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Theme Changer

 Topic: My very first post here :)

 (Read 12604 times)
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  • My very first post here :)
     OP - December 03, 2009, 01:09 PM

    Hi Smiley Salams  

    I don't know where to begin or how to begin. I thought that I would have my list of problems ready (along with hadeeths and quranic verses) but the list is getting really long and I have to do some serious editing.

    Right now I don't know where I stand. I never thought I would be where I am now. My whole life I've had a clear plan. To be on the Tareek Al Mostakim. And now I have come to a fork in the road. I feel like crying. I feel sick to my stomach. I was born and raised Muslim and I choose to be a practising Muslim for the past 6 years. These past 2 weeks I've stopped praying, and I've started drinking, eating pork and well I am not religious in any way. And I'm afraid of dogma, I'm afraid of having mental blocks restricting me from being rational, critical and creative. Or being sexually repressed. I think these conditions hamper our well being and our personal progress. I feel sick to my stomach for the more I read and analyze and criticize objectively the more I realize that Islam might very well be man-made, in fact that would apply for all religions.  

    I have already several time to myself apostatized, but I still cling on but surely my grasp to Allah?s rope is weakening, I hang on now only with a dull feeling in my chest, not emotionally and not intellectually and not spiritually. How could I have been so wrong for long? All of us? What about the iman I felt inside my chest when I prayed? When I prayed with tears streaming down my eyes, choking, as I prayed for help and for forgiveness? What about the relief afterwards? Is this all for naught? What about the prophet? I once told myself I would kiss the sand that he walked upon. To love him. Emulate him. What about the afterlife? I was never really scared of hell. And the material and physical gifts of heaven never really allured me. It was the fact that I would be with God, the One, the True, the Only. To be surrounded by His love. To be with the highest companion as the prophet once said.

    I will post a bio and the more detailed statements later on. Just wanted to say hi for now Smiley

    Special salams to Hassan. You are wonderful. I loved reading your bio. And I hope one day I will have a chance to meet you and have one of those dark lagers you like so much Cheesy Peace to you my brother 

    And, BerberElla. You seem like a very intelligent person, funny, kind and hot as hell Cheesy I?m crushing haha. Please forgive me if I come off as rude and uncouth.

    Oh and I'm a guy in my late 20's, originally from the middle-east, Shia muslim, raised in Europe. Can?t say much more for now.
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #1 - December 03, 2009, 01:15 PM

    Welcome Black Dog.   Smiley  You'll find many people here who have been through similar to yourself, (including the crush on Berbs  Tongue), so make yourself at home.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #2 - December 03, 2009, 01:18 PM

    Thank you Cheetah Smiley 
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #3 - December 03, 2009, 01:24 PM

    Welcome BlackDog.

    I have been through a very similar route as you, except it took me more than six years to get to where I am.
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #4 - December 03, 2009, 01:34 PM

    To be honest and I find this very interesting I was never really religious as a teenager, I would fast but only because my parents would notice me not fasting, incidentally I wouldn?t break my fast (well once, I ate like 2 minutes right before iftar haha, the food was served on the table and I couldn?t help myself). I also broke my fast a couple of times um doing other things not related to eating or drinking lol, I felt ashamed and stupid after all these incidents and made sure I followed up on other days. I wouldn?t pray though, I?d stay in my room and pretend, sit with my knees bent on the prayer rug and the moment I noticed the door opening I would either prostrate or get up vocalising my prayers along with the movement haha

    I was religious for a year or so off and on before I was 20 but from 17-18 to 20 or so I was pretty much non practising still Muslim, and then for 6 years I was definitely practising, up and down in terms of piety, most extreme period was for 4 months, which affected me greatly. But yeah what I like about this forum is you will find people that were religious, practising, pious, and that still have respect for Muslims. I think this is important, it?s very easy to discard your past and start thinking of yourself as superior, and I?d hate to become one of those assholes. One thing that really kept my away from watching videos of atheist and their debates is this whole assholish attitude, the same that religious people have the "holier than thou? attitude except with atheists it would be an "unholier than thou" attitude.
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #5 - December 03, 2009, 03:55 PM

    Hi black dog, welcome to the forum.
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #6 - December 03, 2009, 04:06 PM

    Thank you Smiley Glad to be here.
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #7 - December 03, 2009, 04:12 PM

    black dog, what made you start disbeleiving?
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #8 - December 03, 2009, 04:12 PM

    Hey!

    Really like reading these kind of bits since it reminds me of my own process of shedding religion. If you had real faith is really is a very painful process. I had serious depression and 'guilt' for about a year proceeding my apostasy. It's natural.


    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #9 - December 03, 2009, 04:23 PM

    Brilliant first post BlackDog - I look forward to more from you  Afro  Care to explain how you managed to eat pork, drink all within 2 weeks of becoming an ex-muslim  Huh?  Were you reacting to something specific, as it seems all too sudden a change?

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  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #10 - December 03, 2009, 04:28 PM

    thats what i would like to know too, as for me i still cant go near pork...its not anything to do with religion. i just dont like it.
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #11 - December 03, 2009, 04:31 PM

    Hey!

    Really like reading these kind of bits since it reminds me of my own process of shedding religion. If you had real faith is really is a very painful process. I had serious depression and 'guilt' for about a year proceeding my apostasy. It's natural.

    I remember listening to a recorded version of this song during my apostacy (it was covered by Cat Stevens lol) and the part about being 'the black sheep of the family' really struck a chord with me at the time.  btw I only realised till much later the song was about a dying man with a terminal illness saying farwell to all his friends

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eec6fYuUTYU&feature=player_embedded

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  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #12 - December 03, 2009, 04:40 PM

    thats what i would like to know too, as for me i still cant go near pork...its not anything to do with religion. i just dont like it.


    Ham tasted nice, but I have a problem with the full english breakfast. Maybe cos I'm a bit of a health freak and that looks seriously off putting.
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #13 - December 03, 2009, 04:45 PM

    I never ate any of that pig stuff for a while after my de-conversion. But beer was something I went into head-first. Alchohol supplemented my post-apostasy depression and loss of 'friends' quite nicely. I did meet some cool people at the uni bar though.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #14 - December 03, 2009, 04:48 PM

    I started on the beer well before my formal apostacy, but pork well afterwards

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  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #15 - December 03, 2009, 04:56 PM

    Quote
    I started on the beer well before my formal apostacy, but pork well afterwards


    I still don't drink or eat pork but at least I won't have to take my daughter to the main section of the mosque when she's young and then tell her when she's older (9?) that she has to take the back entrance and pray in the store room.

    I'm sure the sisters have a fine time in there but that's how it is in the main mosque in this city - and the mosque council has been stacked with "progressives" including women for a long time now.

    Black Dog I feel sad too sometimes that I'll never again feel that cliched "sweetness of iman" but that's just a sanctimonious high when there's so much crap around. Last time I went to the mosque with my wife there was only one other woman there and both of them had to pray in the library adjacent to the main hall. The khatib had seen them but his whole lecture was interspersed with sentences commencing with "Brothers and elders...."


    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #16 - December 03, 2009, 06:54 PM

    Hi everyone that I haven?t said hi to yet Smiley

    Doubt has been lingering for more than 2 weeks. I can pinpoint to where my faith started slowly disseminating and it was months ago. Two of my friends confronted me about Aisha and the prophet and evolution in relation to the creation story. I couldn?t defend myself, I can?t get irrational and start spewing angry comments, if I am beat intellectually I shut up, rather not talk then say something foolish (still say stupid things though).  And last Ramadan, I tried to read the Quran again, and I struggled, even though I got the latest and best translation (according to Amazon reviews lol), the Oxford World?s Classics one written by Abdel Haleem. I kept putting it off and I also struggled reading Jeffrey Lang?s books. None of it was intellectually stimulating anymore.

    I honestly didn't start with liquor or pork, it all started with McDonalds (damn Zionists!!!). I was going through serious doubts and I kept putting it off while still watching critical videos of Islam and reading like-minded articles lol while I was still praying. Many of my Muslim friends are non-practicing and I used to be that as well. I guess I wanted to go back to this period. I was actually before any of this happened going to become even more religious:
    Not sit in a bar or a place where people drink
    Not buy pizza from a non-halal place because of the utensils
    I was thinking about getting married (even though I don?t want to), I also thought about moving to another Muslim country even though I have a great job where I live and it pays really well.
    I guess I got tired of the religious practices and prohibitions so I decided that I would still be a Muslim, salvage whatever remained of my faith but do some of the things that I used to do and that my friends still do. I kept telling myself that there is no compulsion in religion/Islam even though in the back of my mind another voice was going yes but that verse was abrogated lol
    I kept thinking but what about all these Muslims eating non halal and drinking, nothing wrong with them, and another voice in the back of my mind said you are not a follower you have to lead you own life and by own example because you will be judged for your own actions, "shall I believe as the fools believe?" (Yes I now believe that I should: D)
    Anyways, there were other things that happened to me, I had at one point become ultra religious (no music, no squeezing the old snake GASP GASP!!) all for the sweetness of iman which during this period was intoxicating, it was actually one of the best periods of my life in that sense too bad it had a most adverse effect on me. I?ve always had a bit of ocd, this period made it even worse, I had mental ocd, I couldn?t even think of dirty jokes, having been a huge fan of Chris Rock and Eddie Murphy this was especially weird. I also went no wank for 4 months, seeing how I don?t have sex dreams and I didn?t have any sexual thoughts at all, I repressed it all because I didn?t want to disrespect women due to  guarding my private parts and keeping my glance down (my inner glance as well). Honestly I did it for the ladies, didn?t want my mind doing the freaky things it used to do, that was rude and sexist (tell that to the 50 million sperms trying to escape everyday).
    But there was a way out, swoag mutah, shia way of temporary marriage. However for the past 7 months I have been praying for this to happen since I don?t want to jerk off and I can?t get married (and I honestly don?t want to, feel forced) I prayed for a good girl that I can do temporary marriage with and thus save myself. I had encounters with three girls, one ditched me; she was Christian, she never showed up again, the second was an agnostic and the third was an atheist lol haha thinking about it that must have been a sign. And I didn?t do anything with the girls because in temporary marriage she has to be of the book or a Muslim. I didn?t know how to solve this matter, it?s impossible to keep down the sexual urge, fasting to keep it down would be tough because I work, and it?s hard to focus, also working out means an increase in testosterone which means even a stronger sexual urge. Reading some shia madthabs they said it is halal to do temporary marriage with a prostitute as long as she knows it?s a religious practice lol I have always been adverse to prostitution and I realize that it has been institutionalized in Iran but I kept thinking so what I?m not doing it for that reason (I just want to get laid lol but not to the point where I pay for it, even though this is what you essentially do, this paying part is wrapped up in giving a gift, her mahr lol).
    Anyways one day after working out I decided to stay on the bus and went past my usual stop and then I decided I will go to McDonalds. I had never had a cheese burger or a big Mac in my life and I wanted to more than anything else. So I get off the bus knowing there is Micky D in the near proximity but I?m not sure where it is so I walk down the street, and I do not find it. I am now in despair, I really want that cheese burger and then I see it, the sign, the M arch shining in bright yellow beckoning me on, an oasis in a halal desert so I walk in all giddy like wanting to jump and down like a small kid (realizing that it?s the worst junk food ever). I walk up to the cashier and I take a look at the menu and I go I want to order a quarter pounder with cheese, a big Mac and a cheese burger, with fries and a coke. In one single breath. 
    I walk over to my table and I?m delirious, it smells so good, I?m not sure what to start with, I already have the big Mac and the cheese burger, the QP will take some time, so I start off with the cheese burger and it?s pretty damn good, it was well worth it! Then I take one bite from the QP and I?m a total convert, I?m sold, that?s it I?m not going back to halal, it?s too good! Feelings of guilt come up but I tell myself this is just a response from the right side of my brain, and when I start eating the big Mac (pretty full by now) George Harrison?s song my sweet lord starts playing lol
    Three days later I decided to give beer a(nother) try, I had never liked it before and this time I was going to find out why, turns out I don?t like light beer, dark beer is nice (I need to try Newcastle, Stella and Guinness stout) and I loved mojito shit was goooood, and didn?t like wine, red or white. So next time more LIQOUR!!! Oh how I have missed you White Russian, Oh, Vodka Red Bull have you missed me as I have missed you? Here?s looking at you kid. 

    Also during that night I spoke with a super pretty girl at the bar and didn?t feel like having to take her number, it was just fun talking and dancing, but I do regret not taking her number when I came home lol hahaha DOH!!!

    Anyways I am still reading and studying and it?s getting harder to believe again. I mean the inconsistencies and contradictions, the way the Quran was compiled, Aisha, the murder of Jews and the poets, the "scientific miracles", the exodus, Noah?s ark, the way earth is described, the hadiths and the behavior, the adulation of the imams (that they can intercede), theory of evolution and so on and so on (I will post more academic posts regarding the matters later).
    And I want to be free, like the black man said in Amistad GIVE ME FREEE GIVE MEE FREEEEE
    Why can?t I choose? Why do I have to make myself believe? When I don?t really believe intellectually? Or have severe doubts?
    Also it seemed more and more that I did everything myself in life and never really had help, I would never dare to think this before, I mean I could clearly see the dots connecting the actions results and it all leading to whatever current position I was in but I kept thinking Nay Surely Allah has helped me and it blasphemous and ungrateful to say otherwise.
    Another point was how people compromised their religions, as I had been doing, and only for four months managed not to do and it drove my batshit crazy. Liberal/Moderate (whatever the fuck that means) Muslims interpreted religions their way, they were adverse to Afghanistan, Iran and Saudi (like Jeffery Lang when he was in Saudi). When I explained to my friend how I also compromised my faith to my friend, things like listening to music, he said do what you can. What the fuck? Then I can do more? Or I have to strive to do as little as I want? GIVE ME FREE!!!
    Something else that made my belief system come crashing down (it's not down totally, I keep telling myself that, it?s still on the boxing mat, wheezing, while the referee is counting down maybe it will make it up for another round but I seriously doubt it) was the last girl that I had temporary marriage with. I believed it was a gift from God. We made it work out, you can imagine the awkwardness of the process but anyways I always prayed for a good girl, like decent, it turns out she cheated on me with my colleague and friend whom I was sharing my first drinks with lol. Well, cheated is harsh; we weren?t together but decided to remain faithful only to each other.  She had the intention of once breaking that pact, so did I, BUT she at another time did break it. 
    When it came to pork, a week or so later, I came with the great idea that how can I eat unhalal even if I utter Allah?s name over it? Surely then pork can also work in the same way? Not that I say bismallah anymore. And then I thought pork is a cultural thing, it?s loathed because there is no pork or hard to come by in the Middle East, drinking and non halal meat seem almost "ok" but pork is BAD? No way! So I bought my fav snack, bacon flavored chips (I had it once and stopped eating once I realized that it contained actual traces of pork, I always thought it was  just a  spice, silly I know, like there is some bacon spice out there that you can sprinkle on your fries) I also got myself beer sausage, yummy!! And I can?t wait till eat bacon: D

    hahah it all seems random and that I?m gleefully happy, but the truth is that this is who I am and how I am. I am spontaneous and gleeful, like a big kid basically. But I have thought and read and studied and any time I start thinking about my religion I keep thinking about where it came from, how it was made, I keep thinking about scholars holding this religion by its very threads, all the apologists having full time jobs apologizing, all the scientific Muslim scholars that should be without theirs. I tell myself I never really studied it objectively, I took it for granted and I ignored it. That for a long time doubt has crept up, asked ugly questions, and I?ve beaten it down to submission. Still today, I am not sure where I stand but I know one thing, I will keep reading and keep pushing on.

    I will write more I just have to say I love this forum, I still have little fear left and guilt I guess, a bit sad but it feels very relieving to be free, to be able to think freely and do what I wanna do Cheesy

  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #17 - December 03, 2009, 07:17 PM

    lol @ the Mcdonalds story  Cheesy

    That is the best de-conversion story ever, especially since the spark was fast food. LOL

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #18 - December 03, 2009, 07:48 PM

    WALL OF TEXT

    That was shit long, but I read every bit of it, and it was enjoyable  Afro

    HAIL McDonalds  Cheesy

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #19 - December 03, 2009, 07:52 PM

    haha thanks guys Cheesy
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #20 - December 03, 2009, 07:59 PM

     grin12 McDonalds as the agent of Satan, huh? That sounds plausible. Welcome to the forum. Nice intro.  Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #21 - December 03, 2009, 08:03 PM

    Anyways one day after working out I decided to stay on the bus and went past my usual stop and then I decided I will go to McDonalds. I had never had a cheese burger or a big Mac in my life and I wanted to more than anything else. So I get off the bus knowing there is Micky D in the near proximity but I?m not sure where it is so I walk down the street, and I do not find it.I am now in despair, I really want that cheese burger and then I see it, the sign, the M arch shining in bright yellow beckoning me on, an oasis in a halal desert so I walk in all giddy like wanting to jump and down like a small kid (realizing that it?s the worst junk food ever). I walk up to the cashier and I take a look at the menu and I go I want to order a quarter pounder with cheese, a big Mac and a cheese burger, with fries and a coke. In one single breath. 
    I walk over to my table and I?m delirious, it smells so good, I?m not sure what to start with, I already have the big Mac and the cheese burger, the QP will take some time, so I start off with the cheese burger and it?s pretty damn good, it was well worth it! Then I take one bite from the QP and I?m a total convert, I?m sold, that?s it I?m not going back to halal

     Cheesy What country are you from?  And what made you suddenly change that day from a muslim monk to want to go to McDonalds on the bus?

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  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #22 - December 03, 2009, 08:05 PM

    That was a brilliant deconversion story. Afro
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #23 - December 03, 2009, 08:58 PM

    haha thanks everyone, glad you enjoyed

    @IsLame

    well honestly (there has been a lot of that lately) i had put it off for a week or so, i was also during this period checking this site out, hassan had a great impact on me, i had for example at point wondered about the whole zaid issue, on my own, and i checked lang's theory on it, but why was i still in doubt? was i still looking at these sites? why when i prayed for guidance and to bring me close to god I kept having doubts, i kept ending up on sites such as these? i had ignored sites such as these for a very long while, and i stumbled upon it i glanced at the information and left... some will say will you kept coming back, but the thing is that i didn?t start having doubts because of iman issues, i had issues dealing with the rationality, morality and logic of some of the verses and hadiths

    i honestly dont have a good answer, i just went for it, it was building up for a while, and true zionists know how to put mental ideas in the brains of muslims (i am joking dont worry) the shaitan while pissing in my ear (im sure he had good reason, the shaitan always has a good reason) must have also greased my ear canals with the cheese burger grease, just imagine if I would have started the chain of decadence at burger king, I would have apostatized right there and then


    i dont want to lie so i'll just say i live in northern europe and leave it at that, maybe one day i'll come out but for now im happy storing mcd burger wrappers in the closet Cheesy

    funny how not being religious makes you more moral or is that just wish-full thinking?  Roll Eyes
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #24 - December 03, 2009, 09:05 PM

    funny how not being religious makes you more moral or is that just wish-full thinking?  Roll Eyes

    It happened to me - I think itmight be because I felt personally responsible for your thoughts, ideas and actions.  After the long journey I felt I had had a long fight to stand for what I believed in, and it was not all in vain.

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  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #25 - December 04, 2009, 12:20 AM


    That McDonalds story made me laugh out loud  Afro


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #26 - December 28, 2009, 12:22 AM

    Thank you for the "Seasons in the Sun" video IsLame. I love that song. It still makes my eyes water.

    And a belated welcome to you, BlackDog.

    /Stefan
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #27 - December 28, 2009, 12:26 AM

    Thank you for the "Seasons in the Sun" video IsLame. I love that song. It still makes my eyes water.

    Me too, I'm a sentiment fart too Wink

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  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #28 - December 28, 2009, 12:45 AM

    Thanks Stefan!

    Is this the song?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd_Fdly3rX8
  • Re: My very first post here :)
     Reply #29 - December 28, 2009, 01:03 AM

    Yup.

    *boohoo*
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