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 Topic: beating women

 (Read 6175 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • beating women
     OP - December 02, 2009, 10:32 PM
    I have run across claims that daraba means "to leave" and not to "hit" as regards Quran 4:34.

    Is there any historical basis for the claim that early Muslims understood the term and verse in question as "to leave"?

    Or, as I suspect, some people go around saying daraba means "hit" to further their own agenda.
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #1 - December 02, 2009, 10:54 PM
    Where are these claims from that suggest it means "to leave"? This topic has been discussed many times on this forum. Do a search, I'm sure there are many threads.
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #2 - December 02, 2009, 10:59 PM
    I have not come across this argument before, that the word had a different meaning in its historical context.  I have heard arguments before about cultural context, now I hear there a historical context to the Quran (yet its a book created by an omnicient being for not just 7th century Arabia?) - its reverse engineering gone mad.

    I cant help with the Arabic translation my knowledge of Arabic is poor, I heavily relied on Pickthal, Shakir & Yusuf Ali to do this work fo me.  Shakir & Yusuf define it as 'beat' and Pickthal defines it as scourge which according to he webster English Dictionary means 1. To whip severely; to lash.



    There is further evidence in the Quran that this type of behaviour was acceptable under certain conditions:

    In Quran  38:15 "Thy wife; - on whom he had sworn that he would inflict an hundred blows, because she had absented herself from him when in need of her assistance, or for her words. The oath was kept, we are told, by his giving her one blow with a rod of a hundred"

    Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, #132
    The prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."

    And even the prophet is claimed to have hit his wife.  When sleeping with Aisha, Muhammad surreptitiously left his bed and went to the graveyard at Baqi.  

    Aisha followed and watched what the prophet doing; when the prophet found out, according to Sahih Muslim Book 4:2127, 'He struck me on the chest which caused me pain'
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: beating women
     Reply #3 - December 02, 2009, 10:59 PM
    Adhraba means to leave/abstain, but it is certainly not what the Qur'an intended. I will try and explain:
    The Quran says Wa dribohonna (واضربوهن) which is a form of the verb (ضرب) in the 'order' tense.

    If the Qur'an really meant "adhraba" as in leaving it would have been written as Wa Adhribo 'Anhonna (وأضربوا عنهن)

    Not to mention the 'leave them' solution was already suggested just exactly before the 'hit them' solution, and it would be completely useless to repeat the same suggestion 2 times consecutively.
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: beating women
     Reply #4 - December 03, 2009, 08:31 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on December 02, 2009, 10:59 PM
    I have not come across this argument before, that the word had a different meaning in its historical context.  I have heard arguments before about cultural context, now I hear there a historical context to the Quran (yet its a book created by an omnicient being for not just 7th century Arabia?) - its reverse engineering gone mad.

    I cant help with the Arabic translation my knowledge of Arabic is poor, I heavily relied on Pickthal, Shakir & Yusuf Ali to do this work fo me.  Shakir & Yusuf define it as 'beat' and Pickthal defines it as scourge which according to he webster English Dictionary means 1. To whip severely; to lash.



    There is further evidence in the Quran that this type of behaviour was acceptable under certain conditions:

    In Quran  38:15 "Thy wife; - on whom he had sworn that he would inflict an hundred blows, because she had absented herself from him when in need of her assistance, or for her words. The oath was kept, we are told, by his giving her one blow with a rod of a hundred"

    Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, #132
    The prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."

    And even the prophet is claimed to have hit his wife.  When sleeping with Aisha, Muhammad surreptitiously left his bed and went to the graveyard at Baqi. 

    Aisha followed and watched what the prophet doing; when the prophet found out, according to Sahih Muslim Book 4:2127, 'He struck me on the chest which caused me pain'



    Apparently this word can also be translated as "pushed" Roll Eyes. I read it on some thread on islamfactor.org
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #5 - December 03, 2009, 05:44 PM
    "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain"

    Mo was such a romantic guy.  Kiss
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: beating women
     Reply #6 - December 03, 2009, 05:49 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 03, 2009, 05:44 PM
    "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain"

    Mo was such a romantic guy.  Kiss


    Hw utterly bestial must a man be to marry a 9 year old in his 50's & strike her on the chest for whatever reason???  furious

    Besides, note the wife Mo struck, not old rich Khadija, who'd probably kick him out of the house w/o spousal support  if he dared hit her, which would again force him to get off his ass & earn his own living, but little defenceless Ayesha.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #7 - December 03, 2009, 07:25 PM
    Quote from: BH on December 02, 2009, 10:32 PM
    Is there any historical basis for the claim that early Muslims understood the term and verse in question as "to leave"?

    No, there is no historical basis for that claim, here is some tafseers over the last 1400yrs. You can choose the English if you can not read Arabic.

    http://www.altafseer.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=5&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=34&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1

    The only time & place in history, where this verse is explained as anything as striking the wife, is in the present, and to people who can not understand arabic.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #8 - December 03, 2009, 10:40 PM
    SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

    Just how is it that women try to be all progressive and liberal and not address the part after beat them or do a shitty job of apologizing for it. "then if they obey you". "Yes ,of course, Muslimahs are equal to their husbands, mashaallah, but they must obey them, but only when they're demand are halal., otherwise you are not supposed to obey him. But, yes, of course, equal"  Roll Eyes.
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #9 - December 04, 2009, 01:04 AM
    Women's Conversions to Islam: Equality and Obedience
    When converts talk about their Muslim engagement, they particularly underline that Islam stands for equality between people in general and between the sexes in particular. They emphasize the advantages of Muslim family life: that the genders are different but equally valued, and that the genders are equal but hierarchically ordered. At the same time, they assert that the wife, or in cases of polygamous marriages, the wives, must obey her/their husband.

    WTF Huh?

    http://www.nikk.uio.no/?module=Articles;action=Article.publicShow;ID=600
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #10 - December 04, 2009, 01:05 AM
    Say what? That's awesomely idiotic.  Cheesy
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #11 - December 04, 2009, 01:16 AM
    Equal but hierarchically ordered.

    I have never heard a contradiction sound so flowing and beautiful. Almost belongs in the Quran.  Cheesy
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: beating women
     Reply #12 - December 04, 2009, 02:26 AM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 03, 2009, 05:44 PM
    "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain"

    Mo was such a romantic guy.  Kiss


    I think the problem that is even worse is the fact that Muslims claim he was the greatest man who ever existed and his behaviour should be emulated to the most minute detail regardless of social norms.

    These things one could float over if he were Joe Human(tm) who happened to be a messenger but given that Muslims have elevated him to the status that he is, you have all the contradictions of him apparently being a the greatest man that ever existed, sinless and perfect in every way yet he fucks a 9 year old and then beats her - with the blessing that all Muslims should emulate that very behaviour because is the most perfect behaviour a person can uphold.

    Do Muslims claim he was a great man of his time? no. They say his behaviour is above and beyond social norms - so those fucks who turn around and claim that "ooh, but you've got to put it context" need to learn what hell they're talking about.
    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #13 - December 04, 2009, 04:24 AM
    What about beating little kids for not praying? It is in Sahih "fucking" Bukhari, right?
    ...
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #14 - December 04, 2009, 04:52 AM
    This is Dawud actually, but it's probably in Bukhari too.

    Hadith - Dawud, Narrated As-Saburah

    [Also recorded by Ahmand and al-Hakim. Al-Syuti has give in a notation signifying that it is authentic. Al-Albani has graded it hasan. Al-Albani, Sahih al-Jami, vol. 2, p. 1021.]

    The Prophet  said: Order your children to pray at the age of seven. And beat them [lightly] if they do not do so by the age of ten.  And separate them in their bedding.

    [lightly] There it is again.
    And separate them in their bedding. I dont know why you have to separate them in their beds, though. And what does that mean? Make them sleep on the floor Huh??
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #15 - December 04, 2009, 04:53 AM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqOpkcQwgvE

    According to him, the correct explanation is not to beat your wife, but to spank her  Cheesy
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #16 - December 04, 2009, 04:56 AM
    Kinky lol. dammit, there needs to be a ass-spanking smiley.
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #17 - December 04, 2009, 05:01 AM
    What he needs to understand is that real Men don't spank/hit their wives, peroid. However, men should only spank wives on the ass if its with sex, or kinky, according to Angel54  Phwoar

    I joke I joke  Smiley

    Gosh I need a life lol.
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #18 - December 04, 2009, 05:06 AM
    This guy is sucha rambling, deluded fool. Umm, this verse gives men license to beat their women. It doesnt say wives, so daughters are whom the verse refers to. Ok...what about the "refuse to share their beds" part. I believe that implies some kind of incest. I'm sorry if he addresses this part later, but I cant watch any more of that crap lol.
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #19 - December 04, 2009, 05:07 AM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on December 04, 2009, 05:01 AM
    What he needs to understand is that real Men don't spank/hit their wives, peroid. However, men should only spank wives on the ass if its with sex, or kinky, according to Angel54  Phwoar

    I joke I joke  Smiley

    Gosh I need a life lol.



    Lol, me too. I should be studying for a mid term right now grin12.
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #20 - December 04, 2009, 05:14 AM
    Quote from: Angel54 on December 04, 2009, 04:52 AM
    This is Dawud actually, but it's probably in Bukhari too.

    Hadith - Dawud, Narrated As-Saburah

    [Also recorded by Ahmand and al-Hakim. Al-Syuti has give in a notation signifying that it is authentic. Al-Albani has graded it hasan. Al-Albani, Sahih al-Jami, vol. 2, p. 1021.]

    The Prophet  said: Order your children to pray at the age of seven. And beat them [lightly] if they do not do so by the age of ten.  And separate them in their bedding.

    [lightly] There it is again.
    And separate them in their bedding. I dont know why you have to separate them in their beds, though. And what does that mean? Make them sleep on the floor Huh??



    Hi Angel,

    I've also wondered about this, namely:

    Who sleeps on the floor\couch & who sleeps in bed? The disobedient wife or the punishing husband?

    Also, how long does each punishment stage last? How long does a man need to talk to wife before separating  from her bed & then how long does he need to sleep in another bed before proceeding to beating?  Huh?

    Allah doesn't give time periods for each.

    So some men can talk for 1 hour, separate that night & beat the following morning, others might talk for one week, separate for two weeks & only then beat!  Wink
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #21 - December 04, 2009, 05:25 AM
    Quote from: Angel54 on December 04, 2009, 05:07 AM

    Lol, me too. I should be studying for a mid term right now grin12.



    LOL, I am supposed to be studying for a final!
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #22 - December 04, 2009, 05:30 AM
    Wise words from the Ulema of Al-Islam
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY

    Mashallah, the glories of al Quran.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: beating women
     Reply #23 - December 04, 2009, 06:33 AM
    I can tell that under all that bluster he is just craving a good dominatrix.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #24 - December 04, 2009, 07:53 AM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 04, 2009, 05:30 AM
    Wise words from the Ulema of Al-Islam
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY

    Mashallah, the glories of al Quran.


    OMFG... The reason he gives for the first type of the women who he says deserve a beating is sick! So instead of resquing her from abusive parents, the abuse continues by her husband? That is sick.... Very very sick! Huh?
    ...
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #25 - December 04, 2009, 09:11 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on December 04, 2009, 05:14 AM
    Hi Angel,

    I've also wondered about this, namely:

    Who sleeps on the floor\couch & who sleeps in bed? The disobedient wife or the punishing husband?

    Also, how long does each punishment stage last? How long does a man need to talk to wife before separating  from her bed & then how long does he need to sleep in another bed before proceeding to beating?  Huh?

    Allah doesn't give time periods for each.

    So some men can talk for 1 hour, separate that night & beat the following morning, others might talk for one week, separate for two weeks & only then beat!  Wink


    God probably doesnt care how long. As long as you follow the steps, then you're good Afro. Of course he doesnt say what you do if  they dont work after the beating, unless thats where the arbiters in 4 35 come in. And Im thinkin her main beef would be that he hit her and all. But if they're not in danger of divorcing, and shes still a nashiza, then I guess lather, rinse, repeat  Roll Eyes. 
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: beating women
     Reply #26 - December 05, 2009, 08:40 PM
    You can almost feel the nervous denial and intellectually bankrupt apologetics in the air.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-lOCFvGwro
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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