Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


New Britain
Yesterday at 11:13 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
Yesterday at 08:00 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
February 13, 2025, 10:07 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
February 13, 2025, 08:20 PM

German nationalist party ...
February 13, 2025, 01:15 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
February 13, 2025, 01:08 PM

Russia invades Ukraine
February 13, 2025, 11:01 AM

Islam and Science Fiction
February 11, 2025, 11:57 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
February 08, 2025, 01:38 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
February 06, 2025, 03:13 PM

Gaza assault
February 05, 2025, 10:04 AM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
February 03, 2025, 09:25 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt

 (Read 2996 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt
     OP - December 17, 2009, 04:53 PM



    Just putting some coalesced thoughts down here.

    +++++

    * The idea of Ummah actually invites bigotry towards Muslims because it sends bigotry outwards. If all Muslims are one single spiritual body, and an attack on Islam is an attack on all Muslims - then this logic can be extended easily to say that an attack by one Muslim on non Muslims is an attack by all Muslims - leaving believers open to claims of collective culpability and collective responsibility for things like terrorist attacks. After all, Ummah-ism asserts collective responsibility by the kuffar world in its dealings with Islam, and the moral and spiritual and reductive inter-connectedness of Islam and its adherents. Ummah-ism actually invites this upon Muslims - and negates the individuated lives of Muslims, and opens dialogue with the most regressive of human impulses in the 'infidel' world.


    * Muslims assert themselves that Islam is deterministic, because through dawah, and through the collective evangelical impulse, and visibly through dawah stories (just watch those videos), they assert that Islam, and the Quran, directly determines behaviour, for the better. But the flip side of this, then, is that when Muslims carry out acts of violence in the name of the religion and abided by the Quran, it is also deterministic. In other words, if Islam is deterministic in changing lives supposedly for the better (because Islam is a source-code for a Muslim and a converts higher superior behaviour and life, which every believing Muslim knows to be true in their hearts) then it is also deterministic when acts of violence or intolerance are carried out by the letter of the Quran. On the one hand, Islam asserts the determinism of its power, until something bad is ascribed to it, in which case the Muslims were simply 'misunderstanding' Islam, or were in some way being false, or rogue. But that is not sustainable in the modern world. The contradiction is too great.

    +++++

    Islam contains its own 'guilt' because it asserts that it contains its own 'goodness'. In its practical expression of 'ummah-ism' it takes that a step further spiritually and ideologically, and actually invites prejudice onto Muslims because it asserts the lack of individuation and projects ideas of collective responsibility and guilt itself.

    Islam really does fuck Muslims up.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt
     Reply #1 - December 17, 2009, 05:11 PM


    Does that make sense to you guys?

    The ideology, precepts and dogmatics of Islam in both a spiritual communal sense, in a political sense, and in an 'identity politics' sense, contains seeds of darkness that actually throw back some troublesome ideas onto Muslims, because they assert these ideas about collectivity, determinism and culpability about the world as it is and about human society in general.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt
     Reply #2 - December 17, 2009, 05:19 PM

    It does make sense that tribalism on one side invites its mirror image from among the out group. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt
     Reply #3 - December 17, 2009, 05:22 PM

    Does that make sense to you guys?

    The ideology, precepts and dogmatics of Islam in both a spiritual communal sense, in a political sense, and in an 'identity politics' sense, contains seeds of darkness that actually throw back some troublesome ideas onto Muslims, because they assert these ideas about collectivity, determinism and culpability about the world as it is and about human society in general.


    Absolutely, but, then again, the overwhelming majority of your posts do tend to make sense to me.

    fuck you
  • Re: Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt
     Reply #4 - December 17, 2009, 05:23 PM


    What about the determinism thing?

    The idea that a religion that asserts it acts as 'DNA' and 'source code' for good actions, elevated spirit and behaviour, that adherence to it can determine the character and actions of an individual, has a real problem explaining why it is not also deterministic in making individuals act 'badly' when 'source code' explains patterns of intolerance, for example, or violent action.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt
     Reply #5 - December 17, 2009, 05:25 PM

    Yes, that makes sense too.  Its a question all religions tend to answer by handing God the credit for anything good, and mankind the blame for anything bad. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt
     Reply #6 - December 17, 2009, 05:26 PM

    Cheers guys.

    I've just been musing on how religion, and in an exaggerated scale, Islam and Islamic identity politics, has a tendency to place Muslims in contexts that actually leaves them open to prejudices, because it projects prejudice itself, and makes negative demands on individual Muslims to cede identity and voice to the collective.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt
     Reply #7 - December 17, 2009, 05:28 PM

    If all Muslims are one single spiritual body, and an attack on Islam is an attack on all Muslims - then this logic can be extended easily to say that an attack by one Muslim on non Muslims is an attack by all Muslims - leaving believers open to claims of collective culpability and collective responsibility for things like terrorist attacks.


    Well, the same could be said for any collective identity. Then again, there's probably no national/religious/ethnic etc. group without prejudice against them. And the 'Ummah' (nation that never existed) happens to be one of the largest.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt
     Reply #8 - December 17, 2009, 05:29 PM

    Yes, its a fair point, and then there's the whole thing about not criticising fellow muslims in front of the kaffir, which gives bigots on the other side an excuse to say that moderate muslims never condemn extremists.  

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt
     Reply #9 - December 17, 2009, 05:36 PM

    The problem with Islam is how tightly it binds personal belief with tribal loyalties. I think Islam really does master this compared any other collectivist ideas. Any sort of criticism against any aspect of Islam is immediately viewed a direct attack on all Muslims and all Islam. This behavior really showed its true face during the Danish cartoon issue.

    Often lots of Muslims see themselves as a religious collective, and they superimpose the same ideas upon the 'other'. Hence the Danish cartoons ceased to be one newspaper trying to make a political point, but instead became the "Danes" and "Christendom" (a concept only Muslims still believe in!) attacking all of Islam. Which is why Muslims are so quick to revert to conspiracy theories and plots by a joint and singleminded "zionist-crusader" entity - they are simply projecting their own concept of religious collective onto foreigners. They still cannot see the secular and complex self-interest based mechanics that drive the world and instead try to see the others as being some sort of 'kafir' collective working in unision.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt
     Reply #10 - December 17, 2009, 05:48 PM


    I agree with that whole post Kafirist. And the double bind that Islam imposes on its followers does seem different in intensity and practice from other religious communal identities.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Ummah-ism invites prejudice upon Muslims - Islam contains its own guilt
     Reply #11 - December 17, 2009, 05:50 PM

    Two themes emerge:

    Reductive identity and superiorism/evangelism/universalism.

    ^have always been problematic, above and beyond Islam. And Islam does build the experiental sense of community into the religion itself. That's one of the good things about it, but it does make it a mobilizing principle for division and hatred and that can make it very dangerous.

    I would point out that one reason for today's strife is the very loss of this, similarly shared by all cultures that have been subjected to globalization. But, secondly, that this has opened up the contestation of what is the ummah, how can it be today etc. that opens up very radical possibilities. There are also different 'ummahs'. Furthermore, IMO, no-one is reducible to their whatever-their-given-identity-is, that's the problem with the reductionism in the first place.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »