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 Topic: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims

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  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #150 - September 11, 2009, 10:55 AM

    how do i know there isn't a little boy named tommy who lives in the back of ur throat? I don't. So he must be there!


    Because we know that little boys living in people's throats is an impossibility. Muslims lying about their beliefs, aims and misrepresenting the Koran to make it more "Kafir friendly" is an established fact.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #151 - September 11, 2009, 10:58 AM

    You mean you converted to "salafism" from another religion or none? Or do you mean you were brought up a "non-salafi" Muslim and became one after studying the Koran?

    I was raised nominally christian. Went to sunday school a few times, but rejected christianity due to anti christian arguments making sense to me, and my viewing most of the church as hypocrites. I was an agnostic atheist before I converted to islam. Upon studying Islam I embraced Salafism because it seemed to me to be the most honest in following the Qur'an and Sunnah.

    Because we know that little boys living in people's throats is an impossibility. Muslims lying about their beliefs, aims and misrepresenting the Koran to make it more "Kafir friendly" is an established fact.

    This little boy is invisible (it's a reference to Stanley Kubrick's "The Shining" Tongue). Believe what you want. It's true some muslims do lie about what they believe, but I believe most are honest. Set up a clinical trial and prove who's right Cheesy.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #152 - September 11, 2009, 11:50 AM

    All you have to do is demonstrate how a "moderate" non-shariaist "interpetation" of the Koran is more valid than Osama bin Laden's. Why should I any more simply accept your claim that "most Muslims are moderates" than the claim of, say, a Ku Klux Klan member that they are not racist and just like dressing up in white robes and burning crosses? If someone belongs to a movement with a particular core ideology and proudly adorn themselves with its symbols it is eminently reasonable to assume that they subscribe to that ideology fully.

    Awesome. I'm astonished by your ability with debate. You, my friend, are a great little robot. You were pre-programmed before you came here (batteries included!) and you're not going to deviate from your programming. You're the sort I like to call "anti-jihadi jihadis". You are every bit as brainwashed and fanatical as any member of al Qaeda, because you will not admit the possibility that you may be wrong. In fact the similarity in mindset between people like you and other extremists is a pretty sound indication that had you been raised under different circumstances you would now be just a fanatically defending the points of view you currently profess to despise.

    Let's look at what you just said.

    First: I don't have to demonstrate anything. Why? Because I am not a Muslim. I'm not the slightest bit interested in the Quran. Couldn't care less about the silly thing. This means that I am not the one who has to convince myself of any interpretation. That is a job for those who wish to be both Muslim and "moderate". Ask them.

    Second: When it comes to religious texts, which always have contradictory elements, the validity or otherwise of interpretations can be argued until the cows come home without anyone making a convincing case. The example of Israel is a good one. It's full of terribly bad Jews who have convinced themselves that they're really being good Jews. How did they do this? They did it by interpreting their texts to suit themselves, which leads to the next point.

    Third: Humans are great at bullshitting. They're extraordinarily good at it. Not only that, but their skills really shine when they are involved in bullshitting themselves. One could almost say it's one of humanity's greatest attributes. They can convince themselves of any old thing if they really want to. This means that if some people want to believe that they can be booze-swilling, pork-scoffing, gay, transvestite, pacifist-to-a-fault Muslims then they'll bloody well find a way of believing it and nothing you can say will stop them.  Which in turn leads to...........

    Fourth: If the Jews can convince themselves that the Laws in Deuteronomy, etc should not actually be applied in real life despite them being directly ordered by the god they profess to worship then why, pray tell, are you so utterly sure that Muslims cannot do similar things? Bad news here. They have already done it. Some of them have been doing it for ages.

    Fifth: Any claims I make cannot be sanely compared to claims made by Ku Klux Klan members. You see, as I have mentioned before, I'm not a Muslim. This means that I am not part of the group about which I am talking. In fact I think Islam is a load of often pernicious waffle. In other words, when I make a claim about Muslims it is not the same as a Ku Klux Klan member making claims about the Klan. It's more like a black civil rights enthusiast making claims about the Klan. Slight difference there. See if you can grasp it.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #153 - September 11, 2009, 03:18 PM

    Upon studying Islam I embraced Salafism because it seemed to me to be the most honest in following the Qur'an and Sunnah.


    And have you altered that assessment?

    Quote
    It's true some muslims do lie about what they believe but I believe most are honest.


    According to one poll taken of Muslims a couple of years back 81% expressed support for the implimentation of sharia in Muslim countries. They were being honest then?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #154 - September 11, 2009, 04:00 PM

    I'll skip over osmanthus's irrelevent babble and come straight to this one:

    Quote
    Fourth: If the Jews can convince themselves that the Laws in Deuteronomy, etc should not actually be applied in real life despite them being directly ordered by the god they profess to worship then why, pray tell, are you so utterly sure that Muslims cannot do similar things?


    Because the identity "Muslim" unlike the identity "Jew" is entirely premised on religious BELIEF and PRACTICE. There can no more be a biblically valid Judaism that accepts the practice of homosexuality than a Koranically valid Islam. However, a practicing homosexual Jew can still validly call himself a "Jew" because the designation, like "Arab", has an ethnic component to it. By contrast a practicing homosexual Muslim who is knowingly flouting Allah's disapproval of his activities has, according to the Koran, left the ranks of the Muslims and joined the disbelievers. It is the Koran and hadith and them alone that define what a "Muslim" is.  It would not be  a problem if the self-proclaimed "gay Muslim" was simply lying to himself. However he is propagating the falsehood to the wider non-Muslim society that there can be a koranically valid "progressive" sodomy-accepting Islam and helping to convince them that the jihadism-shariaism is just one of a range of equally valid interpretations of Islam. This provides "cover" for the so-called "Wahaabists" to pursue their stealth Islamization/shariaization of western countries. Don't you have a problem with that?
     
    Quote
    Fifth: Any claims I make cannot be sanely compared to claims made by Ku Klux Klan members. You see, as I have mentioned before, I'm not a Muslim.


    You are supporting the contention that "non-political Islam" is a meaningful term.It is about as meaningful as "non-political Marxism".

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #155 - September 11, 2009, 04:21 PM

    With respect to this whole issue it is worth bringing in the Jews and asking why they have been so much more successful than the Muslim world in creating a  secular state - Israel - which flagrantly flouts "divine law".

    The answer must be that a Jew can still validly count themselves a Jew even if they keep their foreskin, eat nothing but pork and disbelieve in the very existence of Yaweh. By contrast, a "Muslim" identity is ENTIRELY dependent on religious BELIEF and PRACTICE. An atheist "Muslim" is a contradiction in terms.


    Go to Bosnia or Albania. The Muslims there are largely secular. You have Muslims in Bosnia who openly drink alcohol, don't wear hijab, have pre-marital sex without any shame, and go to mosque a couple of times a year, and yet they still self-identify as "Muslim"-- hell, some of them don't even believe in God at all yet they still culturally identify as Muslim. When you get back, hopefully your head will be separated from your rectum at that time.

    Quote
    By contrast, a "Muslim" identity is ENTIRELY dependent on religious BELIEF and PRACTICE. An atheist "Muslim" is a contradiction in terms.


    You could say the same of Christians-- or just about any religion. Judaism is unique in the fact that even if you're atheist, your parents were atheists, your grandparents were atheists, and you were raised in a non-Jewish community, if your maternal great-grandmother was a practicing Jew, then you're still a Jew. I can't really think of another religion where self-identification is based more on your bloodline than actual religious belief and practice.

    fuck you
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #156 - September 12, 2009, 09:54 AM

    I have just read Hassan's story and found the following he wrote:

    "Little by little doubts began creeping in. At first I tried to suppress them and reacted to criticism of Islam with denial, anger and blame. I denied there was anything wrong, felt hyper-sensitive to criticism and blamed the West for provoking and creating problems. ...It was the way Islam was being interpreted that was the problem. I started arguing for a reinterpretation and reform of traditional views, but instead of easing my conscience, this only highlighted the futility and dishonesty of such views."

    My contention exactly. Seeking to "reform" traditional Islamic views is both FUTILE and DISHONEST as those views are firmly grounded in a religious text that declares Islam "perfect".  So why Hassan has been taking issue with me on a point he actually agrees with is puzzling.

    An earlier passage in the same article likewise endorses my point about the dangers of acquiring and maintaining ANY level of "Muslim" identity and passing it on to any offspring:

    "I was born Muslim but didn?t start practicing until I was twenty when I became very devout and committed. For the next twenty eight years Islam guided every aspect of my life. I completed a BA in Arabic and Islamic Studies at the School of Oriental and African Studies where I became President of the Islamic Society. After leaving university I became Amir of a Da?wah group in North London"

    This is a process I have come across time and time again: a lifelong supposedly "moderate" Muhammadan suddenly becomes fanatically observant. Furthermore, Hassan informs us, he became involved in Da'wah ie seeking to inveigle non-Muslims into his cult!!!! If, at the time Hassan genuinely believed Islam was all sweetness, light, secular non-handchopping peaceful multi-faith coexistence (which is highly dubious to say the least), then he would have to admit that he was, albeit unwittingly, seeking to convert people to Islam on the basis of falsehood. Has it ever worried you, Hassan, that someone who converted to Islam as a result of your Da'wah efforts might have become a terrorist?

    Perhaps Hassan could also tell us what triggered his sudden turn to devoutness in his twenties and if he came to support, morally at least, the aims if not the methods of what is generally referred to as "Islamism".

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #157 - September 12, 2009, 10:18 AM

    Oh shit yeah. Hass went wild-eyed Talibanista to the max. Killed babies for sport and barbecued their remains on a pitchfork. Islam does that to people, as you well know. 

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #158 - September 12, 2009, 10:36 AM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Go to Bosnia or Albania. The Muslims there are largely secular.


    Bosnia and Albania were part of communist states which actively sought to suppress religion. That had its effects which still linger. Despite that the Bosniacs still managed to produce and elect a man like Alija Izetbegovik as president who infamously wrote:

    "There can be no peace or coexistence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic societies and political institutions."

    This was a man who managed to convince numberless western liberals that he was a "moderate"!

    Quote
    You have Muslims in Bosnia who openly drink alcohol, don't wear hijab, have pre-marital sex without any shame, and go to mosque a couple of times a year, and yet they still self-identify as "Muslim"


    So would you attribute their breaking of Allah's eternal commandments to ignorance of the Koran or willful disobedience?

    Quote
    -- hell, some of them don't even believe in God at all yet they still culturally identify as Muslim.


    What does "culturally identify as Muslim" mean exactly?

    Quote
    You could say the same of Christians [ie a "Muslim" identity is ENTIRELY dependent on religious BELIEF and PRACTICE. An atheist "Muslim" is a contradiction in terms.] -- or just about any religion.


    True in the case of Christians. However, to repeat, Christians' basic religious text - The New Testament - does not predispose them to violence and legalism to anything like the extent that the Koran so predisposes those who take that book as the word of Allah. That is why such a disproportionate amount of religious violence etc in the west is emanating from Islam. That is why we are seeing so many Muslimah checkout operators, as opposed to Jews and Christians, with their heads covered. Saying we shouldn't judge Islam by the minority who have planned and executed terrorist attacks is like saying we shouldn't judge Nazism by the MINORITY of party members who took part in Kristalnacht!

    Quote
    Judaism is unique in the fact that even if you're atheist, your parents were atheists, your grandparents were atheists, and you were raised in a non-Jewish community, if your maternal great-grandmother was a practicing Jew, then you're still a Jew. I can't really think of another religion where self-identification is based more on your bloodline than actual religious belief and practice.


    Which does nothing to undermine my argument that a non-religious Jew can still validly call themselves a "Jew" but an "atheist" Muslim is as much a contradiction in terms as an "atheist" Christian.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #159 - September 12, 2009, 10:40 AM

    Oh shit yeah. Hass went wild-eyed Talibanista to the max. Killed babies for sport and barbecued their remains on a pitchfork. Islam does that to people, as you well know. 


    You OK with "moderate" Muslims seeking to convert non-Muslims to their "brand" of "Islam" Osmanthus?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #160 - September 12, 2009, 10:42 AM

    Of course I am. It's called "freedom of speech" and "freedom of religion".  Of course if you don't believe in free societies then I can see why you would object to this.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #161 - September 12, 2009, 11:01 AM

    Quote from: osmanthus
    Of course I am. It's called "freedom of speech" and "freedom of religion".  Of course if you don't believe in free societies then I can see why you would object to this.


    Because

    a) there are sound reasons to believe that so-called "moderate" Muslims seeking converts are not as "moderate" as they make out and their ultimate aim is to impose sharia lock, stock and barrel on the west and thereby destroy the freedoms you claim to support.

    b) where (a) may not be the case the conversion of non-Muslims to so-called "moderate" Islam will facilitate the aims of so-called "political" Islam as well as increase the pool of potential recruits to jihadism.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #162 - September 12, 2009, 11:10 AM

     Cheesy Nice try, sunshine. They are not the freedoms I claim to support. They are the ones I actually do support, unlike you. If people want to preach Islam they should be allowed to. You do not oppose ideologies with totalitarianism. You oppose them with information that allows people to make their own choices. This can be remarkably effective, as the very existence of this site demonstrates.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #163 - September 12, 2009, 11:27 AM

    I have just read Hassan's story and found the following he wrote:

    "Little by little doubts began creeping in. At first I tried to suppress them and reacted to criticism of Islam with denial, anger and blame. I denied there was anything wrong, felt hyper-sensitive to criticism and blamed the West for provoking and creating problems. ...It was the way Islam was being interpreted that was the problem. I started arguing for a reinterpretation and reform of traditional views, but instead of easing my conscience, this only highlighted the futility and dishonesty of such views."

    My contention exactly. Seeking to "reform" traditional Islamic views is both FUTILE and DISHONEST as those views are firmly grounded in a religious text that declares Islam "perfect".  So why Hassan has been taking issue with me on a point he actually agrees with is puzzling.

    An earlier passage in the same article likewise endorses my point about the dangers of acquiring and maintaining ANY level of "Muslim" identity and passing it on to any offspring:

    "I was born Muslim but didn?t start practicing until I was twenty when I became very devout and committed. For the next twenty eight years Islam guided every aspect of my life. I completed a BA in Arabic and Islamic Studies at the School of Oriental and African Studies where I became President of the Islamic Society. After leaving university I became Amir of a Da?wah group in North London"

    This is a process I have come across time and time again: a lifelong supposedly "moderate" Muhammadan suddenly becomes fanatically observant. Furthermore, Hassan informs us, he became involved in Da'wah ie seeking to inveigle non-Muslims into his cult!!!! If, at the time Hassan genuinely believed Islam was all sweetness, light, secular non-handchopping peaceful multi-faith coexistence (which is highly dubious to say the least), then he would have to admit that he was, albeit unwittingly, seeking to convert people to Islam on the basis of falsehood. Has it ever worried you, Hassan, that someone who converted to Islam as a result of your Da'wah efforts might have become a terrorist?

    Perhaps Hassan could also tell us what triggered his sudden turn to devoutness in his twenties and if he came to support, morally at least, the aims if not the methods of what is generally referred to as "Islamism".



    DH, While I was a Christian, i used to think that all nice people would go to heaven regardless of their religion. Then I happened to listen to an evangelical fundie preacher who quoted this verse
    "2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
    In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.
    "
    from which he concluded that all non-Christians are bound for hell, or you have to reject the Bible as the word of God.

    As a Catholic, I was well conditioned to believe that the interpretations of Protestants were literal, doesn't make temporal considerations, ignore 'traditional church teachings', and ignore the authority of the Holy See on interpreting scriptures. So I thought there should be alternative explanations. Inspite of the fact that Catholic church may well have had those bigoted views, I tried to couple this verse with another one "It is not anyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven” (Mt 7:21)."

    So from those two verses, I supposed anybody who is good (i.e "who does the will of God") obeys the "gospel of our lord", and hence would go to heaven. Now that I've lost my belief I know it's very clear that 2 Thess 1:8 means what it literally means. Looking back I would call myself dishonest, but I was not, since I was deluded into believing that God's message can't be bad or intolerant.

    It seems dishonest when you step out of the box, but when you are deluded what you consider dishonest or honest is very relative. This is probably the case with Muslims who honestly believe thier religion means nothing but peace.

    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #164 - September 12, 2009, 12:15 PM

    Hi DH,

    I'm not going to get into this thread again, but will just say that in all the years I was a devout and practising Muslims I always held moderate, peaceful and non-violent view of islam - as did many of the Muslims around me.

    I did eventually come to believe many of the peaceful interpretations were wrong and intellectually dishonest, the deeper I looked into them. But that doesn't mean that the very many peaceful and moderate Muslims are dishonest. They genuinely believe in their peaceful, metaphorical and moderate interpretations.

    I know this will mean nothing to you and as I say I am not going to bother arguing this with you anymore. But since you brought up my blog - I thought I out to make the above points very clear.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #165 - September 12, 2009, 12:49 PM

    Clearly not. Had they done so they would never have taken part in the Crusades! Like I said, when Christians indulged in "holy war" they were acting contrary to the teachings and example of the founder of their religion Jesus of the four gospels. When Muslims do so they are acting IN ACCORD with the commands and example of "Allah and his messenger".  You seem unable or unwilling to appreciate the ramifications of this basic difference between the two creeds.


    I am not denying that Islamism (or Political Islam) exists, or that Islamist nuts are currently more dangerous than the Christian nuts. But it cannot be denied that Islam could be interpreted in a peaceful way, and many Muslims do believe that honestly. Also, Christianity has also been proved to have a powerful apocalyptic tradition that can turn into violence and can make any of its pacifist principles useless, though it's less likely today due to the effects of Western Civilization.

    The Crusaders honestly believed that they were fighting for Christ.

    Quote
    Indeed he did. That was because the Turks had been doing jihad (holy war) all over Anatolia in the prior decades - sacking cities, massacring, raping, pillaging in accordance with the fundamental tenets of their religion which happened to gel nicely with their rapacious mounted-nomad proclivities.


    But the Turks massacred Arabs too, which doesn't gel nicely with the religious principles. Again not all holy wars are fully holy, there are other motives. This argument could be more often used against those who argue that the religion is perfect. Anyway it's off the point; there are all sorts of cherrypicking done by those who want to be either violent or peaceful.

    Quote
    Some cities they attacked. Some they allowed to surrender on terms. Some they bypassed.



    An Arab city(don't remember the name) which intended a truce was attacked. So happened to Jerusalem too, as  I wrote earlier.


    Quote
    From all of which we should deduce?Huh?


    How insane Crusaders had become becuase of their apocalyptic delusions.


    Quote
    I think someone who blows himself and large numbers of innocent bystanders to pieces and would certainly use a nuclear bomb if they obtained one takes some beating in the zealousness stakes!


    I don't think Crusaders would have been any better with nukes.

    Quote
    Maybe, but the four Christian gospels nevertheless espouse "pacifist principles" which led the Pope to retrospectively apologize for the crusades. When has a major Islamic religious ruler ever apologized for centuries of Koran-inspired campaigns of violence launched against "the enemies of Allah" (Koran 8:60)


    The Pope follows an unbroken line from Pope Urban, and has legitimacy in apologizing for the crimes of his predecessors. I'm not sure about the state of Islam with this regard. I don't know and can't say much about that. Besides, we are not in denial of the existance of political Islam.

    Quote
    So why do decades-old Muslim "communities" in western countries - who surely ought by now to be "largely influenced by western civilization" - throw up increasing numbers of people who see it as their religious duty to engage in violence in the name of their god and even more who tacitly support them and their agenda of imposing sharia on the entire world? Why is such a disproportionate amount of religious violence and fanaticism in the west emanating from this quarter? Why are so many Muslims opting to use sharia courts rather than be satisfied with their adopted countries' own legal systems?


    I guess there's the influence of petro-Islam, but also I've heard that some decades back, in places like Britain, racism caused Muslims to look for new Identity. But that climate has changed now, and also Islam is getting more criticism, and is now more likely to be influenced by West, which are probably going to change things. (which is one reason why this site exists)

    Quote
    Which proves that people can be inspired by the bible to commit horrendous acts. What it does NOT prove is that Muslims can ON PRINCIPLE reject sharia and jihad (holy war) and seriously claim they are being true to the Koran. All such people do (where they are not deliberately deceitful wolves in sheeps' clothing) is muddy the waters regarding the nature of Islam and facilitate its spread behind a specious mask of "moderation".


    Disagree again, people can believe almost anything "honestly" by selective interpretation of their texts

    Quote
    You make my point for me, since the Qur'an does little more than "dehumanize" those of us it classes as "Kafirs" whose only "crime" is to refuse to accept Muhammad as prophet. A small sample:


    "We have prepared chains, collars, and a blazing fire for the kafirs"(Koran 76:5)

    Most Muslims are potential killers then? Even you cannot claim that many disagree with such "divine" Koranic sentiments incessantly reiterated page after page along with such other appeals to reason as:

    "the kafirs, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the WORST of created beings.  lo! those who believe and do good works are the BEST of created beings" (98:6-7)


    Do you think the Bible is any better?

    Quote

    Do they agree with the French headscarf ban in schools?


    I'm not sure. But I heard some Muslim politican in France also wanted to ban the Burkha.

    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #166 - September 12, 2009, 02:29 PM

    "then he would have to admit that he was seeking to convert people to Islam on the basis of falsehood. Has it ever worried you, Hassan, that someone who converted to Islam as a result of your Da'wah efforts might have become a terrorist?"


    DH, you are ridiculous. Completely and utterly, ridiculous.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #167 - September 12, 2009, 03:53 PM

    Why is it ridiculous?  I wouldnt be surprised if its hassans worst fear, and I am sure he has mentioned in the past that he is uncomfortable with the number of young minds he was attempting to influence.  It might also partly help to explain what drives him now..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #168 - September 12, 2009, 04:08 PM

    Why is it ridiculous?  I wouldnt be surprised if its hassans worst fear, and I am sure he has mentioned in the past that he is uncomfortable with the number of young minds he was attempting to influence.  It might also partly help to explain what drives him now..


    No it is not my worst fear - I certainly do not believe that any of the children who came into contact with me as their teacher got anything other than extremism is against Islam and that Muslims should be peaceful, loving, moderate and try to integrate more into British society - because everyone who knew me back then knows that is where I stood.

    In fact I doubt any children from Islamia School became extremists as all the teachers there worked hard to counter the extremism that does exist in more narrow-minded parts of the community.

    If any did become extremists it would have been because of extremist elements in the community - not Islamia School - and certainly not me.

    I did once express regret that many children looked up to me and liked me and so as a consequence may have thought Islam must be true if a guy like Teacher Hassan was a Muslim. Yes I regret that - a little - but then again perhaps I also helped many of them to think for themselves. I know of at least two of my ex-pupils who are now ex-Muslims and say I was a big influence on them.

    In all my 15 years at Islamia I don't know of ONE who became an extremist.


  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #169 - September 12, 2009, 04:28 PM

    Of course I am not suggesting you taught extremism - in fact I doubt many extremists were taught extremism from childhood.  However ingraining Islam into a childs conscious from an early age, makes it harder for them to shake of Islam later in life.

    In any case as it does bother you on some level, then it shouldnt. 

    If you had not taught them, then someone else would have.  I think you have more than made up with the power of your youtube videos.  In their case, had you not done them there would not be replaced by someone else. 

    And if you compare the number of views you have on your channel (far more than 20,000) it would make the number you taught at Islamia school insignifanct.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #170 - September 12, 2009, 05:18 PM

    Bosnia and Albania were part of communist states which actively sought to suppress religion. That had its effects which still linger.


    So? Political and social conditions have a tendency to affect religious belief and practice. Who cares why you're wrong about Muslims being incapable of having a moderate, secular society? The Azeris and other Central Asian former USSR republics are good examples as well. It should also be noted that the USSR and Yugoslavia did not go nearly as far in suppressing religion as Albania did.

    Quote
    This was a man who managed to convince numberless western liberals that he was a "moderate"!


    That's because he governed as a moderate.

    Quote
    So would you attribute their breaking of Allah's eternal commandments to ignorance of the Koran or willful disobedience?


    Again, who gives a fuck? I mean, I can understand why YOU give a fuck, as examples of moderate, secular Muslim societies challenge your bigoted notions, causing much cognitive dissonance, thus desperately seeking explanations for them. Maybe it's as you say, because they come from Communist societies which influenced the practice of Islam there. If so, maybe you'd like to become a Communist? I kinda doubt it, though. I find it funny that the same people who bitched about Communism are the same people bitching about radical Islam today, even though the former was the only thing that kept radical Islam in check (and in some cases, which I listed above, permanently stunted its development) for many decades.

    Quote
    What does "culturally identify as Muslim" mean exactly?


    Exactly what it sounds like. Someone who lives a secular lifestyle in a secular community but still self-identifies as Muslim, as do most of the people in their community.

    Quote
    True in the case of Christians. However, to repeat, Christians' basic religious text - The New Testament - does not predispose them to violence and legalism to anything like the extent that the Koran so predisposes those who take that book as the word of Allah.


    Stop pretending that Christians don't put any stock in the OT-- it's still part of their holy book. I don't know where the fuck you live, but here in America, there are plenty of Protestants that are quite fond of using the OT to justify violence, religious intolerance and discrimination against homosexuals. The largest Protestant church here, the Southern Baptist Convention, came about just prior to the Civil War because while their Northern Baptist bretheren thought the NT made slavery unjustified, the Southern Baptists thought the OT said it was cool.

    So you can bring up the example of the Amish and other pacifist sects all you like, but the fact is, in my country at least, they are the minority, and there are a whole lot of Christians here who place a great deal of emphasis on the violent and bigoted nastiness you can find in the OT (and there's even some in the NT-- quit pretending like that section of the Bible is all roses and puppies and rainbows).

    Quote
    That is why such a disproportionate amount of religious violence etc in the west is emanating from Islam.

     

    Yes, it is a reason, perhaps even the primary one, but the fact that you willfully ignore any other reasons is cause enough to believe you have your head up your ass.

    Quote
    Saying we shouldn't judge Islam by the minority who have planned and executed terrorist attacks is like saying we shouldn't judge Nazism by the MINORITY of party members who took part in Kristalnacht!


    Stop being a tard.

    Quote
    Which does nothing to undermine my argument that a non-religious Jew can still validly call themselves a "Jew" but an "atheist" Muslim is as much a contradiction in terms as an "atheist" Christian.


    No, just puts it in the proper context-- you are using the argument to demonstrate that Islam is the worst of all religions (or something close to that), but it's a dumb argument because since Jewish identity is not necessarily predicated on belief and practice (unlike most other religions), the fact you can be an "atheist Jew" only highlights the unique nature of Jewish identity, but makes no relative qualitative judgments on Islam or any other religion.

    Because

    a) there are sound reasons to believe that so-called "moderate" Muslims seeking converts are not as "moderate" as they make out and their ultimate aim is to impose sharia lock, stock and barrel on the west and thereby destroy the freedoms you claim to support.

    b) where (a) may not be the case the conversion of non-Muslims to so-called "moderate" Islam will facilitate the aims of so-called "political" Islam as well as increase the pool of potential recruits to jihadism.


    For a second I'll suppose your paranoid "all Muslims are out to get us and the moderate ones are lying" nonsense is actually valid-- such a consequentialist (and highly speculative) argument cannot negate fundamental, natural rights in a free society. Otherwise speculative future consequences could be used as justification for state repression of just about any religious belief or practice, or any secular political speech, belief, or free association.

    I can just imagine how that would play out in my own society-- let's ban this moderate tax protest group because it's a potential breeding ground for violent right-wing extremists and could produce more Tim McVeighs, or the government should shut down the Democratic Socialists of America because that increases the pool of potential recruits to some sort of Stalinist organization that would take away the very freedoms you claim to support.

    fuck you
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #171 - September 12, 2009, 05:58 PM

    Maybe it's as you say, because they come from Communist societies which influenced the practice of Islam there. If so, maybe you'd like to become a Communist? I kinda doubt it, though. I find it funny that the same people who bitched about Communism are the same people bitching about radical Islam today, even though the former was the only thing that kept radical Islam in check (and in some cases, which I listed above, permanently stunted its development) for many decades.


    Just a minor thing. It may be true that Communism and Islamism sound like polar opposites. But people could percieve that there is something common between them that stands against their freedoms, given what they know about Stalin, Mao, N.Korea etc, not saying that they are enitrely correct though.




    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #172 - September 12, 2009, 06:18 PM

    Well, I think that's mostly irrelevant to what I was talking about, but generally speaking, I'd prefer to live under Communist oppression than under Islamist oppression. I think most of us would. Russia under Stalin, the DPRK, Hoxhaist Albania, Maoist China, Romania under Ceaucescu-- those are the only regimes in the Communist world I think I would like to live in even less than, say Saudi Arabia. But the USSR at any time after Stalin, Poland, East Germany, Bulgaria, Hungary, post-Mao China, Czechoslovakia, Cuba, Sandanista Nicaragua, Democratic Republic of Afghanistan-- any of those I'd choose over any of the Gulf States or modern Iran or Afghanistan in a fuckin heartbeat. And Yugoslavia was arguably the freest of all of the Communist regimes.

    And I say that as a MAN. If I were a woman, I dunno-- I might rather take my chances in Hoxha's Albania, Ceaucescu's Romania, or maybe even Stalin's USSR/Mao's China over living in Saudi Arabia.

    fuck you
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #173 - September 12, 2009, 11:52 PM

    Why is it ridiculous?  I wouldnt be surprised if its hassans worst fear, and I am sure he has mentioned in the past that he is uncomfortable with the number of young minds he was attempting to influence.  It might also partly help to explain what drives him now..



    To suggest that someone ought to worry about how he may have influenced someone who may have got into extremism over 20 years ago. And to say it in a way that denotes he should feel guilty about it - that is ridiculous. You guess way too much Islame, as Hass's reply to the above shows and your somewhat naive comment about Yusuf Islam a few weeks ago. Woah, hold those reins steady.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #174 - September 13, 2009, 11:19 AM

    This video is for you DH Smiley

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO00lao-AOE
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #175 - September 14, 2009, 12:16 PM

    Cheesy Nice try, sunshine. They are not the freedoms I claim to support. They are the ones I actually do support, unlike you.[ If people want to preach Islam they should be allowed to.

     

    Lets see what else you are "happy" with os:

    Hundreds of imposing mosques in western countries some blaring out the Islamic call to prayer five times a day?

    Islamic schools?

    Increasing numbers of Muslim female workers in shops, offices and elsewhere dressed in Islamic garb?

    Large western store chains stocking halal products?

    "Sharia-compliant" financial products?

    Are you also "happy" with those developments?Huh?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #176 - September 14, 2009, 12:30 PM



    Lets see what else you are "happy" with os:

    Hundreds of imposing mosques in western countries some blaring out the Islamic call to prayer five times a day?

    Islamic schools?

    Increasing numbers of Muslim female workers in shops, offices and elsewhere dressed in Islamic garb?

    Large western store chains stocking halal products?

    "Sharia-compliant" financial products?

    Are you also "happy" with those developments?Huh?


    Better than living in a world run by people like you.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #177 - September 14, 2009, 12:44 PM

    Now isn't that typical. I offer the dude a chance to actually do something positive and he runs away. Go figure.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #178 - September 14, 2009, 12:45 PM

    lol... are you surprised Oz  grin12
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #179 - September 14, 2009, 12:49 PM

    Flabbergasted. Destroyed me faith in human nature it did.  cool2

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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