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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi!!

 (Read 10801 times)
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  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #30 - December 24, 2009, 08:03 AM

    Well, those are reasonable arguments, but here's the fatal flaw that I see--

    If a counterrevolution occurs in Iran it will almost certainly be of a secular nationalist or moderate/reformist Islamic nature, because Islam is deeply entrenched in Iran, and the only proven method throughout history of replacing one religion with another in a given society is through force. I find it difficult to imagine Islam being displaced in the Muslim world by anything but increasing secularization and irreligion. If people are wavering from Islam in Iran or elsewhere it will be due to secularism, not the spread of another religion.

    Again, religions typically displace other religion through brute force-- the only way I see Zoroastrianism displacing Islam in Iran is if Zoroastrians become a big enough/well-organized enough of a minority and seize power through some kind coup, then force the rest of the population to convert, die, or suffer official state discrimination against them. Even then it will take centuries to completely displace Islam as the dominant religion, after millions of people have died, suffered, been imprisoned, etc.

    I just don't see a lot of historical examples of one religion completely displacing another in a region without a lot of violence, discrimination, genocide and brutality being involved. I really think the best hope for Iran is secular nationalism, a reform movement from within Islam, or a combination of the two.

    fuck you
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #31 - December 24, 2009, 08:07 AM

    Quote
    I just don't see a lot of historical examples of one religion completely displacing another in a region without a lot of violence, discrimination, genocide and brutality being involved. I really think the best hope for Iran is secular nationalism, a reform movement from within Islam, or a combination of the two.


    I guess the reason for that is: religions aren't divine. If there were, or there was one, people would flock to it, willingly. And if it was the truth then surely lies would shatter against the hard truth and darkness cast out (Quranic rephrase). Too bad it's more likely that people's heads will shatter against the ground. And rationality cast out.
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #32 - December 24, 2009, 08:09 AM

    Your right, the "majority" bit was me sort of stating something I actually have no actual facts on, so sorry about that! I guess I just presumed.

    About the elections and nature of Iranian society before the revolution I'm not sure about either. But Iran always seems to have had a generally conservative muslim rural and lower class. I can't imagine how the revolution could have happened and remained in power without at least some major support from some segment of the population.




    the revolution in 79 was never an Islamic Revolution
    It was a communist/popular revolution.

    At that time Communism was absolutely huge in Iran (my own dad was a communist in the tudeh party). All the communist parties were against the shah who they saw as a puppet of the Imperialists. A big chunk of Iran was also very poor, sort of like China today. Literacy rates were awful as well (50 percent) and that meant people could easily be swayed to one side or another in a matter of a few years. Resentment towards the monarchy was rampant throughout the Iranian society. Every group and institution had its own vision for Iran but they all shared an ultimate goal which was to see the shah out of power and have a democratic country. Once things got out of hand (some years before the revolution) the movement realized that it needed a genuine leader to unite the country. This is where the clergy comes in. THE ONLY INSTITUTION STRONG ENOUGH TO CHALLENGE THE MONARCHY WAS THE CLERGY. Unlike with all the groups, the shah could not just execute clergy members! Imagine executing the pope!!! The Italian society would erupt into anger. He couldn't kill ayatollah khomaini so he sent him into exile. From exile khomaini became "the leader of the people." HE BECAME GHANDI. Even communist groups (my own dad's party, even though he won't admit to it) willingly served khomaini because they though that the clergy is the only instituition that can unite the country.

    Fast forward to 79. The revolution has already happened and now people want to decide for their future. A referendum is held in Iran and the people vote for the Islamic REPUBLIC. I capitalized republic because that is what they all thought of. To them Islam was everything. My grandmother who voted for the Islamic republic prayed every day and considered herself a devout muslim but she didn't wear a hijab. My mother NEVER WORE A HIJAB IN HER LIFE NOR SHE PRAYED BEFORE THE IR REGIME but she was still in favor of the Islamic REPUBLIC. Same with my atheist communist father and uncles! They looked at Islam as a uniting factor. They never thought khomaini would turn the country into a THEOCRACY. Even a year after the toppling of the shah khomaini was saying that hijab will NEVER BECOME MANDATORY ETC... but soon things started changing. The traditional business class of Iran who controlled the nations wealth at the time (the bazaris) had the complete backing of the clergy. However the biggest reason the country was allowed to become a thecoracy was the Iran- Iraq war.
    The country fell into absolute chaos! The army was disassembled, the generals and officers and even air force pilots were all either executed and in jail or had escaped the country!! Khomaini and the ruling elite turned the war into a holy war. Soon Khomaini and his people started to shift alliances. The very people who helped them topple the shah were now enemies. During the 80s the clergy executed more than a hundred thousand POLITICAL PRISONERS. These people consisted of simple university students who identified themselves as communists or were people who were now seeing the true colors of khomaini. My own father signed his execution papers in jail three times but he was later released (Communists who were in the Tudeh party were dealt with less harshly b/c they helped the regime at the begining of the revolution, but again none of them want to admit that).
    The war united the people and any hope of rescuing the revolution was gone!

    The regime however made one bad decision that will soon cost them their power.
    In 1979 Iran had around 30 million people.
    Today Iran has around 80 million people.
    More than 70 percent of IRanians were born after the revolutions and want nothing to do with the Islamic Republic. The new generation are the MTV generation. Growing up we were brainwashed  day and night but when we went home we were in front of the internet, satellite TV, watching holly wood movies etc...
    The regime banned the use of condoms (they said it was unislamic) because they knew that after the death of 1.5 million men in the war they would need more people. However soon after they realized their mistake and banned the lift. Today Iran is the largest condom producer in the region and it even exports to the surrounding countries lol.

    Iran became an Islamic republic because people were ignorant and uneducated and they let it happen. The reality is that the majority of IRan today knows about the outside world unlike before concepts like secularism, democracy etc... are much more talked about unlike the past where the majority  were illiterate villagers.
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #33 - December 24, 2009, 08:17 AM

    Great and really informative post Nima. It's good you reminded me of this, I read a book on the Iranian revolution a long time ago and now I recall that the 79 revolution was essentially a leftist/socialist uprising that was hijacked and used by the mullahs to establish a theocracy. It's sad, but it goes to show how Iranian people really were victims of their own ignorance of Islam - I'm sure those intellectuals like Ali Shariati imagined Islam to be something not as brutal or oppressive as it really is. Too bad they had to discover the real Islam, especially political Islam, the hard way.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #34 - December 24, 2009, 08:19 AM

    I guess the reason for that is: religions aren't divine. If there were, or there was one, people would flock to it, willingly. And if it was the truth then surely lies would shatter against the hard truth and darkness cast out (Quranic rephrase). Too bad it's more likely that people's heads will shatter against the ground. And rationality cast out.


    Religions aren't divine but they have positive & negative characteristics, which keep people attached, or cause them to leave-or for that matter, cause people to make kids, indoctrinate those kids etc.

    In a free marketplace of religions, faiths which make this life better will have more takers than faiths which make this life a misery, even if people aren't believers in the afterlife.

    Islam doesn't really make this life better in most ways, but it has excellent control mechanisms like the death penalty for apostasy or punishments for blasphemy which cause many to stick to it.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #35 - December 24, 2009, 08:28 AM

    Well, those are reasonable arguments, but here's the fatal flaw that I see--

    If a counterrevolution occurs in Iran it will almost certainly be of a secular nationalist or moderate/reformist Islamic nature, because Islam is deeply entrenched in Iran, and the only proven method throughout history of replacing one religion with another in a given society is through force. I find it difficult to imagine Islam being displaced in the Muslim world by anything but increasing secularization and irreligion. If people are wavering from Islam in Iran or elsewhere it will be due to secularism, not the spread of another religion.

    Again, religions typically displace other religion through brute force-- the only way I see Zoroastrianism displacing Islam in Iran is if Zoroastrians become a big enough/well-organized enough of a minority and seize power through some kind coup, then force the rest of the population to convert, die, or suffer official state discrimination against them. Even then it will take centuries to completely displace Islam as the dominant religion, after millions of people have died, suffered, been imprisoned, etc.

    I just don't see a lot of historical examples of one religion completely displacing another in a region without a lot of violence, discrimination, genocide and brutality being involved. I really think the best hope for Iran is secular nationalism, a reform movement from within Islam, or a combination of the two.


    you're right again
    I guess what I'm saying is more of a wish than smtg that can be achieved but one can always hope and I see reasons to be hopeful.
    There is also another way to completely erase a religion from a society. If a group of people whose faith isn't very strong (Iran was a secular country during the time of the shah and people weren't very religious) are depressed long enough in the name of that faith we can see them stop believing in it in mass. Is such a thing possible in IRan? I believe so.
    You can already see it in Iran among the richer classes! You might argue that all over the world the richest are more secular etc... but do you see the rich people of other middle eastern countries badmouth Islam and its prophets and completely denounce the religion? absolutely not.
    The rest all depends on how strong zoroastrianism becomes as an institution in the long run but I definitely can't think of a time since 7 century AD where Islam has been so weak in Iran. I honestly can see more than a fifth of the country becoming Chrisitan, zoroastrian or completely denouncing religion the year that the Islamic regime goes. The taboo of denouncing Islam is not there anymore in the Iranian society unlike other mulsim countries, even w/in secular ones like Turkey.
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #36 - December 24, 2009, 08:31 AM

    Great post Nima.

    I had always wondered why the Iranians were against the Muslim regime when they helped put it in place. And now I see the true colors of the argument. Need to do some more reading on this subject.

    Dude I need your help with something, have you ever heard of this book?

    Tahrir-ul-Vaseela, 4th edition written by Khomeini.

    If so, have you read it yourself? Is it a forgery? Do you have  a copy of it?

    It's mentioned here:

    http://www.homa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74&Itemid=58

    And in this CEMB thread:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4640.384
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #37 - December 24, 2009, 08:39 AM

    @ blackdog
    I never really payed much attention to that douche bag but I think it's real!
    I've never even read a biography of him.
    All I know is that his dad came from India or smtg (I think).

    I will ask my parents about the book b/c I remember how they always joked about it when I was a kid.
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #38 - December 24, 2009, 08:41 AM

    Quote
    I will ask my parents about the book b/c I remember how they always joked about it when I was a kid.


    Khayli mamnon Smiley Please excuse my bastardization of your beautiful language haha.
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #39 - December 24, 2009, 08:44 AM

    are you kidding me, you're speaking great!
    I wish I had stayed in Iran long enough to have learned some Arabic!!!!
    Do you know how much fun I could have fighting with saudis if I knew arabic?  parrot

  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #40 - December 24, 2009, 08:46 AM

    If I'm not mistaken, Iran became Shia as late as the 16th century, prior to which it was Sunni.

    So Iran does have a history of changing religions & sects which can come in handy should they wish to drop Islam.

    Iran doesn't even need to be purged wholesale of Islam, loads of people quitting will marginalize it effectively, time will do the rest.

    There are people & places who've dropped religions without bloodshed, for eg South Korea, it was officially Confucian for 600 years of the Joseon dynasty, all other religions there, like Buddhism & Shamanism were suppressed.

    Today, only some .2 identify as Confucian, they found the faith oppressive, authoritarian, misogynistic etc & dropped it almost completely, switching to Buddhism, Christianity or no religion-although even Confucianism have plenty of positive characteristics, namely a very strong work ethic & discipline which made Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong  etc progress to first world status with little natural resources. Islam doesn't even have such points in its favor.

    I don't think Christianity will appeal to Iran to the same extent, & frankly I don't want to see Christianity spread, although anything which removes Islam is welcome. Since Iran has been on some sort of war with the West( & by extension with Judaism & Christianity) for so long, it'll make them feel that they're succumbing to the very faith & ideologies they fought so hard against.

    Zoroastrianism will make them feel that they've returned to their roots-to the superpower status they had for millennia before the Arab conquest, & that they're still different from the West,still unique. It has the best scope for appealing psychologically to Iranians.




    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #41 - December 24, 2009, 08:48 AM

    I just remembered that I once saw a video clip of the referendum they had back in 79!
    The  reporter is asking different people about what system they want to vote and it's really interesting. I hope it has subtitles.
    let me see If I can find it.
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #42 - December 24, 2009, 08:56 AM

    @ rashna
    I'm not sure about the 16th century.
    My family was extremely anti Islam so I never learned much about the religion but I think it was way before that.

    And Christianity is actually huge in IRan. Contrary to what people think Iranians are actually very pro western.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sL2c6rr5dI

    also

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6JPosCyCho

    There is a video that talks about people converting to Christianity and it shows people in an underground church
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #43 - December 24, 2009, 09:03 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RLB4vas_0c
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #44 - December 24, 2009, 09:08 AM

    @ rashna
    I'm not sure about the 16th century.
    My family was extremely anti Islam so I never learned much about the religion but I think it was way before that.

    And Christianity is actually huge in IRan. Contrary to what people think Iranians are actually very pro western.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sL2c6rr5dI

    also

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6JPosCyCho

    There is a video that talks about people converting to Christianity and it shows people in an underground church


    Islam became Iran's dominant religion way before the 16th century, but Shiite Islam became Iran's state religion only in the 16th century under the Safavid Dynasty, before that Iran was still Sunni.

    I have mixed feelings about the conversions to Christianity, on one hand, anything which makes Muslims ditch Islam is a positive thing to me-as most other religions don't have anywhere near the same amount of unpleasant characteristics,, and people who turn Christian have more chance than nominal, statistical Muslims of permanently ditching the religion, as they wouldn't raise their kids Muslim. On the other hand, I as a Zoroastrian would obviously prefer that people convert to Zoroastrianism.

    Maybe after the regime falls, like in the case of South Korea's Joseon Dynasty, there'd be plenty of old & new faiths competing-Christianity, Zoroastrian revival, the Bahai faith, some Buddhists, some new faiths & so on.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #45 - December 24, 2009, 04:44 PM


    It has always been noticeable, just how relatively liberal and secular minded Iranians from the diaspora are, just how much intellectual creativity is present in Iran manifested through literature and the great cinema being produced in Iran despite it being one of the most repressive regimes on earth.

    Could there ever have been such a stark contrast between the temperament of a people, and those tyrants who ruled them?

    Nim is right. It wasn't an Islamic revolution. It was a spontaneous uprising against the rule of the shah by the broad spectrum of the Left, students, civil society. That repulsive old man Khomeini sat watching like a toad on the side of a pond waiting to jump into the water, and when they did, they just killed everyone, murdered, tortured, terrified the Leftists, the secularists, whose morality of non violence didn't stand a chance against the divinely ordained murderers and psychopaths who 'cleansed' Iran of those who had actually instigated the popular uprising.

    The lesson was - Islam teaches that to kill for the revolution is divinity. And in a revolution, those that kill without compunction are the ones who will triumph.

    The 'Islamic Revolution' was a parasite on the people and their uprising. They didn't do anything. They just killed the most people, the Leftist, secularist revolutionaries.

    I love Iran. They know Islam and Islamic state power better than anyone, having lived under it for 30 years. And all those years of Islamic Arab imperialism have not extinguished the deep awareness and consciousness of the Persian peoples continuity with their pre-Islamic civilisation and culture. No matter how hard they try, they just cannot oppress or destroy and extinguish their ancestral memories and consciousness.

    They could be the great hope against the insanity of this theology and atavistic nihilism that Islam and Islamic governance have become in the 21st Century.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #46 - December 24, 2009, 04:49 PM


    Where else in the Islamic territories, could a religion as liberal, genuinely ecumenical, syncretic, and tolerant as Baha'i have emerged but Iran?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #47 - December 24, 2009, 04:50 PM

    I think this whole Islamist bullshit began and will end with Iran. Iranians are at the forefront of experiencing the true evil of Islamism. When the Islamic revolution took power it sent a sort of shockwave throughout the sunni world and was critical in the rise of Islamism as we know it. I think the current Iranian regime is really the Islamist equivalent of the Berlin wall. When these tyrants fall and the Muslim world sees young Iranians burning their hijabs in public - it will be a great blow to the morale of modern Islam.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #48 - December 25, 2009, 01:33 AM

    Welcome!  Wink
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #49 - December 25, 2009, 03:58 AM

    Welcome Nima   far away hug I am Iraqi and was born during the war. Needless to say, throughout my childhood I was brainwashed by Saddam's propaganda to believe that Iranians are evil, anti-Arab..etc. Thankfully now I know how lovely and enlightened they are and I really look forward to getting acquainted with many Iranians.


    Quote from: Rashna
    Take someone like Reza Aslan, his parents had realised how vile Islam is, his father was a virulently anti Islam atheist-agnostic, his mother became a Christian. He reverted to Islam, I think Zoroastrianism is a great alternative for such people for it'd give them a pride in their roots, a religion which has a pretty  reformed attitude to women currently as well as satisfy the need for religion & roots which many people feel.

    I like Reza. I've seen him on CNN, The Daily Show, and Real Time with Bill Maher. I know he's trying to start this liberal Muslim movement and I applaud him for that but it just doesn't add up. How can you be pro-gay rights and Muslim at the same time?

    Quote from: Nima
    -Every group and institution had its own vision for Iran but they all shared an ultimate goal which was to see the shah out of power and have a democratic country
    -At that time Communism was absolutely huge in Iran (my own dad was a communist in the tudeh party)
    -The very people who helped them topple the shah were now enemies. During the 80s the clergy executed more than a hundred thousand POLITICAL PRISONERS. These people consisted of simple university students who identified themselves as communists or were people who were now seeing the true colors of khomaini.

    I watched Persepolis and it shows how communists were persecuted immediately after the revolution. Great movie BTW.
    The post is engaging and informative. Thank you very much for sharing. I wish I knew my country's history that well and in such detail. Smiley

    Quote from: Nima
    You can already see it in Iran among the richer classes! You might argue that all over the world the richest are more secular etc... but do you see the rich people of other middle eastern countries badmouth Islam and its prophets and completely denounce the religion? absolutely not.

    Quote from: billy
    It has always been noticeable, just how relatively liberal and secular minded Iranians from the diaspora are, just how much intellectual creativity is present in Iran manifested through literature and the great cinema being produced in Iran despite it being one of the most repressive regimes on earth.

    You have to remember that Arab society is not solely shaped by Islam. The masochistic, backward and tribal culture plays an important role. That's why further you get from Najd and Hijaz (Saudi) the less Backward the country is.
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #50 - December 25, 2009, 04:21 AM

    I like Reza. I've seen him on CNN, The Daily Show, and Real Time with Bill Maher. I know he's trying to start this liberal Muslim movement and I applaud him for that but it just doesn't add up. How can you be pro-gay rights and Muslim at the same time?


    Of course it doesn't add up. As an Iranian, Reza Aslan should be ashamed of what he's doing. He's a sophist and an apologist for Islam. He's exactly the type of Muslim that made me the leave Islam - an intellectually dishonest 'liberal' muslim whose trying to sugar coat Islam for a western audience and make guilt-ridden westernised Muslims feel good. At a time when Islamic fundamentalism is wreaking violence and intellectual rot throughout the world, he should be confronting Islam instead of trying to play pretend.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #51 - December 25, 2009, 04:28 AM

    Islam became Iran's dominant religion way before the 16th century, but Shiite Islam became Iran's state religion only in the 16th century under the Safavid Dynasty, before that Iran was still Sunni.

    I have mixed feelings about the conversions to Christianity, on one hand, anything which makes Muslims ditch Islam is a positive thing to me-as most other religions don't have anywhere near the same amount of unpleasant characteristics,, and people who turn Christian have more chance than nominal, statistical Muslims of permanently ditching the religion, as they wouldn't raise their kids Muslim. On the other hand, I as a Zoroastrian would obviously prefer that people convert to Zoroastrianism.

    Maybe after the regime falls, like in the case of South Korea's Joseon Dynasty, there'd be plenty of old & new faiths competing-Christianity, Zoroastrian revival, the Bahai faith, some Buddhists, some new faiths & so on.


    Or why not just ditch both religions and embrace freethinking? Just a thought, rather than skip through all the different delusions.

    Of course it doesn't add up. As an Iranian, Reza Aslan should be ashamed of what he's doing. He's a sophist and an apologist for Islam. He's exactly the type of Muslim that made me the leave Islam - an intellectually dishonest 'liberal' muslim whose trying to sugar coat Islam for a western audience and make guilt-ridden westernised Muslims feel good. At a time when Islamic fundamentalism is wreaking violence and intellectual rot throughout the world, he should be confronting Islam instead of trying to play pretend.


    ye especially with regards to political Islam. This is really the biggest reason for why I believe Islam i smore dangerous than any other religion. That and the fact  that it makes absolutist claims such as it is the final revelation and the Qur'an is the perfect word of God. XTianity and Judaism have now been humbled by arachaeology and history so most Jews and Xtians do not make such absolutist claims anymore.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #52 - December 25, 2009, 04:36 AM

    Anyways, the idea of reviving Zoroastrianism is ridiculous at the core. It's silly as a lot of these European and other white folk trying to revive old celtic paganism. And besides, Zoroastrianism gave the Islam and Christianity a lot if its uglier ideas anyways. The concepts of hell, of heresy, of a dualistic world (good vs evil) is from Zoroastrianism and they are at the roots of a lot of the problems with these two religions.

    Best to respect the dead, and lets hope one day Islam joins the grave with the rest of these backward superstitions.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #53 - December 25, 2009, 04:51 AM

    Anyways, the idea of reviving Zoroastrianism is ridiculous at the core. It's silly as a lot of these European and other white folk trying to revive old celtic paganism. And besides, Zoroastrianism gave the Islam and Christianity a lot if its uglier ideas anyways. The concepts of hell, of heresy, of a dualistic world (good vs evil) is from Zoroastrianism and they are at the roots of a lot of the problems with these two religions.

    Best to respect the dead, and lets hope one day Islam joins the grave with the rest of these backward superstitions.


    Ye Rashna won't like that. She really never tells us much about her religion, not that I give a shit. I just get a bit sceptical as soon as I see a Xtian or non-muslim religious person come here and say Islam is this and that (which I will probably agree with) but then not criticise their own or to the same extent. It shows a great deal of hypocrisy on their part.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #54 - December 25, 2009, 04:59 AM

    It's pure hypocrisy. Islam is shit, don't get me wrong, but Islam wasn't born out of a vacuum, all its elements are from the previous faiths. The horrid genius of Islam is that it took all the worst elements of Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism and arab paganism and created the ultimately evil religion.

    But given the fact the Zoroastrianism, when in power in ancient persia, had been a very repressive religion I think there is lots of nasty shit about it that we simply don't know. Zoroastrianism had one of the first most organized and contolling clergies in human history - long before the Catholic church or the Ulema. It was particularly repressive because it had direct control of all religious affairs of the ancient Persian state, the Shahs would not interfere because there power rested with the Zoroastrian clergy. Reading the Cambridge History of Iran, which I have the full volumes of, Zoroastrian priests instigated lots of persecutions of buddhists, christians and manicheans throughout its history.

    I'm sure there are lots of good things about Zoroastrianism too, but looking at one religion with rose-tinted glasses and looking at another religion with shit-tinted glasses is simply hypocrisy and intellectual inconsistency.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #55 - December 25, 2009, 05:07 AM

    It's pure hypocrisy. Islam is shit, don't get me wrong, but Islam wasn't born out of a vacuum, all its elements are from the previous faiths. The horrid genius of Islam is that it took all the worst elements of Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism and arab paganism and created the ultimately evil religion.

    But given the fact the Zoroastrianism, when in power in ancient persia, had been a very repressive religion I think there is lots of nasty shit about it that we simply don't know. Zoroastrianism had one of the first most organized and contolling clergies in human history - long before the Catholic church or the Ulema. It was particularly repressive because it had direct control of all religious affairs of the ancient Persian state, the Shahs would not interfere because there power rested with the Zoroastrian clergy. Reading the Cambridge History of Iran, which I have the full volumes of, Zoroastrian priests instigated lots of persecutions of buddhists, christians and manicheans throughout its history.

    I'm sure there are lots of good things about Zoroastrianism too, but looking at one religion with rose-tinted glasses and looking at another religion with shit-tinted glasses is simply hypocrisy and intellectual inconsistency.


    LOL ye trust me i won't argue with you on that but Rashna gets so defensive if u mention zoroastrianism.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #56 - December 25, 2009, 05:10 AM

    Rashna doesn't like it if you don't curse Islam at least 5 times a day. Her religion is not Zoroastrianism, it's Islamophobia.  grin12

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #57 - December 25, 2009, 05:13 AM

    I think this whole Islamist bullshit began and will end with Iran. Iranians are at the forefront of experiencing the true evil of Islamism. When the Islamic revolution took power it sent a sort of shockwave throughout the sunni world and was critical in the rise of Islamism as we know it. I think the current Iranian regime is really the Islamist equivalent of the Berlin wall. When these tyrants fall and the Muslim world sees young Iranians burning their hijabs in public - it will be a great blow to the morale of modern Islam.

    You maybe right  Afro

    Lets drink to that  cheers

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #58 - December 25, 2009, 05:15 AM

    Quote from: Kafirist
    Of course it doesn't add up. As an Iranian, Reza Aslan should be ashamed of what he's doing. He's a sophist and an apologist for Islam. He's exactly the type of Muslim that made me the leave Islam - an intellectually dishonest 'liberal' muslim whose trying to sugar coat Islam for a western audience and make guilt-ridden westernised Muslims feel good. At a time when Islamic fundamentalism is wreaking violence and intellectual rot throughout the world, he should be confronting Islam instead of trying to play pretend.

    I agree with you but you have to put in mind the man wants to sell books at the end of the day Wink.
  • Re: Hi!!
     Reply #59 - December 25, 2009, 05:20 AM

    Yeah, he's a great seller of books. Bravo Reza, history will remember you well!  whistling2

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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