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 Topic: Inspiring words

 (Read 16613 times)
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  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #30 - December 22, 2009, 10:11 PM

    He has also debated with the grand ayotollah guy from iran (the cleric who recently died apparently). Look on his website for the debate
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #31 - December 22, 2009, 10:13 PM

    Ali Sina is a cautionary tale - Islam really can drive people nuts, even when they reject it. Its so easy to lose your perspective and mind, even to the extent of mimicking some of the madness of Islam in rejecting it.


    Exactly my take. Staring into that abyss for too long... Islam is that terrible.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #32 - December 22, 2009, 10:21 PM

    He might just be a crazy loon regardless of Islam, who knows? I'd rather we didn't try to psych 101 him when we don't even know him.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #33 - December 22, 2009, 10:24 PM

    He has also debated with the grand ayotollah guy from iran (the cleric who recently died apparently). Look on his website for the debate

    Do you know the guys name?
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #34 - December 22, 2009, 10:29 PM

    Found the debate with the Ayatollah: http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/montazeri.htm
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #35 - December 22, 2009, 10:42 PM

    Berbs - you gotta take it easy with those avatars. Damn girl.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #36 - December 23, 2009, 12:22 AM

    He's debated with Javed Ghamidi and Khalid Zaheer. You can see the debate here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/9450967/Ghamdi-Sina-Debate

    I haven't had a chance to read it yet, it was recommended by another user here who's opinion I respect. It spans over 200 pages.

    This is really good, I am up to page 15 - I recommend everyone (particularly omar khayyam) to just scan the first few pages of it to see if they want to read on.  I am interested to see how it pans out, and whether Sina is worth his metal (the opposing guy has set his parameters for the debate and looks good & fair so far..)

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  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #37 - December 23, 2009, 12:45 AM

    This is really good, I am up to page 15 - I recommend everyone (particularly omar khayyam) to just scan the first few pages of it to see if they want to read on.  I am interested to see how it pans out, and whether Sina is worth his metal (the opposing guy has set his parameters for the debate and looks good & fair so far..)


    Let me know how it goes nce you have finished. Way too late in the evening for me to start reading that.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #38 - December 23, 2009, 01:55 AM

    Debate looks good so far. Can't be bothered to go through the whole thing but at least it has not degenerated into hateful battle of words so far.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #39 - December 23, 2009, 02:00 AM

    Well I think the muslim side have been more respectful thus far.  However Sina has presented some amazing arguments that are indefensible.  Its compulsive reading and I'm on on p68 atm

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  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #40 - December 23, 2009, 02:01 AM

    He might just be a crazy loon regardless of Islam, who knows? I'd rather we didn't try to psych 101 him when we don't even know him.


    The worry about Ali Sina I have is this.

    Its to do with credibility. The problem is that ex-Muslims and Muslim dissenters are going to be attacked from so many angles by people from within Islam. Everyone knows that. One thing you will always face, is bare faced slander about your motives and agenda. The one thing ex-Muslims have as their strength is their integrity and their credibility. Not only to withstand the slings and arrows of the hysterics from within Islam, but attacks that are made from the more inverted parts of the secular-left, who try to sniff out any signs of 'Uncle Tom' and take their cue from the ideologues of the Islamism - Left alliance, who want to portray any opposition to Islam as inspired by bigotry, racism, Islamophobia, Neo-Con Zionism, etc etc etc

    Now, when you exist in such an environment,  if it is true as some have said, that he says Muslims are sub-human, and asserts the truly lunatic, about how aliens exist, allying yourself with the most demented right-wing hysterics about Obama.....these things immediately destroy your credibility. He begins to resemble the most bizarre conspiracy theorising Islamic extremist, who looks at non Muslims not as individuals but as animals worthy of contempt - except his conspiracy and contempt come from the opposite direction.  

    Its hard enough for ex-Muslims and Muslim dissenters as it is. Ali Sina, whilst he might have done or said some important things when he first started, slowly revealed himself to be a liability to the movement.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #41 - December 23, 2009, 02:15 AM

    The worry about Ali Sina I have is this.

    Its to do with credibility. The problem is that ex-Muslims and Muslim dissenters are going to be attacked from so many angles by people from within Islam. Everyone knows that. One thing you will always face, is bare faced slander about your motives and agenda. The one thing ex-Muslims have as their strength is their integrity and their credibility. Not only to withstand the slings and arrows of the hysterics from within Islam, but attacks that are made from the more inverted parts of the secular-left, who try to sniff out any signs of 'Uncle Tom' and take their cue from the ideologues of the Islamism - Left alliance, who want to portray any opposition to Islam as inspired by bigotry, racism, Islamophobia, Neo-Con Zionism, etc etc etc

    Now, when you exist in such an environment,  if it is true as some have said, that he says Muslims are sub-human, and asserts the truly lunatic, about how aliens exist, allying yourself with the most demented right-wing hysterics about Obama.....these things immediately destroy your credibility. He begins to resemble the most bizarre conspiracy theorising Islamic extremist, who looks at non Muslims not as individuals but as animals worthy of contempt - except his conspiracy and contempt come from the opposite direction. 

    Its hard enough for ex-Muslims and Muslim dissenters as it is. Ali Sina, whilst he might have done or said some important things when he first started, slowly revealed himself to be a liability to the movement.





    I guess Peruvian nailed it on the head when she said Sina is a nut case because some of the things I have seen him write have totally freaked me out.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #42 - December 23, 2009, 02:21 AM

    The worry about Ali Sina I have is this.

    Its to do with credibility. The problem is that ex-Muslims and Muslim dissenters are going to be attacked from so many angles by people from within Islam. Everyone knows that. One thing you will always face, is bare faced slander about your motives and agenda. The one thing ex-Muslims have as their strength is their integrity and their credibility. Not only to withstand the slings and arrows of the hysterics from within Islam, but attacks that are made from the more inverted parts of the secular-left, who try to sniff out any signs of 'Uncle Tom' and take their cue from the ideologues of the Islamism - Left alliance, who want to portray any opposition to Islam as inspired by bigotry, racism, Islamophobia, Neo-Con Zionism, etc etc etc

    Now, when you exist in such an environment,  if it is true as some have said, that he says Muslims are sub-human, and asserts the truly lunatic, about how aliens exist, allying yourself with the most demented right-wing hysterics about Obama.....these things immediately destroy your credibility. He begins to resemble the most bizarre conspiracy theorising Islamic extremist, who looks at non Muslims not as individuals but as animals worthy of contempt - except his conspiracy and contempt come from the opposite direction. 

    Its hard enough for ex-Muslims and Muslim dissenters as it is. Ali Sina, whilst he might have done or said some important things when he first started, slowly revealed himself to be a liability to the movement.


    Very well said.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #43 - December 23, 2009, 03:34 AM

    The worry about Ali Sina I have is this.

    Its to do with credibility. The problem is that ex-Muslims and Muslim dissenters are going to be attacked from so many angles by people from within Islam. Everyone knows that. One thing you will always face, is bare faced slander about your motives and agenda. The one thing ex-Muslims have as their strength is their integrity and their credibility. Not only to withstand the slings and arrows of the hysterics from within Islam, but attacks that are made from the more inverted parts of the secular-left, who try to sniff out any signs of 'Uncle Tom' and take their cue from the ideologues of the Islamism - Left alliance, who want to portray any opposition to Islam as inspired by bigotry, racism, Islamophobia, Neo-Con Zionism, etc etc etc

    Now, when you exist in such an environment,  if it is true as some have said, that he says Muslims are sub-human, and asserts the truly lunatic, about how aliens exist, allying yourself with the most demented right-wing hysterics about Obama.....these things immediately destroy your credibility. He begins to resemble the most bizarre conspiracy theorising Islamic extremist, who looks at non Muslims not as individuals but as animals worthy of contempt - except his conspiracy and contempt come from the opposite direction. 

    Its hard enough for ex-Muslims and Muslim dissenters as it is. Ali Sina, whilst he might have done or said some important things when he first started, slowly revealed himself to be a liability to the movement.




    Great post.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #44 - December 23, 2009, 08:36 AM

    I disagree that he's a liability.

    First off, hardly anyone knows of his views about obama, the thing about aliens was said in a private forum, not publically, and i think the same goes for the muslims being sub-human part (though it won't make sense for him to say that IMO because he himself was a muslim, so I'm inclined to think that he meant fundamentalists). All these things are in an obscure page somewhere, not linked to from anywhere else, and unless you guys had told me i would've never heard about them.

    Secondly, he's been running a popular website about criticism of islam since 2001 and has done immense amounts of work. 2 or 3 comments which are his personal beliefs only, do not undermine the work he has done in the 8 years, even the most cold-hearted critic would agree, IMO

    He is still running a popular website which will make many muslims think about their religion. The lame comments are hidden somewhere where most people won't hear about them. He's not by any means a liability.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #45 - December 23, 2009, 09:12 AM

    The worry about Ali Sina I have is this.

    Its to do with credibility. The problem is that ex-Muslims and Muslim dissenters are going to be attacked from so many angles by people from within Islam. Everyone knows that. One thing you will always face, is bare faced slander about your motives and agenda. The one thing ex-Muslims have as their strength is their integrity and their credibility. Not only to withstand the slings and arrows of the hysterics from within Islam, but attacks that are made from the more inverted parts of the secular-left, who try to sniff out any signs of 'Uncle Tom' and take their cue from the ideologues of the Islamism - Left alliance, who want to portray any opposition to Islam as inspired by bigotry, racism, Islamophobia, Neo-Con Zionism, etc etc etc

    Now, when you exist in such an environment,  if it is true as some have said, that he says Muslims are sub-human, and asserts the truly lunatic, about how aliens exist, allying yourself with the most demented right-wing hysterics about Obama.....these things immediately destroy your credibility. He begins to resemble the most bizarre conspiracy theorising Islamic extremist, who looks at non Muslims not as individuals but as animals worthy of contempt - except his conspiracy and contempt come from the opposite direction.  

    Its hard enough for ex-Muslims and Muslim dissenters as it is. Ali Sina, whilst he might have done or said some important things when he first started, slowly revealed himself to be a liability to the movement.


    Having hung out at Faithfreedom you find that the vast majority have no interest in freedom at all - strange bedfellows of racists, Christian fundamentalists and other elements being bought together in a unified hatred of Muslims. Not hatred of Islam as it practiced today, or its effects on Muslims or the way Muslims behave whilst acknowledging that Muslims are merely a byproduct of social conditioning - simply down right hatred of Muslims as a human; hating the Muslim part is only secondary to the over all hatred being that of 'the other'.

    I cross the line on occasions but anyone who knows me one on one will understand the context I say things in - what one sees in faithfreedom makes ones eyes water in horror at times.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #46 - December 23, 2009, 09:30 AM

    I disagree that he's a liability.

    First off, hardly anyone knows of his views about obama, the thing about aliens was said in a private forum, not publically, and i think the same goes for the muslims being sub-human part (though it won't make sense for him to say that IMO because he himself was a muslim, so I'm inclined to think that he meant fundamentalists). All these things are in an obscure page somewhere, not linked to from anywhere else, and unless you guys had told me i would've never heard about them.

    Secondly, he's been running a popular website about criticism of islam since 2001 and has done immense amounts of work. 2 or 3 comments which are his personal beliefs only, do not undermine the work he has done in the 8 years, even the most cold-hearted critic would agree, IMO

    He is still running a popular website which will make many muslims think about their religion. The lame comments are hidden somewhere where most people won't hear about them. He's not by any means a liability.


    2 or 3?  the sub human comments are rampant all the time, not only by him but by many of his article contributors and regular forum members.

    And no, only the alien thing was in the secret forum, the sub human stuff is all over the gaff.

    Quote from Ali sina

    Quote
    I am trying to show the world that Muslims are not humans. Their brain is structured in a very different way. We may be able to get along with crocodiles, snakes and scorpions but we will never be able to get along with Muslims.



    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #47 - December 23, 2009, 09:43 AM

    I ventured into his site at one point in my life, and I left it because I was disgusted with all the hatred. I will go back soon, and try to find rational articles amongst all the rabid venom. Wish me luck  Cheesy

    btw Berbs, what does your siggy mean? ASFC? What does that stand for?
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #48 - December 23, 2009, 09:45 AM

    I ventured into his site at one point in my life, and I left it because I was disgusted with all the hatred. I will go back soon, and try to find rational articles amongst all the rabid venom. Wish me luck  Cheesy

    btw Berbs, what does your siggy mean? ASFC? What does that stand for?


    You're more like to see Saudi Arabia become a secular liberal democracy than faithfreedom ever changing.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #49 - December 23, 2009, 10:05 AM



    btw Berbs, what does your siggy mean? ASFC? What does that stand for?



     Cheesy

    The meaning of ASFC by RIBS.  cool2


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #50 - December 23, 2009, 10:47 AM

    lol  ok Cheesy
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #51 - December 23, 2009, 03:34 PM

    The worry about Ali Sina I have is this.

    Its to do with credibility. The problem is that ex-Muslims and Muslim dissenters are going to be attacked from so many angles by people from within Islam. Everyone knows that. One thing you will always face, is bare faced slander about your motives and agenda. The one thing ex-Muslims have as their strength is their integrity and their credibility. Not only to withstand the slings and arrows of the hysterics from within Islam, but attacks that are made from the more inverted parts of the secular-left, who try to sniff out any signs of 'Uncle Tom' and take their cue from the ideologues of the Islamism - Left alliance, who want to portray any opposition to Islam as inspired by bigotry, racism, Islamophobia, Neo-Con Zionism, etc etc etc

    Now, when you exist in such an environment,  if it is true as some have said, that he says Muslims are sub-human, and asserts the truly lunatic, about how aliens exist, allying yourself with the most demented right-wing hysterics about Obama.....these things immediately destroy your credibility. He begins to resemble the most bizarre conspiracy theorising Islamic extremist, who looks at non Muslims not as individuals but as animals worthy of contempt - except his conspiracy and contempt come from the opposite direction.

    Its hard enough for ex-Muslims and Muslim dissenters as it is. Ali Sina, whilst he might have done or said some important things when he first started, slowly revealed himself to be a liability to the movement.

    The type of muslims who would use Ali Sina to attack ex-muslims as a whole are not worth our time.

    Fuck credibility, you make it sound like family honour. We shouldn't care if some crazy ex-muslim is getting the fame, we ex-muslims are not one unified group and we should never act like we are. We shouldn't care if Ali Sina is getting the limelight, it means nothing to us as a whole. We all have our individual reasons for leaving Islam and when you debate with a muslim this is all that really matters.

    Muslims already attack our credibility and integrity without the need of Ali Sina, to them we only left Islam so we can enjoy the haram things in the world or because we were misguided. It's up to us to show otherwise and that is the most important thing of all. What Ali Sina does in his spare time doesn't mean anything. He's paved the way for us and it's time for the rest of us to share the limelight and help others.

    Both CEMB and FFI are important, they both appeal to different types of muslims wavering in their faith. Some muslims need our soft approach to show them the way while others need the brutal approach by FFI.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #52 - December 23, 2009, 03:45 PM

    Sina is such a polemic, but he's a brilliant polemic at that  grin12






    Ye he comes off a bit extremist in his views though as mentioned before. His style attracts Christian fundamentalists, racists, bigots, non-Islamic religious fanatics. CEMB I feel is the right place to converse with Muslims who have doubts, FFI is the place for Muslims in doubt to be 'ripped out' and filled with anger and hatred towards Islam and Muslims.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #53 - December 23, 2009, 03:46 PM

    The type of muslims who would use Ali Sina to attack ex-muslims as a whole are not worth our time.

    Fuck credibility, you make it sound like family honour. We shouldn't care if some crazy ex-muslim is getting the fame, we ex-muslims are not one unified group and we should never act like we are. We shouldn't care if Ali Sina is getting the limelight, it means nothing to us as a whole. We all have our individual reasons for leaving Islam and when you debate with a muslim this is all that really matters.

    Muslims already attack our credibility and integrity without the need of Ali Sina, to them we only left Islam so we can enjoy the haram things in the world or because we were misguided. It's up to us to show otherwise and that is the most important thing of all. What Ali Sina does in his spare time doesn't mean anything. He's paved the way for us and it's time for the rest of us to share the limelight and help others.

    Both CEMB and FFI are important, they both appeal to different types of muslims wavering in their faith. Some muslims need our soft approach to show them the way while others need the brutal approach by FFI.


    While I agree there is no need to act like we're some unified body.. I don't agree that FFI appeals to specific kind of Muslims and that CEMB has some sort of a "soft" approach. I don't think there is anything remotely soft about what's posted on CEMB. I think FFI appeals to far right-wingers, christian evangelicals and other various bigots. They go way OTT into bashing Muslims and creating this dualistic worldview of Islam vs Humanity. Frankly, I think people like Ali Sina and some others are simply fronts for Christian evangelicals and are hatemongerers. The OP's quote is a great example, the dude is fantasizing about an epic war with Islam, almost sounds like Christian end-times shit.


    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #54 - December 23, 2009, 03:51 PM

    Just got to this bit after he made some great knockout punches- he's a polemic alright, but a genius at it  grin12

    Quote
    Please dont leave us dear Mr Ghamidi & Dr Zaheer yet.  The night is long and we have just begun.  I only served you a little appetizer  You must try the main course.  

    I have prepared for you a great feast.  The dishes are ready in the kitchen.  Alow me to set the table. I promise to bring one dish at a time so you do not get indegestion. One is more succculent than the other and I want you to relish each on separately


    All the best


    Ali Sina


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  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #55 - December 23, 2009, 04:01 PM

    While I agree there is no need to act like we're some unified body.. I don't agree that FFI appeals to specific kind of Muslims and that CEMB has some sort of a "soft" approach. I don't think there is anything remotely soft about what's posted on CEMB. I think FFI appeals to far right-wingers, christian evangelicals and other various bigots. They go way OTT into bashing Muslims and creating this dualistic worldview of Islam vs Humanity. Frankly, I think people like Ali Sina and some others are simply fronts for Christian evangelicals and are hatemongerers. The OP's quote is a great example, the dude is fantasizing about an epic war with Islam, almost sounds like Christian end-times shit.

    CEMB has a much softer approach then FFI in comparison. I do know ex-muslims who deconverted through FFI and said CEMBs approach wasn't enough for them.

    As for being a Christian front, Ali Sina is just a hypocrite who refuses to criticise any religion apart from Islam. He has a soft spot for Christianity, I think he was considering converting to it at one point after leaving Islam.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #56 - December 23, 2009, 04:05 PM

    Just got to this bit after he made some great knockout punhes- he's a polemic alright, but a genius at it  grin12


    I started reading through it yesterday, it's a very good debate.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #57 - December 23, 2009, 04:10 PM

    Meh, FFI had the opposite effect on my when I first came across it, I was repulsed by it. Hassan also mentioned how FFI delayed his deconversion. I don't understand how any Muslim could be persuaded by sheer bigotry against themselves - since that's what FFI is.

    Sure there are some Muslims that have had such a bad ride because of Islam and Muslims and thus really embrace that sort of rancid hatred.. but I think it's safe to say that a vast majority of criticial minded Muslims will be repulsed by such a site, as I was. Besides theirs forums seem to be filled with Christians and right-wingers, while this one has an ever growing community of genuine ex-muslims and free-thinkers.

    I still don't think FFI is harsher than CEMB, I think their starting points and goals are entirely different. CEMB I see as part of the general secularist/atheist and humanist movement. FFI I see as belonging to the right-wing Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes camp.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #58 - December 23, 2009, 04:19 PM

    Quote
    Meh, FFI had the opposite effect on my when I first came across it, I was repulsed by it. Hassan also mentioned how FFI delayed his deconversion. I don't understand how any Muslim could be persuaded by sheer bigotry against themselves - since that's what FFI is.

    Sure there are some Muslims that have had such a bad ride because of Islam and Muslims and thus really embrace that sort of rancid hatred.. but I think it's safe to say that a vast majority of criticial minded Muslims will be repulsed by such a site, as I was. Besides theirs forums seem to be filled with Christians and right-wingers, while this one has an ever growing community of genuine ex-muslims and free-thinkers.

    Agreed, but you have to marvel at Sina's brilliance in that debate.  Sina should be a lone ranger, without FFI, an ex-muslim version of Dawkins - if only he would show his face, then we could have some truly rocking live debates

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  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #59 - December 23, 2009, 04:22 PM

    Ali Sina is a great debunker of Islam, there is no doubt about that. He's also one of the first on the net to really expose people to harsh criticism of Islam. That he deserves praise and thanks for, without a doubt.

    I'd love to see real video debates of him ripping the shit out of Islamic apologetics.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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