a thread a ages ago about the idea of "Islamic architecture." I think it was almost a year ago. I didn't really read it.  But perhaps you can link to some examples of posts that do this (recent ones, or are you referring to this old thread)?


    A quote that I just found:

    "Most of the gold in the golden age was stolen from other civilizations. As soon as theocracy settled in, and the neighbors ran out of gold, the gold ran out. As opposed to the golden age of the renaissance where they rode on the shoulders of giants/dwarves and produced gold."

  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #23 - November 28, 2009, 11:33 PM
    Welcome to the forum Kodoque.

    Quote from: Kodoque
    A quote that I just found:


    We have an anti-spam precaution on this forum which prevents newbies from posting links until they have made a certain amount of posts.  You have now passed the anti-spam threshold, so from now on, whenever you quote something you can post a link to it. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #24 - November 28, 2009, 11:35 PM
    Welcome kodoque!  far away hug
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #25 - November 28, 2009, 11:37 PM
    @Cheetah: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=7293.msg180573#msg180573

    Here we go
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #26 - November 28, 2009, 11:37 PM
    Quote from: kodoque on November 28, 2009, 11:23 PM
    A quote that I just found:

    "Most of the gold in the golden age was stolen from other civilizations. As soon as theocracy settled in, and the neighbors ran out of gold, the gold ran out. As opposed to the golden age of the renaissance where they rode on the shoulders of giants/dwarves and produced gold."



    Sounds like something Baal would write - and like I said earlier, I agree with you - some people here have extreme opinions, but let me assure you its nowhere near like FFI on the one end, and some muslims sites at the other end.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #27 - November 28, 2009, 11:42 PM
    @Kodoque - there's no need to put a link in URL tags, just copy and paste the link.   Afro

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #28 - November 29, 2009, 10:41 AM
    Quote from: kodoque on November 28, 2009, 11:23 PM
    A quote that I just found:

    "Most of the gold in the golden age was stolen from other civilizations. As soon as theocracy settled in, and the neighbors ran out of gold, the gold ran out. As opposed to the golden age of the renaissance where they rode on the shoulders of giants/dwarves and produced gold."

    Yes I said that. Khawarizmi, the highest math contributor was the head greek translator. He was trained in reading Greek. Where are the books he translated from? why did he hide/burn them? Because they had the picture of zeus? Because they had someone else's name on them? What did the Arabs invent? The Zero? Even that they learned from the indians, and then they became what they invented. Big deal.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Hi.
     Reply #29 - November 29, 2009, 11:27 AM
    Reducing the Islamic civilization to its arab component only is an error.  And I even dare to include non-muslim thinker in the mix who contributed and profited from the cross-fertilizing environmment  that the Islamic civilization initially provided. And seriously do some (more since I consider you already did, I hope) research, because saying that Islamic civilisation only produced the zero is wholly innacurate. I mean emphasis on experimentation? Systematic sterilization of chiurgical instrument?...
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