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 Topic: Heliocentrism and Islam

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  • Heliocentrism and Islam
     OP - December 06, 2009, 09:17 PM
    In the 16th century when Copernicus presented his theory for a heliocentric universe what was the viewpoint of the muslim world? When Kepler and Galileo expounded on the theory, what was the viewpoint still?

    Are we correct to assume or state that the viewpoint of muslims and Islam according to hadith and quran is that of a geocentric view? If so, can we see this proven in tafsirs? And thus, there must have been objections in the Islamic world when the heliocentric point of view was presented with clear proofs.

    In fact, reading the quran today and interpreting it literally it should make you wonder whether the heliocentric view is correct at all, as it does not (at least that's how i have interpreted it) adhere to a heliocentric universe but that of a geocentric one.


    Comments? Answers?

    Smiley
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #1 - December 06, 2009, 09:26 PM
    The idea of a heliocentric model was entertained in the medeival Islamic world, however, Aristotles geocentric universe was accepted.

    Moreover the Qur'an clearly refers to a geocentric universe, in verse 21:33

    And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.

    Clearly talking about a geocentric universe, even though Zakir Naik reckons it is talking about the sun rotating around the centre of the galaxy.

    Here is a quote from Sheiikh Ibn Baz in the 20th Century:

    Quote
    The Holy Koran, the Prophet?s teachings, the majority of Islamic scientists, and the actual facts all prove that the sun is running in its orbit . . . and that the earth is fixed and stable, spread out by God for his mankind. . . . Anyone who professed otherwise would utter a charge of falsehood toward God, the Koran, and the Prophet.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #2 - December 06, 2009, 09:37 PM
    Fantastic reply.
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #3 - December 07, 2009, 10:42 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on December 06, 2009, 09:26 PM
    The idea of a heliocentric model was entertained in the medeival Islamic world, however, Aristotles geocentric universe was accepted.

    Moreover the Qur'an clearly refers to a geocentric universe, in verse 21:33

    And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.

    Clearly talking about a geocentric universe, even though Zakir Naik reckons it is talking about the sun rotating around the centre of the galaxy.

    Here is a quote from Sheiikh Ibn Baz in the 20th Century:



    Many Muslims would tell you thats a fabrication!! Its a fabrication you filthy Jewish Kaafir!! dance
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #4 - December 08, 2009, 08:12 AM
    Was that the dude who was the big mufti or whatever in KSA a few years back?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #5 - December 08, 2009, 09:36 AM
    Apparently he reracted it before he died and the Saudi officials indicated any attempt to claim he said it considered character assassination:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Aziz_ibn_Abd_Allah_ibn_Baaz

    Seems he believed it earlier on in the 70's then realized he was an idiot and changed his mind or had his mind changed for him as he grew older.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #6 - December 08, 2009, 09:37 AM
    Yes that's the guy I was thinking of. Of course the fact that he realised he was wrong wouldn't mean the Quran was wrong.  whistling2
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #7 - December 08, 2009, 09:44 AM
    lol talk about FAIL!
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #8 - December 08, 2009, 09:44 AM
    6200+ verses in the koran, Earth is mentioned 420 times. I think the Koran itself is geocentric  piggy
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #9 - December 08, 2009, 12:41 PM
    It is so stupid how Zakir Naik comes to the conclusion that 21:33 means that the sun orbits around the centre of the galaxy. To any person who was looking at it objectively, it clearly states that the sun and the moon orbit the earth. And also, in a verse about night and day, why would god go off on a tangent and say that the sun goes around the centre of the galaxy?!

    It Goes something like this:

    Zakir Naik: "I know that the Earth orbits the sun. But I also know that the Qur'an is the infallible word of Allah. So surely the verse cannot mean that the sun orbits the Earth. Therefore it must mean that the Sun orbits the centre of the Galaxy! Oh my god! A scientific miracle!"

    So he has taken an erroneous scientific assumption and turned it round and made it into a scientific miracle! What a nob!
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #10 - December 08, 2009, 03:13 PM
    Quote
    And also, in a verse about night and day, why would god go off on a tangent and say that the sun goes around the centre of the galaxy?!

    Because when the sun orbits the galaxy under earth, it is night, when it orbits the galaxy above earth, it is day. Capicce?
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #11 - December 08, 2009, 04:02 PM
    Quote from: Baal on December 08, 2009, 09:36 AM
    Apparently he reracted it before he died and the Saudi officials indicated any attempt to claim he said it considered character assassination:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Aziz_ibn_Abd_Allah_ibn_Baaz

    Seems he believed it earlier on in the 70's then realized he was an idiot and changed his mind or had his mind changed for him as he grew older.

    According to what I read and heard, it was not limited to him, but this view was also shared amongst major Saudi-Salafi Scholars

    I know many Muslims, use this to criticize Saudi-Salafi's and their opinions.

    Of course Saudi-Salafi's respond by saying this is fabrication, and the book in which Ibn Baz put forth his opinions, "Al'Adella Al'Naqliyah Wal His'yah ala Jaraya'an Al'Shams Wa Sukoon Al'Ardh Wa Imkaan as'Su?ood e'la Al'kawakib" (The Textual and the Sensible Evidences on the Movement of the Sun, the Motionlessness of the Earth, and the Possibility of Space travel), doesn't exist.
    For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who refuse to understand, no explanation is possible.
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #12 - December 08, 2009, 04:29 PM
    I talked to guys in cairo in 2008 and in 2009, who still cling to the flat earth. I asked them if they been on a plane and one of them said he got on a plane when he went to hajj.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #13 - December 08, 2009, 05:16 PM
    Quote from: Baal on December 08, 2009, 04:29 PM
    I talked to guys in cairo in 2008 and in 2009, who still cling to the flat earth. I asked them if they been on a plane and one of them said he got on a plane when he went to hajj.


    What dumbasses LOL. Seriously, its 2009, are they living under a rock?
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #14 - December 08, 2009, 05:18 PM
    Real life flat earthers?

    Only in Islam. Only in Islam..
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #15 - December 08, 2009, 05:25 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 08, 2009, 05:18 PM
    Real life flat earthers?

    Only in Islam. Only in Islam..


    Naaaaaaa lol. I heard there was also a small flat earther group in the United States. Cheesy
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #16 - December 08, 2009, 05:51 PM
    lmao so it's either islam is wrong or the world is flat


    OR

    our interpretation of islam is wrong, yes we always have the "call a scholar" option
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #17 - December 08, 2009, 05:58 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on December 08, 2009, 05:51 PM
    lmao so it's either islam is wrong or the world is flat


    OR

    our interpretation of islam is wrong, yes we always have the "call a scholar" option


    I know one Muslim who said this, and please hear me out.

    He says that the Qur'an says that the world is flat and how the stars are in our atmosphere!! I told him "thats an error isn't it"? He said thats NOT AN ERROR finmad
    I felt like getting a crowbar and smacking him with it. The nerve of that prick.

    He told me in an arrogant smug manner "under what basis?" He basically said how the Qur'an was revealed to beduins and illeterate people, so Allah said that the world is flat and how the stars are in our atmosphere, and he said its no error.

    FUCKING HELL, why are people so stubborn and stupid?

    He is that type of guy where you can never win an argument with. If you were to debate him, you would lose your mind due to his stubbornness and arrogance.
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #18 - December 08, 2009, 08:56 PM
    i'm going to do my best marlon brando impression and say this:

    The horror... the horror...
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #19 - December 09, 2009, 09:33 AM
    yeah there's flat earth believers in the USA, called the flat earth society. It's frickin' 2010 almost, and technology is evolving before ours eyes. this isn't the 1500s or something where there's only theories. people have gone to space, and took pictures if i'm right
    Closets after closets
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #20 - December 09, 2009, 10:21 AM
    Actually I remember watching this youtube video of two Iraqis debating whether the earth is flat or not. And one of the guys was convinced it?s flat and he was proving it with verses from Quran. The other guy was in disbelief, he kept telling him we have space travel and how there are different time-zones and so on. It was quite funny actually. At the time I thought that flat earth muslim was simply wrong, but he couldn't be, if you read the quran literally and interpret it literally, it's quite obvious the quran is describing a flat earth.
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #21 - December 09, 2009, 05:26 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuYLvqqn8Rw
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #22 - December 12, 2009, 07:31 AM
    Its even worst when you read the hadiths explaining the verses you are talking about (because his followers would ask him what he meant, and to give more detail)

    Sah?h Muslim (159,205). Its text, as related by Ab? Dharr al-Ghif?r?, is as follows:

    Quote
    The Prophet (peace be upon him) said one day: ?Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets??

    They said: ?Allah and His Messenger know best.?

    He said: ?It goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: ?Arise! Go back from whence you came.? Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: ?Arise! Go back from whence you came.? Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes without people finding anything wrong with it until it arrives at that place of settlement it has beneath the throne. Then it will be told: ?Arise! Enter upon the morning rising from your setting place?.?
    Then Allah?s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: ?Do you know when that will be? It will be when ?its faith will not avail a soul which had not believed before or earned some good from its faith. [S?rah al-An`?m: 157]?.?


    I also always loved the whole thing about the sun rising in the west on the day of judgment....forgetting all the other things wrong with that statement......as the song goes, its always 5 o'clock somewhere.

    jeeze, amazing people still believe in these kooky books, even though they are so full of obvious nonsense. It boggles my mind. I mean, really! WTF are people thinking? I just dont get it
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #23 - December 12, 2009, 07:43 AM
    lol omg i loved that same hadith as well haha and i didn't think of what it was actually saying, i was taking it literally, it actually stopped my mind from working and i saw the sun as a rising thing, because i was thinking of the sun rising where i was living, and just like you said somewhere else there is a different setting. its pretty clear this is how he thought, i dont think he knew how big the world was
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #24 - December 12, 2009, 08:05 AM
    Ya know what else, ya notice that in all these 'holy' books of old, the Western Hemisphere is never mentioned.

    Imagine that! Imagine if just one of these prophets [charlatans] had even mentioned the western friggen hemisphere. Just mentioned the Olmec or the Mayans or something...heck, that there were two giant continents over there, would have been super.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #25 - December 12, 2009, 08:12 AM
    Quote from: Homer on December 12, 2009, 08:05 AM
    Ya know what else, ya notice that in all these 'holy' books of old, the Western Hemisphere is never mentioned.

    Imagine that! Imagine if just one of these prophets [charlatans] had even mentioned the western friggen hemisphere. Just mentioned the Olmec or the Mayans or something...heck, that there were two giant continents over there, would have been super.




    *kafirist goes into a epilectic siezure and begins speaking as if possessed*

    Surah 145:
    1 And lo Allah the most merciful has sent Mo as a mercy unto ye,
    2 So that ye may knowest that he the most high, the all knowing
    3 Knows of some pagan heathens that liveth among the trees far far to the west
    4 For Allah knowest all things, creator, the magnificent!
    5 And these Pagans ye will seek out, for Allah's command is enjoined upon all the Muslimeen!
    6 But ye will need sea going vessels to crosseth the oceans, for Allah made the ocean wide
    7 Wide oceans pleaseth allah, and didest allah mention the dunya is round? Yeah, I probably should have pointed that out earlier. Not flat. Nu uh.
    8 Anywayseth.. for allah is most merciful and commandetht he believers to land at this place far to the west and.... drum roll....
    9 Slaughther them whereever ye may find them! Root them out from their homes and strike terror into their hearts!!
    10 For Allah is Merciful and wise. The Benenficent the all knowing. And most merciful and.. oh yeah I already mentioned mercifical
    11 Anyways, yeah you niggaz better get on that Americas business before the kuffar. Aight?
    12 Walad daaaaaaaw leeen. Ameeeen.

    lol sorry.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #26 - December 12, 2009, 08:23 AM
    Kafiristur rasulu'Llah!

    He could have totally had them beat the Spanish there.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #27 - December 12, 2009, 10:11 AM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 12, 2009, 08:12 AM

    *kafirist goes into a epilectic siezure and begins speaking as if possessed*

    Surah 145:
    1 And lo Allah the most merciful has sent Mo as a mercy unto ye,
    2 So that ye may knowest that he the most high, the all knowing
    3 Knows of some pagan heathens that liveth among the trees far far to the west
    4 For Allah knowest all things, creator, the magnificent!
    5 And these Pagans ye will seek out, for Allah's command is enjoined upon all the Muslimeen!
    6 But ye will need sea going vessels to crosseth the oceans, for Allah made the ocean wide
    7 Wide oceans pleaseth allah, and didest allah mention the dunya is round? Yeah, I probably should have pointed that out earlier. Not flat. Nu uh.
    8 Anywayseth.. for allah is most merciful and commandetht he believers to land at this place far to the west and.... drum roll....
    9 Slaughther them whereever ye may find them! Root them out from their homes and strike terror into their hearts!!
    10 For Allah is Merciful and wise. The Benenficent the all knowing. And most merciful and.. oh yeah I already mentioned mercifical
    11 Anyways, yeah you niggaz better get on that Americas business before the kuffar. Aight?
    12 Walad daaaaaaaw leeen. Ameeeen.

    lol sorry.


    LMAO
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #28 - December 12, 2009, 10:21 AM
    That's really a big deal, when you think about it.
    How hard would it have been? Not hard at all...and imagine how super awesome amazing it would have been (I'd be impressed). So why they heck did allah, in his infinite wisdom, while writing his ultimate book with all the knowledge for mankind and the secrets of the universe, neglect to mention the friggen western hemisphere......unless...... Thinking hard
    It was a bunch of nonsense 'tweets' that a bunch of nutty medieval guys in the desert make up
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Heliocentrism and Islam
     Reply #29 - December 12, 2009, 10:59 AM
    According to some Islamic scholars, Colombus discovered Native Americans who spoke Arabic...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzAVOAa59EA
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
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