How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?

12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
OP - December 16, 2009, 07:02 PM

What's your most educated guess for how long it'll take before most muslim nations across the world become secular, promote tolerance for other religions, have a high literacy rate and educated people, and where religion becomes a secondary issue like most of the developed nations of the day?
- _truth_
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #1 - December 16, 2009, 07:20 PM

Well the US installed democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. Lets see how those countries deal with it first. If their democracy succeeds then perhaps they can influence other neighboring countries with some worldwide pressure. But this has to be like at least 70-80 years into the future

this feature is kool!
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #2 - December 16, 2009, 07:22 PM

Depends on the individual country really. I doubt progress in Malyasia will be the same as in Saudi Arabia.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- Rashna
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #3 - December 16, 2009, 07:51 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 16, 2009, 07:22 PM
Depends on the individual country really. I doubt progress in Malyasia will be the same as in Saudi Arabia.

Malaysia was only 50% Muslim at the time of its independence from the British, the rest were Indians & Chinese, who were economically better off, especially the Chinese, it was the Chinese hard work & intellect which kept the place running.

However, as happens often with Muslims, the Malays have outproduced the Indians & Chinese, now they constitute 60% of the population. Legal rules like banning conversion out of Islam, insisting that anyone marrying a Muslim converts to Islam have added to Muslim numbers.

Also, like in many Muslim nations cut off from the Islamic heartland via geographical distance, people were only nominally Muslim earlier, but followed a syncretic religion. This contributed to more tolerance & gender equality.

Malaysia now has very discriminatory rules which however only apply for Muslim women, Marina Mahathir has described the situation as apartheid, Muslims leaving Islam are subject to great torture, as was the case of one Revathi Masoosai, who converted from Islam to Hinduism, Malay authorities seized her baby girl & put her in a "re education" camp to re convert her to Islam, likewise a Malay Muslim's conversion to Christianity was also not recognized by the courts.

Malaysia has now instituted Shariah laws like caning for drunkenness

Malay leaders teach that women must accept polygamy which will lower divorces & solve marital problems.

Because of these discriminations & double standards, many Malay Chinese & Indians, who contributed so much more to the economy & education, have left for neighbouring Singapore, which grants all its citizens equal rights.

If Malaysia becomes more Muslim & Malay birthrates & laws will cause it to become more Muslim, & if it has increasingly Islamic laws like caning & polygamy,it won't have a very rosy future.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #4 - December 16, 2009, 09:15 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 16, 2009, 07:22 PM
Depends on the individual country really. I doubt progress in Malyasia will be the same as in Saudi Arabia.

Lets say about 80% of countries?
- Mixu Paatelainen
- Ex-Muslim
- Rudeboy
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #5 - December 16, 2009, 09:21 PM

I reckon about a hundred years till the Muslim equivelant of the enlightenment.

Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
- Infidel
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #6 - December 16, 2009, 10:12 PM

I'd say something along the lines of 50-70 years. Or at least I hope it doesn't last so long.

"In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #7 - December 16, 2009, 11:15 PM

Quote from: _truth_ on December 16, 2009, 07:20 PM
Well the US installed democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. Lets see how those countries deal with it first. If their democracy succeeds then perhaps they can influence other neighboring countries with some worldwide pressure. But this has to be like at least 70-80 years into the future

this feature is kool!

Afghanistan has been epic fail, within the constitution Afghanistan is declared as a Islamic State and Islam as the official religion; so guess what that means.

The US just didn't have the stomach to force through secularism - but then again, until Pakistan becomes secular and completely removes every part of Sharia from the Pakistani legal system, it won't matter what Afghanistan does, it will always get invaded by the stupidity from Pakistan.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #8 - December 17, 2009, 12:39 AM

I think some parts of the Islamic world are FFE (fucked for eternity). Afghanistan and Somalia being at the bottom. I think Iran is already secularising and will eventually reach a critical point soon enough. Thats assuming Mr Dipshitdinijad doesn't cause a nuclear holocaust.

I think lots of countries, like Bangladesh and Pakistan, will secularize much faster as soon as Saudi Arabia collapses. At the end of the day any ideological movement needs money and without it the playing field will be evened for liberals.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #9 - December 17, 2009, 12:43 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on December 16, 2009, 11:15 PM
Afghanistan has been epic fail, within the constitution Afghanistan is declared as a Islamic State and Islam as the official religion; so guess what that means.

The US just didn't have the stomach to force through secularism - but then again, until Pakistan becomes secular and completely removes every part of Sharia from the Pakistani legal system, it won't matter what Afghanistan does, it will always get invaded by the stupidity from Pakistan.

Step by step, you cannot simply secularise a primitive backwater like Afghanistan overnight. First you need stability. The leaders the US is working with over there are all religious cunts. Only the Afghans will secularise, no one can impose it on them

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #10 - December 17, 2009, 12:45 AM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 17, 2009, 12:39 AM

I think lots of countries, like Bangladesh and Pakistan, will secularize much faster as soon as Saudi Arabia collapses. At the end of the day any ideological movement needs money and without it the playing field will be evened for liberals.

Agreed. The key to that is lessening our dependence on oil. Saudi Arabia and other countries are behind much of this.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- Ibn Saba
- I doubt. I doubt my doubt. Doubt itself is uncertain! I love, but who is it for whom I sigh? Not muslim, yet not heathen, who am I?
- Member
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #11 - December 17, 2009, 01:07 AM

Quote from: liberated on December 16, 2009, 07:02 PM
What's your most educated guess for how long it'll take before most muslim nations across the world become secular, promote tolerance for other religions, have a high literacy rate and educated people, and where religion becomes a secondary issue like most of the developed nations of the day?

I think the only way for Muslim countries to become more secular, is through force. Getting rid of those Jihadi's and radicals who silence anyone opposing Shariah laws, and supporting democracy, and Westernisation. In a lot of those countries, extremists have a lot of influential. They are not willing to debate, and discuss in an intellectual manner. Which means the only way to deal with them, is by using force. After all, the only way they rose to prominence was by force, intimidation and the like.

For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who refuse to understand, no explanation is possible.
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #12 - December 17, 2009, 01:32 AM

Quote from: ras111 on December 17, 2009, 12:43 AM
Step by step, you cannot simply secularise a primitive backwater like Afghanistan overnight. First you need stability. The leaders the US is working with over there are all religious cunts. Only the Afghans will secularise, no one can impose it on them.

But you can't stabilise it until you address the issue of religion - religion is a key component to the war; a religion that never went through a modernisation which Christianity and Judaism had to go through. But all of this comes back to Saudi Arabia - the asshole of the Islamic world; the only saving grace for Islam would be a return for Turkey to take a stronger leadership role in the Islamic world to supplant Saudi Arabia and the Saudi doctrine.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- Heyjustlooking
- Ex-Muslim
- You know what time it is
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #13 - December 17, 2009, 02:34 AM

It's almost inevitable that most do within the next 100 or so years, but, I hope that this current volatile state of the afghan war calms down and that the Taliban resistance there is finally eliminated in order to allow progress in the country. Saudi as mentioned is the country that all Islamic countries are trying to emulate and unless this wahabbi doctrine which is being propagated all over the world by extremist and their shitty government then the Islamic world in general will be stuck for a while.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
- _truth_
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #14 - December 17, 2009, 03:39 AM

Bangladesh is already very secularized, I mean not at the same level as the west, but compared to most Islamic states, its a lot secular
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #15 - December 17, 2009, 03:54 AM

Quote from: _truth_ on December 17, 2009, 03:39 AM
Bangladesh is already very secularized, I mean not at the same level as the west, but compared to most Islamic states, its a lot secular.

But it is still riddled with backwards tribalism with the thin veneer of Islam as justification.

When honour and tribalism are thrown out the window, then there will be a march towards true secularity.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- Tommy
- Let me feel your butt
- Ex-Muslim
- The Ass Patter
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #16 - December 17, 2009, 04:01 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on December 17, 2009, 03:54 AM
But it is still riddled with backwards tribalism with the thin veneer of Islam as justification.

When honour and tribalism are thrown out the window, then there will be a march towards true secularity.

When was the last time Bangladesh approved of Honor killings? The answer is never.

When was the last time a honor killing took place in Bangladesh?

Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #17 - December 17, 2009, 04:07 AM

Quote from: Tommy on December 17, 2009, 04:01 AM
When was the last time Bangladesh approved of Honor killings? The answer is never.

When was the last time a honor killing took place in Bangladesh?

Who said anything about approval or disapproval of honour killings?

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #18 - December 17, 2009, 04:15 AM

Bangladesh had literally zero tribalism. Kawai, why not just stick to topics you know about? Don't speak without knowledge - that's what Muslims do.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #19 - December 17, 2009, 04:28 AM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 17, 2009, 04:15 AM
Bangladesh had literally zero tribalism. Kawai, why not just stick to topics you know about? Don't speak without knowledge - that's what Muslims do.

http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

Quote
Such crimes are also rife in Bangladesh, formerly East Pakistan, where some 2,200 women are disfigured every year in acid attacks by jealous or estranged men. (Ellen Goodman, "How Long Before We Take the Honor out of Killing?," The Washington Post [in the Guardian Weekly, April 6-12, 2000.)

Then again, according to you all those 2,200 people just tripped over and fell face first into a bowl of acid.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #20 - December 17, 2009, 04:59 AM

Do you even know what tribalism is? Look it up before you make a fool of yourself again.

Once again, try not to speak without knowledge.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #21 - December 17, 2009, 05:07 AM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 17, 2009, 04:59 AM
Do you even know what tribalism is? Look it up before you make a fool of yourself again.

Once again, try not to speak without knowledge.

Your behaviour and ganging up with Tommy speaks more about your hatred of people you disagree with - by chance have you actually left Islam or are you one of those who call themselves an 'ex-Muslim' to make yourself sound rebellious but you're an obedient little slave attending mosque each week.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #22 - December 17, 2009, 05:09 AM

What is tribalism? Answer the fucking question and stop dropping red herrings and ethnic baiting.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #23 - December 17, 2009, 05:14 AM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 17, 2009, 05:09 AM
What is tribalism? Answer the fucking question and stop dropping red herrings and ethnic baiting.

Quote
tribalism |ˈtrībəˌlizəm|
noun
the state or fact of being organized in a tribe or tribes : black tribalism became the excuse for creating ethnic homelands.
? chiefly derogatory the behavior and attitudes that stem from strong loyalty to one's own tribe or social group : an ethnic group demanding the paraphernalia of campus tribalism.

Oh, and labelling someone you disagree with a racist - why aren't I surprised.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #24 - December 17, 2009, 05:18 AM

Stop playing the fucking victim and labelling us as "muslims" and stick to the topic.

So you stated bangladesh is rife with tribalism, back up your point. Go ahead. By the way, honor killing are not tribalism. Two wholly different things.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- allat
- Euphoria
- Administrator
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #25 - December 17, 2009, 05:31 AM

kaiwai, why don't you cool down a bit, now?

Most of the posters here are as fed up with Islam as you. Throwing ethnic slurs at them or questioning their *lack of faith* in Islam is not the way to go unless you want to destroy your own credibility and alienate yourself completely. Stick to the points and facts of the debate and chillax on the personal attacks.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
- Baal
- Arab Slave Overlord
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #26 - December 17, 2009, 05:33 AM

Quote from: _truth_ on December 16, 2009, 07:20 PM
Well the US installed democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. Lets see how those countries deal with it first. If their democracy succeeds then perhaps they can influence other neighboring countries with some worldwide pressure. But this has to be like at least 70-80 years into the future

this feature is kool!

They did not install Democracy. Democracy pre-supposes everyone agrees to the system. And that has to happen before the votes are cast. This is not the case in those countries. The US also made the koran enshrined in the constitution of those countries when the koran was not enshrined before.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
- Baal
- Arab Slave Overlord
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #27 - December 17, 2009, 05:38 AM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 17, 2009, 04:15 AM
Bangladesh had literally zero tribalism. Kawai, why not just stick to topics you know about? Don't speak without knowledge - that's what Muslims do.

Technically, Egypt is not supposed to have tribalism in the large cities. And it is an agrarian society, so even its tribes are the agrarian land-based type. But their religion is highly tribal. And it causes people to act and behave in tribal ways (small) not suitable to the requirements of their agrarian/industrial environment (large).

This behavior of course, is an imbalance. Which I hope will be fixed soon One way or another.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
- Baal
- Arab Slave Overlord
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #28 - December 17, 2009, 05:42 AM

Quote from: Tommy on December 17, 2009, 04:01 AM
When was the last time Bangladesh approved of Honor killings? The answer is never.

When was the last time a honor killing took place in Bangladesh?

I am not sure what you are asking Tommy. Here is a report on honor killing by the national geographics:

Quote
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html
Hundreds, if not thousands, of women are murdered by their families each year in the name of family "honor." It's difficult to get precise numbers on the phenomenon of honor killing; the murders frequently go unreported, the perpetrators unpunished, and the concept of family honor justifies the act in the eyes of some societies.

Most honor killings occur in countries where the concept of women as a vessel of the family reputation predominates, said Marsha Freemen, director of International Women's Rights Action Watch at the Hubert Humphrey Institute of Public Affairs at the University of Minnesota.

Reports submitted to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights show that honor killings have occurred in Bangladesh, Great Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, and Uganda. In countries not submitting reports to the UN, the practice was condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban government in Afghanistan, and has been reported in Iraq and Iran

This is a picture of some women in Bangaladesh:

And this one is a bit generalizing for punishment. Tommy, can you list what are the actual punishment for so-called honor killers? acid attackers?
Quote
http://www.actnow.com.au/Issues/Honour_killings.aspx
Why aren?t women protected?

Whilst honour killings violate various rights outlined by the Declaration of Human Rights, legal systems in the countries where most honour killings occur allow for the practice to continue with no or minimal repercussions. These countries include Jordan, West Bank and Palestine. Other areas where the law makes some form of allowance are Argentina, Brazil, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Lebanon, Morocco, Peru, Syria, Turkey and Venezuela.

Whilst some countries make allowances for men who have killed close female relatives in the name of honour, others prescribe lighter sentences for such an act, with average sentences ranging from three months to a year. Many families avoid longer sentences by giving the task of murder to under-age men. Patriarchal legal structures make things hard for women who want to prosecute. For example, in Palestine, a woman?s case for rape is valid only if she is accompanied by an immediate male family member.

Here is a law in 2009 to address acid attacks:
Quote
http://blog.taragana.com/law/2009/11/04/demand-for-separate-law-to-curb-honour-killings-15898/
Dhaka firms up law to curb acid attacks on women

November 3rd, 2009 DHAKA - A law to curb violence against women in the form of acid being thrown at them has been approved in Bangladesh, which has witnessed 132 incidents of this kind since January. The legislation, Acid Control (Amendment) Bill, 2009, aims to establish "strict government control on the use of acid materials and curb acid related crimes", it was announced Monday after approval was given by the cabinet chaired by Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina.

Here is what FFI has on the subject:
Quote
http://www1.faithfreedom.org/content/%E2%80%9Chonor-killing%E2%80%9D-it-islamic
Bangladesh though a Muslim majority country?regular pattern of honor killings never happened as of today. But it is not unknown or impossible to record some stray incidences in Bangladeshi rural Muslim family (only) in which girl was poisoned by family members, or asked to commit suicide after being impregnated by unwed sexual intercourse. However, this same kind of case history was never heard, or recorded in the non-Muslim family of Bangladesh.

EDIT: Sorry for adding bits to the post as I find them.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: How long will it be before Muslim nations become secular & tolerant?
Reply #29 - December 17, 2009, 05:57 AM

Quote from: Baal on December 17, 2009, 05:38 AM
Technically, Egypt is not supposed to have tribalism in the large cities. And it is an agrarian society, so even its tribes are the agrarian land-based type. But their religion is highly tribal. And it causes people to act and behave in tribal ways (small) not suitable to the requirements of their agrarian/industrial environment (large).

Bangladesh really does not have any significant tribalism at all. Even the Islam in the villages is not tribal in nature. Even religious relations between Muslims and Hindus, while nowhere near perfect, are rarely ever tribal. In my mom's native village Hindus and Muslims get along very well. It's an agrarian village based society at the core. Bangladesh is a largely ethnically homogenous society.

Kawai just seems like throwing words around without knowing what they mean and then damning us as "muslims" when we question his total ignorance. He argues for the sake of arguing without having any knowledge to back it up. Why does a guy who does not care or know jackshit about a insignificant country like Bangladesh need to have a such a passionate opinion about it when it's obvious he's totally out of his depth?

It's just frustrating when he does shit like that, hence why I called him out.

EDIT: Acid attacks, as horrible as they are, are simply not honor killings or even related. And as much as Islam encourages misogony such an act has no real religious roots either. Acid attacks on women happen all over asia.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »