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 Topic: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?

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  • Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     OP - December 16, 2009, 05:17 PM
    OK, so there have been a few rare examples, but most of the work seems to be getting done by western scientists. In fact, quite often many muslims know very little about science except what they memorize from their books.

    What can be the reasons for this since intellectually we're all pretty much equally intelligent, muslim/non-muslim?

    I think the main factor is the lack of focus given to scientific education in muslim countries, most of the focus is instead given to religious studies. The culture seems to reinforce the idea that they need to learn about relligion foremost, and science is considered an after-thought if there's any time left after reading the koran. Perhaps this is why people are not as much interested in science and never take the time to learn things on their own..

    The second thing could be that their educational system teaches them only to memorize facts and figures without actually understanding the concepts behind them.

    And the third thing could be their decision to not teach anything which contradicts islam, e.g human evolution?

    I think this is an important issue, since if the majority of people become educated with science in Muslim nations, it will naturally lead to seperation of religion & state, secularism, and tolerance, I think.
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #1 - December 16, 2009, 05:30 PM
    The only significant Muslim scientist over the past century or so was Dr Abdus Salam...but since he was of the Ahmediyya sect, most 'mainstream' Muslims call him a kafir.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #2 - December 16, 2009, 05:31 PM
    Quote from: liberated on December 16, 2009, 05:17 PM
    What can be the reasons for this since intellectually we're all pretty much equally intelligent, muslim/non-muslim?


    All human beings are pretty much similar in most ways, including intelligence, but then humans are also greatly shaped by their culture, & religion is an integral part of the culture, but there are many other components as well.

    Religion isn't just what is written in books, but also how it moulds its followers to think & behave in real life situations.

    To me, Islam does seem to have far more a negative than a positive effect in the way it moulds its followers,compared to many other faiths.

    You might find this article interesting, its written by a Muslim guy who mentions some starkly unpleasant statistics relating to the Muslim world, & although he suggests Muslims keep pace with time with the Quran, I think Quran is the problem, rather than any solution.



    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #3 - December 16, 2009, 05:32 PM
    Quote from: atheist.pk on December 16, 2009, 05:30 PM
    The only significant Muslim scientist over the past century or so was Dr Abdus Salam...but since he was of the Ahmediyya sect, most 'mainstream' Muslims call him a kafir.


    What about Pervez Hoodhboy?
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #4 - December 16, 2009, 05:32 PM
    Top 500 universities in the world:
    http://www.online-universities.us/top500universities.htm

    Count how many are Muslim. I think you won't need many fingers.

    EDIT: Israel has one on that list.. and Muslims have ZERO.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #5 - December 16, 2009, 05:39 PM
    Quote from: atheist.pk on December 16, 2009, 05:30 PM
    The only significant Muslim scientist over the past century or so was Dr Abdus Salam...but since he was of the Ahmediyya sect, most 'mainstream' Muslims call him a kafir.


    I have heard about that too and how they removed the word 'muslim' from his gravestone and he was forced to live in exile. Assholes if you ask me.
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #6 - December 16, 2009, 05:41 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 16, 2009, 05:32 PM
    Top 500 universities in the world:
    http://www.online-universities.us/top500universities.htm

    Count how many are Muslim. I think you won't need many fingers.

    EDIT: Israel has one on that list.. and Muslims have ZERO.


    This further begs the question to why there are 0 muslim unis on there. I think fear of persecution which keeps most prominent non-muslim teachers from teaching there, could be one factor.

    Edit: Israel has about 3 unis in there actually. And I'm really surprised that even Turkey (which is a secular country) has no uni on that list..
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #7 - December 16, 2009, 05:48 PM
    Quote from: liberated on December 16, 2009, 05:41 PM
    This further begs the question to why there are 0 muslim unis on there. I think fear of persecution which keeps most prominent non-muslim teachers from teaching there, could be one factor.

    Edit: Israel has about 3 unis in there actually. And I'm really surprised that even Turkey (which is a secular country) has no uni on that list..


    Fear of persecution has little to do with it. Muslim countries are simply backwards and poor shite holes that put zero value and investment in science and education because we're too fucking busy debating whether a jinn stole your ipod.


    Look at this list:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Muslim_scientists
    ^ thats the ENTIRE muslim world's contribution

    Now compare it to this one SMALL European country:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedish_scientists

    Muslims = ~1.3 Billion
    Sweden = ~10 Million
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #8 - December 16, 2009, 05:51 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 16, 2009, 05:32 PM
    Top 500 universities in the world:
    [EDIT: Israel has one on that list.. and Muslims have ZERO.


    Israel has more than one, I counted a few, India I counted two, if I'm not mistaken, China half a dozen.

    Apart from the West, only Japan has universities in the top 100, then Singapore, South Korea & to a lesser extent China & India have in the 200+ slot.

    I also thought I counted that Muslims have ZERO, I recounted, it does seem 0.

    Islam for all its hoor filled jannah, is a very worldly faith, worldly success, power, booty etc mattered tremendously to it in its early days-they seemed to vindicate Islam as a worthwhile religion in the eyes of Muslims, so they also have this huge sense of humiliation when they see not only Jews & Christians, but also polytheists like Japanese, Chinese or Indians achieving more.

    The only areas where Muslims have a good lead over other parts of the world currently is in huge deposits of oil under many Muslim soils from the ME to Brunei, & a huge number of babies outproducing members of other faiths-none of which are very worthwhile achievements.

    I think worldly failure will force many Muslims to rethink their religion, even if nothing else does.

    There are Latin American nations like Mexico, Brazil & Argentina on that list, so much of the world is well represented.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #9 - December 16, 2009, 05:54 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 16, 2009, 05:48 PM
    Fear of persecution has little to do with it. Muslim countries are simply backwards and poor shite holes that put zero value and investment in science and education because we're too fucking busy debating whether a jinn stole your ipod.


    Sad but true  Cry Cheesy.
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #10 - December 16, 2009, 05:56 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on December 16, 2009, 05:51 PM


    I think worldly failure will force many Muslims to rethink their religion, even if nothing else does.



    Why would worldly failure cause muslims, who only care about otherworldly rewards, to rethink their religion?
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #11 - December 16, 2009, 06:04 PM
    Religion is important.. it plays a key part in shaping a societies cultural and political attitudes. Any society that places great emphasis on religion simply almost always has an inverse relationship to it's investment in education and science. So religion is bad as it is, but when you add a religion as domineering as Islam to the mix it makes it 10 times worse.

    Muslim countries are dirt poor and hence cannot help but contribute very little to science research and good universities. But also, countries that are rich, like Saudi and Dubai, instead spend their money on skyscrapers and funding Hamas when they easily could build some of the most state of the art universities if they had the political and intellectual will. But they don't have that will because the government has vested interests in satisfying religious groups who are far more powerful than the tiny intellectual class.

    It really boils down to a failure of culture and innovative thinking that is very much rooted in religious attitudes.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #12 - December 16, 2009, 06:08 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 16, 2009, 05:48 PM
    Fear of persecution has little to do with it. Muslim countries are simply backwards and poor shite holes that put zero value and investment in science and education because we're too fucking busy debating whether a jinn stole your ipod.


    Look at this list:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Muslim_scientists
    ^ thats the ENTIRE muslim world's contribution

    Now compare it to this one SMALL European country:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedish_scientists

    Muslims = ~1.3 Billion
    Sweden = ~10 Million



    WOW. Sweden, a country with 10 million produced more scientists than all of the muslim world combined, thats just wow!

    I hate this term to death, but I will say it anyway.

    EPIC FAIL to the Muslim world.
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #13 - December 16, 2009, 06:13 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on December 16, 2009, 06:08 PM
    WOW. Sweden, a country with 10 million produced more scientists than all of the muslim world combined, thats just wow!

    I hate this term to death, but I will say it anyway.

    EPIC FAIL to the Muslim world.


    Forget Sweden, lets look at a country Muslims love hating:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israelis#Academic_figures

    Israel = ~8 million
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #14 - December 16, 2009, 06:16 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on December 16, 2009, 05:56 PM
    Why would worldly failure cause muslims, who only care about otherworldly rewards, to rethink their religion?


    Well, I'm not sure, but I think that although we can't verify the afterlife, we can verify this life, if a religion is supplying a good formula for leading this life, people will buy it.

    Conversely, if its failing to get things right in this life in every which way, people will not trust its vision of the afterlife.

    Islam fails in this life on most counts-not only science, but women's rights, literacy, life expectancy, wealth creation,slavery,peaceful societies,even strong families if you see the divorce epidemic in the oil rich gulf nations.

    So the oppression of women might make many a feminist minded Muslimah quit the faith after failing to reconcile her belief about gender equality with Islam, a scientifically minded Muslim would be turned off by the lack of intellectual advances in Islamic nations, a person who's into cultural supremacy will be turned off when they see Pakistanis watch Indian movies, the Muslim world watch Hollywood, Japanese anime & Disney but no Islamic equivalents etc.

    Sure, at first the Muslimah will try her best to reconcile her feminism with Islam, trying to convince herself that the oppression of women is "culture" rather than sanctioned by the Quran & hadiths, the scientifically minded Muslim will try
    to brainwash himself into believing that Islam actually created the modern scientific world, but they only fell back due to violent Western imperialism etc, etc-but I think intellectual honesty will make many Muslims re examine their faith & ultimately quit it.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #15 - December 16, 2009, 06:18 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 16, 2009, 06:04 PM
    Religion is important.. it plays a key part in shaping a societies cultural and political attitudes. Any society that places great emphasis on religion simply almost always has an inverse relationship to it's investment in education and science. So religion is bad as it is, but when you add a religion as domineering as Islam to the mix it makes it 10 times worse.

    Muslim countries are dirt poor and hence cannot help but contribute very little to science research and good universities. But also, countries that are rich, like Saudi and Dubai, instead spend their money on skyscrapers and funding Hamas when they easily could build some of the most state of the art universities if they had the political and intellectual will. But they don't have that will because the government has vested interests in satisfying religious groups who are far more powerful than the tiny intellectual class.

    It really boils down to a failure of culture and innovative thinking that is very much rooted in religious attitudes.


    This does make me sad. Imagine if they instead started to focus on scientific innovation and education... what sort of change that would bring, not just in the muslim nations but in the entire world. Sad  :'(


    Quote
    Look at this list:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Muslim_scientists
    ^ thats the ENTIRE muslim world's contribution

    Now compare it to this one SMALL European country:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedish_scientists


    I do have to say that the swedish scientists article shows the scientists starting from the 17th century, while the muslim scientists are only shown from the 19th century. Or is it because there were no notable muslim scientists in the 17th and 18th centuries? Cheesy
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #16 - December 16, 2009, 06:26 PM
    Quote from: liberated on December 16, 2009, 06:18 PM
    . Or is it because there were no notable muslim scientists in the 17th and 18th centuries? Cheesy


    Exactly.

    In fact, outside of Europe no other part of the world contributed shit to science during that period. Not the Chinese, not the Indian. No one. But post-independence (1940s onwards) other nations (india and china) quickly caught up and are rapidly closing that gap with the west. Muslims didn't, and aren't even trying.


    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #17 - December 16, 2009, 06:33 PM
    I think one reason they're not even trying is that the political leaders think that if they promote science & education, it will 'modernize' the youth and eventually have the country secularized, which is probably true. So they'd rather keep the country scientifically backwards than to let it get with the times.

    I am surprised though that Turkey has not produced any notable scientists either, isn't Turkey secular & modern?
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #18 - December 16, 2009, 06:39 PM
    Quote from: liberated on December 16, 2009, 06:33 PM
    I think one reason they're not even trying is that the political leaders think that if they promote science & education, it will 'modernize' the youth and eventually have the country secularized, which is probably true. So they'd rather keep the country scientifically backwards than to let it get with the times.

    I am surprised though that Turkey has not produced any notable scientists either, isn't Turkey secular & modern?



    That's where your wrong. If anything, the political leaders of Muslim nations are the best part of those countries. Even the dictators are not that bad as far as attitudes towards secularism goes.  The problem is the culture and attitudes among the people. The political leaders can only do what their people and the various groups in their country pressure them to. If a government is not investing in education it shows they are both poor and lack the political will to improve. And politcal will inevitably come from the various interest groups in a country.

    I don't know enough about Turkey to say anything on that issue honestly.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #19 - December 16, 2009, 06:44 PM
    The problem is definitely the culture. In a culture where critical thinking is really frowned upon (you don't think for yourselves, you consult scholars), how can great minds flourish?
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #20 - December 16, 2009, 06:46 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 16, 2009, 06:39 PM
    That's where your wrong. If anything, the political leaders of Muslim nations are the best part of those countries. Even the dictators are not that bad as far as attitudes towards secularism goes.  The problem is the culture and attitudes among the people. The political leaders can only do what their people and the various groups in their country pressure them to. If a government is not investing in education it shows they are both poor and lack the political will to improve. And politcal will inevitably come from the various interest groups in a country.

    I don't know enough about Turkey to say anything on that issue honestly.


    I guess it depends from nation to nation. I suppose you might be correct in countries like Pakistan & Bangladesh, though in countries like Saudi arabia where the government itself is very religious and has several rules like women not being allowed to leave the country without a guardian, among others, i think it is the political leaders who decide against the focus on modernizing the country.
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #21 - December 16, 2009, 06:48 PM
    Muslim World, still hasn't hit rock bottom yet, they will soon, the time is coming, and they will realize how far behind from the rest of the world they have become


    Also you guys forget one thing. Most of these Muslims countries are economically weak. Except for some like UAE, SA and Iran
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #22 - December 16, 2009, 06:53 PM
    Quote
    Muslim World, still hasn't hit rock bottom yet, they will soon, the time is coming, and they will realize how far behind from the rest of the world they have become


    Lol, if that happens, sadly I think it will only lead to them thinking they're being punished for getting influenced by western culture, or they aren't following the book literally enough, or some bullshit like that. And they'll end up becoming more religious  Huh?. Unless some decisive action is taken by the leaders to wake their people up. I guess it will be a  gradual process of change, perhaps 100/200 years?
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #23 - December 16, 2009, 06:54 PM
    Quote from: _truth_ on December 16, 2009, 06:48 PM
    Muslim World, still hasn't hit rock bottom yet, they will soon, the time is coming, and they will realize how far behind from the rest of the world they have become


    Also you guys forget one thing. Most of these Muslims countries are economically weak. Except for some like UAE, SA and Iran


    Economic weakness often cannot be helped.. but this level of poverty across the ENTIRE muslim world doesn't make sense. And just because you are poor doesn't mean you are doomed to be. India is still a third world countr.. but look at it's investment in science and education, they produce lots of scientists and engineers and have some of the top univerities on earth. Look at South Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, Brazil, etc. These were some of the poorest countries on earth at a point, and they picked themselves up and some have reached first world status while others are rapidly improving. A nations economic factors are often related to its own blessings and lack thereof, but other times it's merely a symptom and reflection of deeper problems.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #24 - December 16, 2009, 07:03 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on December 16, 2009, 06:54 PM
    A nations economic factors are often related to its own blessings and lack thereof, but other times it's merely a symptom and reflection of deeper problems.


    I hope the Bangladeshi people can learn a thing or two from India and realize that even if the country is really poor, the fate of Bangladesh people belongs to the youth and how well they are educated and they too can create brilliant Bangladeshi Scientists who can help the country

    Kaff remember that guy with Micro Lending who won the Nobel Peace Prize? We need a few more of him from Bangladesh
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #25 - December 16, 2009, 07:06 PM
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Yunus

    Yeah, he's done really great work.  Afro
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #26 - December 16, 2009, 07:26 PM
    yep, we need more of him
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #27 - December 16, 2009, 11:08 PM
    I wouldn't call it western given that at the latest round table discussion on BBC one of the nobel laureates noted that Europe used to be the centre of science, alot of it has now shifted to the US but Japan, Indian and China are now rising up to match the dominance.

    I think the great irony is that as ones sees a transition to Asia, once again Muslims are going to be left out in the cold as the torch of progress skips the Islamic world and goes to yet another group of kuffir countries.

    I find it funny though that Muslim countries are trying by spending billions on new institutions but they ignore the fact that unless you have freedom and you encourage individual rather the backwards collectivist tribalism that still exists in the Muslim world, you're going to keep failing to keep up with the rest of the world. The killing of GLBT is a declaration by the Muslim world: "don't step out of line, don't be different, don't think different, don't be proud of your difference" etc.
    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #28 - December 17, 2009, 01:52 AM
    Quote from: liberated on December 16, 2009, 06:53 PM
    Lol, if that happens, sadly I think it will only lead to them thinking they're being punished for getting influenced by western culture, or they aren't following the book literally enough, or some bullshit like that. And they'll end up becoming more religious  Huh?. Unless some decisive action is taken by the leaders to wake their people up. I guess it will be a  gradual process of change, perhaps 100/200 years?

    I don't want to generalise. It IS happening. They ALREADY think they're being punished, by not following the Religion strictly. That's why we hear some of the 'solutions' to improve the state of some Muslim countries, is to return and become more devout to Religion. This kind of thinking has and is already taking place.
    For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who refuse to understand, no explanation is possible.
  • Re: Why are most prominent scientists western rather than muslim?
     Reply #29 - December 17, 2009, 02:38 AM
    "Islam is the solution"

    Even as a Muslim I lol'd at that.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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