Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims

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- Colonel Q-Daffi
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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #300 - September 24, 2009, 10:27 PM

Quote from: DH on September 24, 2009, 04:46 PM
Nice try with the white supremacist slur. Sorry to disappoint you but that ain't me.

Didn't say you were, just said it was as pointless debating you here as trying to convince Nazis that Jews aren't so bad. It's not that you are a Nazi, but your ideological obsession and commitments prevent you from seeing anything from a perspective that deviates even slightly from your own presuppositions and worldview.

You're here to basically make the argument that all Muslims are bad, and if they aren't bad, than they're not really Muslims-- use all the fancy wording and clever arguments you want, but that's what it boils down to, and since the vast majority of members here don't agree with you, myself included, the debate is fuckin pointless. But hey, if you wanna go on thinking that I stopped substantive debate with you because I was incapable of intelligently or adequately addressing your arguments, go for it. Just like I eventually gave up on trying to convince my religious friends there is no big man in the sky that will save them, if it comforts you to believe in a fantasy, so be it, I could give a fuck less.

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Bosnian Serbs didn't want to be slaughtered either - as they were in large numbers before Srebrenica. Nor, having experienced the joys of Muslim rule for 500 years, did they wish to be forced into Izetbegovic's "multi-cultural" paradise. Do you have any sympathy for their position?

Yes I do, because regardless of who was largely the aggressor in the conflict (whoever you believe that to be, debating that with you would be as pointless as the rest as you'd just neatly fit everything into your "Muslims bad" worldview), unlike you, my sympathy for people is not contingent on their religious or ethnic identity.

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While you were there you might like to seek out some Bosnian Serbs and ask them if there were any atrocities committed against their people by Muslim forces and their al-Qaeda friends during the Balkans conflict. Could you do that?

No, I could never do that, because during my entire trip I will refuse to speak to any Bosnian Serbs because I'm such a militant pro-Bosniak separatist.

Fuckin tard.

I'm not going to lend my support to a war that's been over and done with for a decade now-- I'm going as a tourist because some of my Bosnian friends said I would enjoy myself if I went, and I like going to new places and meeting new people. So yeah, if some Bosnian Serb wants to jaw to me about their perspective of the conflict, I'm all fuckin ears. Quit thinking I'm a bigot like you who pre-judges people on the basis of their religious or ethnic identity.

fuck you
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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #301 - September 25, 2009, 02:41 PM

Quote from: Q-man
It's not that you are a Nazi, but your ideological obsession and commitments prevent you from seeing anything from a perspective that deviates even slightly from your own presuppositions and worldview.

You're here to basically make the argument that all Muslims are bad, and if they aren't bad, than they're not really Muslims--

Where have I stated or implied that everybody who calls themselves a "Muslim" is "bad"?

A "Muslim" (an unquestioning submitter to the will of "Allah") is what the Koran and other Islamic texts say it is. I am all for people flagrantly rejecting and disobeying "Allah and his messenger's" commandments. The more the better. But they would, for reasons I have given previously, do better not continuing to define themselves as "Muslims" (unless open apostasy might get them killed) and this site would do better not encouraging them in their intellectual dishonesty and/or self delusion.

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use all the fancy wording and clever arguments you want, but that's what it boils down to, and since the vast majority of members here don't agree with you, myself included, the debate is fuckin pointless.

Nobody has forced you to stick your oar in on this thread and I for one would prefer you to refrain from doing so if you have nothing thoughtful to contribute.

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But hey, if you wanna go on thinking that I stopped substantive debate with you because I was incapable of intelligently or adequately addressing your arguments, go for it.

Thank you, I will.

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Quit thinking I'm a bigot like you who pre-judges people on the basis of their religious or ethnic identity.

Your mendacious slipping in of "ethnic identity" is noted. It is of course quite natural and reasonable to assume that if someone classes THEMSELVES as belonging to a particular movement (religious or otherwise) with a particular core ideology - especially if they proudly display that movement's symbols, wear its uniform and indulge in its rituals - that they fully subscribe to the movement's aims and values. Thus is is perfectly reasonable to assume that a man who dresses like a Nazi, wears a Nazi swastika on his arm and goes to Nazi rallies subscribes lock, stock and barrel to the aims and values of Naziism. Likewise it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a woman who chooses to dress Islamically where it is not being forced on her harbors strong pro-sharia leanings and cannot seriously be described as being in any way "moderate" in her outlook.

No amount of bad language and childish namecalling by you is going to alter these facts. I do hope we have now heard the last of you on this thread.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #302 - September 25, 2009, 03:04 PM

Some contributors here could perhaps do with being reminded of the forum rules under the heading

Discussion of Islamic beliefs.

This is allowed, and indeed encouraged, subject to certain restrictions.

If you are going to state that something is Islamic you must be prepared to back your statements by quoting authorities and/or texts.

This surely applies equally to those who argue that a so-called "non-political" Islam should be accepted as having equal or more claim to the name "Islam" as the so-called "political" variety.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #303 - September 25, 2009, 04:00 PM

Quote from: DH on September 25, 2009, 02:41 PM
Nobody has forced you to stick your oar in on this thread

Stick my what in what?!?! Sicko.

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and this site would do better not encouraging them in their intellectual dishonesty and/or self delusion.

This may be difficult for you to wrap your head around, but I rather doubt the CEMB or this forum's admin give a shit as to what you think their goals should be. Starting out by attacking an admin probably doesn't make them any more open-minded to your suggestions (which run counter to the fundamental stated declarations of the council in the first place)-- just a tip. There's always FFI for ya.

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and I for one would prefer you to refrain from doing so if you have nothing thoughtful to contribute.

Too bad for you that I don't give a fuck about your preferences, then, huh?

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Thus is is perfectly reasonable to assume that a man who dresses like a Nazi, wears a Nazi swastika on his arm and goes to Nazi rallies subscribes lock, stock and barrel to the aims and values of Naziism.

Whoa, this whole discussion is getting way too intellectual for me. I can't follow these kinds of nuanced analogies.

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No amount of bad language and childish namecalling by you is going to alter these facts.

Did I hurt your feelings? I'm sorry. Here's a big make up hug from me to you:

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I do hope we have now heard the last of you on this thread.

Guess not

Hey, you should be thankful, it's looking like the forum's getting lean on people willing to debate with such an ideologically stubborn and narrow-minded opponent, so childish name calling and petty sniping from me might be as good as it gets for you. I know, depressing, ain't it?

But this is already starting to lose its entertainment value for me, so I'll leave ya alone now. Good luck with that "convincing the CEMB and its internet forum members they are wrong on their foundational beliefs" thing.

fuck you
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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #304 - September 25, 2009, 04:43 PM

Quote from: DH on September 25, 2009, 02:41 PM
Thus is is perfectly reasonable to assume that a man who dresses like a Nazi, wears a Nazi swastika on his arm and goes to Nazi rallies subscribes lock, stock and barrel to the aims and values of Naziism.

Instead of being so subtle you could just make the comparison explicit. Here, I'll do it for you:

'muslims are nazis'

Now that you've exhausted everything you had to say I'm sure this forum no longer serves any purpose for you...

OTOH,

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it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a woman who chooses to dress Islamically where it is not being forced on her harbors strong pro-sharia leanings and cannot seriously be described as being in any way "moderate" in her outlook.

If you think that is a reasonable assumption, it is reasonable to say you're too ignorant to talk about anything here anyway.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #305 - September 26, 2009, 10:02 AM

Quote from: panoptic on September 25, 2009, 04:43 PM
Instead of being so subtle you could just make the comparison explicit. Here, I'll do it for you:

'muslims are nazis'

No. Nazis are Nazis. Muslims are Muslims. It is reasonable to assume that people who belong to NeoNazi parties have a detailed knowledge of and support those parties' values and goals. So why is it not reasonable to assume the same of members of "The Party of Allah" (Hizbullah - Koran 58:22), particularly when they proudly wear its uniform, indulge in its rituals and attend its party rallies every Friday in mosque? Can you answer that?

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If you think that is a reasonable assumption, it is reasonable to say you're too ignorant to talk about anything here anyway.

Give one example of my "ignorance"

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #306 - September 26, 2009, 10:18 AM

Quote from: Q-Man on September 25, 2009, 04:00 PM
Starting out by attacking an admin probably doesn't make them any more open-minded to your suggestions

I have attacked nobody. I started out with the polite expression of an opinion. The only people who have done any "attacking" are you and your cronies.

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(which run counter to the fundamental stated declarations of the council in the first place)-- just a tip. There's always FFI for ya.

Well here are those "fundamental stated declarations":

Manifesto of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain

We, non-believers, atheists, and ex-Muslims, are establishing or joining the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain to insist that no one be pigeonholed as Muslims with culturally relative rights nor deemed to be represented by regressive Islamic organisations and 'Muslim community leaders'.

Those of us who have come forward with our names and photographs represent countless others who are unable or unwilling to do so because of the threats faced by those considered 'apostates' - punishable by death in countries under Islamic law.

By doing so, we are breaking the taboo that comes with renouncing Islam but also taking a stand for reason, universal rights and values, and secularism.

Whilst religion or the lack thereof is a private affair, the increasing intervention of and devastation caused by religion and PARTICULARLY ISLAM in contemporary society has necessitated our public renunciation and declaration. We represent a majority in Europe and a vast secular and humanist protest movement in countries like Iran.

Taking the lead from the Central Council of Ex-Muslims in Germany, we demand:

Universal rights and equal citizenship for all. We are opposed to cultural relativism and the tolerance of inhuman beliefs, discrimination and abuse in the name of respecting religion or culture.

Freedom to criticise religion. Prohibition of restrictions on unconditional freedom of criticism and expression using so-called religious 'sanctities'.
Freedom of religion and atheism.

Separation of religion from the state and legal and educational system.

Prohibition of religious customs, rules, ceremonies or activities that are incompatible with or infringe people's rights and freedoms.

Abolition of all restrictive and repressive cultural and religious customs which hinder and contradict woman's independence, free will and equality. Prohibition of segregation of sexes.

Prohibition of interference by any authority, family members or relatives, or official authorities in the private lives of women and men and their personal, emotional and sexual relationships and sexuality.

Protection of children from manipulation and abuse by religion and religious institutions.

Prohibition of any kind of financial, material or moral support by the state or state institutions to religion and religious activities and institutions.

Prohibition of all forms of religious intimidation and threats.

So which of the above do my suggestions "run counter" to?

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #307 - September 26, 2009, 10:27 AM

And this site does indeed recognise that there is a problem with the enforcement of sharia precepts at the level of the Muslim family:

Prohibition of interference by any authority, family members or relatives, or official authorities in the private lives of women and men and their personal, emotional and sexual relationships and sexuality.

To repeat. There is no reason to suppose that those who enforce sharia
rulings, eg hijab, on their own family members would not, given the chance, enforce them on everbody everywhere.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #308 - September 26, 2009, 11:18 AM

Quote from: DH on September 26, 2009, 10:02 AM
No. Nazis are Nazis. Muslims are Muslims. It is reasonable to assume that people who belong to NeoNazi parties have a detailed knowledge of and support those parties' values and goals. So why is it not reasonable to assume the same of members of "The Party of Allah" (Hizbullah - Koran 58:22), particularly when they proudly wear its uniform, indulge in its rituals and attend its party rallies every Friday in mosque? Can you answer that?

Because it's crass and nonsense.

Again, Islam is first and foremost a religion. Muslims practise their religion for spiritual purposes. They don't wear a 'uniform'. And attending prayers isn't like attending a political rally.

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Give one example of my "ignorance"

I already have

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it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a woman who chooses to dress Islamically where it is not being forced on her harbors strong pro-sharia leanings and cannot seriously be described as being in any way "moderate" in her outlook.

Most muslim women dress islamically. Whether they choose to or not, it doesn't say anything about their political ideology (if they have one).

The erroneous, underlying assumption being that expressions of religiosity are the same as political ones, or that one can infer a set of views from them.

Understanding and making the distinction between religion and politics is important in order to have a grasp of any of this. Failing to do so leads to the kind of distorted picture of it you have.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #309 - September 26, 2009, 01:46 PM

Quote from: DH on September 26, 2009, 10:18 AM
I have attacked nobody.

I seem to remember you having thrown some insults osmanthus's way, albeit of the mild, petit-bourgeois variety, but I can't be fucked to trudge through this thread to find them, so, ya know-- whatever.

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The only people who have done any "attacking" are you and your cronies.

I have cronies? Coool! Maybe I should get some henchmen too, and some beautiful villaness henchwomen, like a Bond villian, or Qaddafi. Oddjob, Jaws, Ms. Galore-- dispose of Hr. Head.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #310 - September 28, 2009, 10:42 AM

Quote from: Q-Man
I seem to remember you having thrown some insults osmanthus's way

Your memory is obviously playing tricks on you.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #311 - September 28, 2009, 11:18 AM

Quote from: panoptic
Islam is first and foremost a religion. Muslims practise their religion for spiritual purposes.

What are those "spiritual purposes" exactly?

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They [Muslims] don't wear a 'uniform'.

A uniform is a mode of attire that tells the world "I belong to such and such organization and subscribe to such and such beliefs". A woman dressed Islamically is announcing (or being compelled to announce) "I am a member of Islam...I unreservedly endorse the contents of the Koran". Hijab is therefore a uniform just as a Salvation Army uniform is a uniform. That Islamic dress is a uniform is confirmed by the Koran:

O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, THAT THEY MAY BE KNOWN (Koran 33:59)

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And attending prayers isn't like attending a political rally.

People attend political rallies to affirm their allegiance to the ideology of whatever political movement they belong to and solidarity with other members of the movement. How do the Islamic Friday prayer gatherings - and indeed the haj to Mecca - differ from a political rally exactly?

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Most muslim women dress islamically.

The "moderation" of most Muslim women's Islam must be seriously called into question then.

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Whether they choose to or not, it doesn't say anything about their political ideology

Choosing to dress Islamically can reasonably be taken as an endorsement of the political program outlined in the Koran ie the imposition of "divine law" on the entire world through jihad. An Islamic dresser can only be absolved of this charge due to:

> ignorance of Islam's inherently political nature

> being forced to dress Islamically against their will

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The erroneous, underlying assumption being that expressions of religiosity are the same as political ones, or that one can infer a set of views from them.

Not ALL expressions of religiosity are necessarily political. However, where a religion - eg Islam - has a political program (enforcing sharia) as an inherent component of its make-up then such "religiosity" is bound to be political - however much you may wish otherwise.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #312 - September 28, 2009, 03:41 PM

"Give one example of my "ignorance""

Most of what you say indicates you are ignorant on a mind-bogglingly colossal scale, but to save everyone the bother of trawling through your paranoid ranting, I would ask the contributors to this thread to join me in voicing their opinion thus:

Having examined the evidence, and in a bid to bury this dead thread, I the, undersigned, think that on the topic of Islam and seemingly world politics/history in general, DH is ignorant on a mind-bogglingly colossal scale and should FRO back to FFI,

Jack Torrance.

Ha Ha.
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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #313 - September 28, 2009, 03:49 PM

+1.

I can't be bothered with someone who quotes Bosnia and Kosovo as examples of "Islam's inherently political nature".

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #314 - September 29, 2009, 12:24 PM

Quote from: Cheetah
I can't be bothered with someone who quotes Bosnia and Kosovo as examples of "Islam's inherently political nature".

If you look back on your earlier posts you will find that it was actually YOU who first brought up Bosnia - citing it as an example of "apolitical" Islam. This, as I had pointed out earlier, is clearly absurd since the first chance they had at a democratic election the Bosniacs voted in Alija Izetbegovik whose Islam could under no circumstances be regarded as "apolitical". To remind you once again of haji Izetbegovik's infamous words: "There can be no peace or coexistence between the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies and political institutions. ... "

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #315 - September 29, 2009, 12:33 PM

Quote from: Jack Torrance
Most of what you say indicates you are ignorant on a mind-bogglingly colossal scale

So you keep repeating without recourse to any specific examples.

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but to save everyone the bother of trawling through your paranoid ranting, I would ask the contributors to this thread to join me in voicing their opinion thus:

Having examined the evidence, and in a bid to bury this dead thread, I the, undersigned, think that on the topic of Islam and seemingly world politics/history in general, DH is ignorant on a mind-bogglingly colossal scale and should FRO back to FFI

Only one signatory at this count. Anybody else care to add their name to JT's denunciation? In the meantime perhaps he could provide just one example of my "mind boggling" ignorance of Islam.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #316 - September 29, 2009, 03:50 PM

Everything you say is bollocks, I'm spoiled for choice, but I thought the comment that even the shape of the Koran is proof that Islam is nothing more than a violent cult takes the prize - I put it to you DH, that all books are that shape, even the pacifists bible 'Don't Join a Violent Cult, Become A Dick Head In Protest.' The incident you cited, where that poor fellow ended up jabbing his wife in the eye with his Marmaduke Pickthall translation - it was obviously a mistake, something we've all done on occasion, I'm sure, yes even you DH, and I'm sure, in your heart of hearts, you'll agree that it doesn't necessarily follow that Mohammed was a nazi.

And suddenly, the unbelievably tedious thread came to an abrupt halt, he hoped.

Ha Ha.
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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #317 - October 01, 2009, 09:56 AM

Quote from: Jack Torrance
Everything you say is bollocks

You must be able to quote one comment of mine that is particularly so.

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I'm spoiled for choice, but I thought the comment that even the shape of the Koran is proof that Islam is nothing more than a violent cult takes the prize - I put it to you DH, that all books are that shape, even the pacifists bible 'Don't Join a Violent Cult, Become A Dick Head In Protest.' The incident you cited, where that poor fellow ended up jabbing his wife in the eye with his Marmaduke Pickthall translation - it was obviously a mistake, something we've all done on occasion, I'm sure, yes even you DH, and I'm sure, in your heart of hearts, you'll agree that it doesn't necessarily follow that Mohammed was a nazi.

Your attempts at irony and parody are pretty lame. I'd stick to straight abuse and swearing if I were you.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #318 - October 01, 2009, 10:02 AM

I was quoting you verbatim, that explains a lot, you were drunk, obviously. You must be such a laugh to hang with.

Ha Ha.
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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #319 - October 01, 2009, 01:12 PM

Seeing as how this thread has degenerated into a pointless tit for tat mud slinging contest, this thread is now locked until further notice.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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