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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Should men have the right to have a baby aborted when they're not ready for it?
  • Yes - 10 (19.6%)
  • No - 41 (80.4%)
  • Total Voters: 51

 Topic: Men's right to abortions

 (Read 55900 times)
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  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #150 - December 30, 2009, 10:51 AM

    I am so glad only crazy people like you, with no political power whatsoever, think up these stupid selfish ideas.  Limited to the keyboard rant that you are, your suggestion, thank fuck, will never become a reality.  Afro


    I wish I had your optimism...

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #151 - December 30, 2009, 10:55 AM

    I agree with this, not only to exempt him from financial support of the chil, but also from having anything to do with the child.  If he doesn't want to be a part of that childs life and would prefer the baby was killed in womb, then he shouldn't be able to party for 5yrs, get it out of his sytem and then come looking for that child he was't interested in to start off with.

    Needless to say if he wants to be completely uninvolved in the child's life then by all means he should have that right. Also if he disowns the child before it was born then the mother has a right to get the child a a permanent restraining order that only she or the child can revoke.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #152 - December 30, 2009, 10:57 AM

    It is not my personal problem. Fatherhood should not be forced on someone. You should have the right to select if you want it or not.



    Then why should one risk it?  Femi Nazis piss me off but seriously you are being quite egoistic.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #153 - December 30, 2009, 10:59 AM

    Needless to say if he wants to be completely uninvolved in the child's life then by all means he should have that right. Also if he disowns the child before it was born then the mother has a right to get the child a a permanent restraining order that only she or the child can revoke.


    I would agree with that. 

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #154 - December 30, 2009, 11:01 AM

    Needless to say if he wants to be completely uninvolved in the child's life then by all means he should have that right.


    Perhaps, but even if a negative right exists, so does a compelling moral obligation to materially and/or emotionally support the child.

    fuck you
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #155 - December 30, 2009, 11:06 AM

    Perhaps, but even if a negative right exists, so does a compelling moral obligation to materially and/or emotionally support the child.

    There is an obligation but the man should be able to have that obligation legally absolved. Doesn't it make it "good", it just makes it "right". I explained it in my first reply.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #156 - December 30, 2009, 11:09 AM

    There is an obligation but the man should be able to have that obligation legally absolved. Doesn't it make it "good", it just makes it "right". I explained it in my first reply.


    And who is going to pay for the child to have a proper upbringing instead?  Especially if the mother might have financial difficulties?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #157 - December 30, 2009, 11:12 AM

    There is an obligation but the man should be able to have that obligation legally absolved. Doesn't it make it "good", it just makes it "right". I explained it in my first reply.


    I'm a little insulted that you think I don't understand the difference between a negative right against coercion and a moral obligation, especially when I though I made the distinction clear above. I understand what you are saying-- that it is not just to force someone to support a child they do not want, but I am just saying that while that may be true, their moral obligation is not absolved or even mitigated by a lack of legal obligation.

    fuck you
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #158 - December 30, 2009, 11:22 AM

    And who is going to pay for the child to have a proper upbringing instead?  Especially if the mother might have financial difficulties?

    She should irrespective of her financial ability. The state can help. Also she has the option to abort. Of course I'm saying this in the purest legal sense. If a friend of mine disowned his child before it was delivered and refused to pay support I would never talk to him again.

    I'm a little insulted that you think I don't understand the difference between a negative right against coercion and a moral obligation, especially when I though I made the distinction clear above. I understand what you are saying-- that it is not just to force someone to support a child they do not want, but I am just saying that while that may be true, their moral obligation is not absolved or even mitigated by a lack of legal obligation.

    Please don't be. I apologize. I didn't exactly get what you meant but now I do and I totally agree with you. Just because under the law you can disown the child doesn't make it morally justifiable. No getting around it.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #159 - December 30, 2009, 11:30 AM

    She should irrespective of her financial ability. The state can help. Also she has the option to abort. Of course I'm saying this in the purest legal sense. If a friend of mine disowned his child before he was aborted and refusef to pay support I would never talk to him again.


    Yes she should, the question is what happens if her contribution were not enough?  The state can and should help up to a certain extent, how ever it is not really fair on the tax payer is it?  Especially if this not limited to a few cases but becomes a problem in society.   It is simply not right that one acts irresponsibly and then walks away leaving other people to pay the price.  They should both be held accountable, financially at least.  It would serve as a warning to make people think before they do things.


    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #160 - December 30, 2009, 11:35 AM

    Its not really fair that the tax payer pays for lots of things - wars that they don't agree with, fat Euro MPs paychecks when they don't agree with Europe, MPs charging for the upkeep of their private moat, etc.  Shit happens, and child support would be some way down the list of unfair things I would get annoyed about.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #161 - December 30, 2009, 11:47 AM

    Yes she should, the question is what happens if her contribution were not enough?  The state can and should help up to a certain extent, how ever it is not really fair on the tax payer is it?  Especially if this not limited to a few cases but becomes a problem in society.   It is simply not right that one acts irresponsibly and then walks away leaving other people to pay the price.  They should both be held accountable, financially at least.  It would serve as a warning to make people think before they do things.

    Acting irresponsibly is not unique to the male. Some women act irresponsibly sometimes. I have once been in a relationship with a girl who didn't want me to use a condom for the sake of "spontaneity" and instead she elected to take contraceptives. What if she forgot to take the pill one day? who's acting responsibly in this scenario? I would argue it's the girl.
    A friend of mine once slept with the girl (in a one-night stand) who didn't even give him time to put on a condom. I don't know if it's because she was really horny or because she was acting horny or if he made it up, anyways, if she got pregnant in that scenario who would say was acting irresponsibly? I would say equally both and there they both should deal with the consequences equally.

  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #162 - December 30, 2009, 12:31 PM

    Its not really fair that the tax payer pays for lots of things - wars that they don't agree with, fat Euro MPs paychecks when they don't agree with Europe, MPs charging for the upkeep of their private moat, etc.  Shit happens, and child support would be some way down the list of unfair things I would get annoyed about.


    I agree that there are far worse things then child support, I would not mind digging into my pockets and lending a helping hand voluntarily.  I have done so before.  But one has to be careful to ensure that certain safety nets do not become hammocks and begin to serve as encouragement for irresponsible behavior, if you understand what I mean.


    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #163 - December 30, 2009, 12:34 PM

    Acting irresponsibly is not unique to the male. Some women act irresponsibly sometimes. I have once been in a relationship with a girl who didn't want me to use a condom for the sake of "spontaneity" and instead she elected to take contraceptives. What if she forgot to take the pill one day? who's acting responsibly in this scenario? I would argue it's the girl.
    A friend of mine once slept with the girl (in a one-night stand) who didn't even give him time to put on a condom. I don't know if it's because she was really horny or because she was acting horny or if he made it up, anyways, if she got pregnant in that scenario who would say was acting irresponsibly? I would say equally both and there they both should deal with the consequences equally.


    I know, that is why I said that both should be held accountable in my previous argument.  It takes two to tango (unless its proven to be rape)...

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #164 - December 30, 2009, 12:45 PM

    I don't, I merely meant that thank fuck this nutcase here has none.  If there are twats saying we should force abortions on women to protect mens rights who are in political power, lets use this thread to name and shame them?  Wink



     Roll Eyes  Thinking about men's rights makes me a nutcase huh? Seriously, use a better argument to defend your POV than personal insults or it sounds like you have no real argument.

  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #165 - December 30, 2009, 12:58 PM

    If a friend of mine disowned his child before it was delivered and refused to pay support I would never talk to him again.


    Exactly why I'm saying men should then have the right to have the child aborted.  Because while I would agree with it in principal that being allowed to legally disown a child and have nothing to do with it can be enough for the man, all his friends, colleagues, and society as a whole will boycott him when they find out, plus he will have his own guilt of abandoning his child.

    How can a short medical procedure be given more importance than a lifetime of turmoil for the man? I'm not saying its not important, but both should be given equal importance, men are currently given 0% importance right now.

    It being the woman's body does NOT give her the right to force fatherhood on a man which will last a lifetime. Everyone here continues to ignore the man's rights and doesn't even talk about them.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #166 - December 30, 2009, 01:01 PM

    I know, that is why I said that both should be held accountable in my previous argument.  It takes two to tango (unless its proven to be rape)...

    So we both agree that consequences should be shared.
    Now consider this scenario, they have sex and she becomes pregnant. The guy is offering to support the child financially, wants to have the baby, and pregnancy/delivery poses absolutely no risk to the woman's health, would you agree that the law should still allow her to abort? I personally do because I'm staunchly pro-choice.
    If you also do, then you would agree that if she wanted to have the baby and he wanted to abort it then at least he should be exempted from the duties and here's why: if we were a different species and the fetus gestates on its own outside the female's body then I would grant equal abortion rights to the male and the female.
    Now given that we are humans and the fetus gestates inside the female's body, I wouldn't.

    What I am inarticulately to say, is that my only objection to granting men abortion rights is only because it's the woman's body and not because he should carry the responsibility.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #167 - December 30, 2009, 01:02 PM

    Exactly why I'm saying men should then have the right to have the child aborted.  Because while I would agree with it in principal that being allowed to legally disown a child and have nothing to do with it can be enough for the man, all his friends, colleagues, and society as a whole will boycott him when they find out, plus he will have his own guilt of abandoning his child.

    How can a short medical procedure be given more importance than a lifetime of turmoil for the man? I'm not saying its not important, but both should be given equal importance, men are currently given 0% importance right now.

    It being the woman's body does NOT give her the right to force fatherhood on a man which will last a lifetime. Everyone here continues to ignore the man's rights and doesn't even talk about them.

    I agree with you liberated with one cardinal exception. It's because it's the woman's body. Period.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #168 - December 30, 2009, 01:19 PM

    So we both agree that consequences should be shared.
    Now consider this scenario, they have sex and she becomes pregnant. The guy is offering to support the child financially, wants to have the baby, and pregnancy/delivery poses absolutely no risk to the woman's health, would you agree that the law should still allow her to abort? I personally do because I'm staunchly pro-choice.


    No I don't.  I could never support abortion.  To me that unborn foetus is a potential precursor to a successful human being.  Of course the complete opposite could happen but I believe that no one should have the power of life and death over it and deny it that opportunity, irrelevant of how small the chance is.  If the parents really cannot  take care of it, they may give it up for adoption.  I would agree that it should be an option in extreme cases, such as perhaps if the pregnancy came about because of rape or if the mother's life is in danger.

    Mind you, I am not one of those 'pro life' fanatics and I am not going to condemn a woman who does it, but personally I oppose it.

    What I am inarticulately to say, is that my only objection to granting men abortion rights is only because it's the woman's body and not because he should carry the responsibility.


    Yes I agree with that position as well...  That is the other chief reason why I am against what Liberated was saying.  Pregnancy does not only involve conception and the interaction of gametes.  The process continues for 9 months, during which the male has hardly any biological use.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #169 - December 30, 2009, 01:48 PM

    Quote from: ras111
    No I don't.  I could never support abortion.  To me that unborn foetus is a potential precursor to a successful human being.  Of course the complete opposite could happen but I believe that no one should have the power of life and death over it and deny it that opportunity, irrelevant of how small the chance is.  If the parents really cannot  take care of it, they may give it up for adoption.  I would agree that it should be an option in extreme cases, such as perhaps if the pregnancy came about because of rape or if the mother's life is in danger.

    I respect your pro-life position. I hope we still share the belief that both should be held equally responsible.

    My philosophy on abortion in general is almost exactly like Peter Singer's. I didn't read him and then change my position, I've just always had this belief. It's very coherent and basic ethics. Here:

    Quote from: Wikipedia-Peter Singer on abortion
    Consistent with his general ethical theory, Singer holds that the right to life is intrinsically tied to a being's capacity to hold preferences, which in turn is intrinsically tied to a being's capacity to feel pain and pleasure. In his view, the central argument against abortion is equivalent to the following logical syllogism:

    First premise: It is wrong to take innocent human life.
    Second premise: From conception onwards, the embryo or fetus is innocent, human and alive.
    Conclusion: It is wrong to take the life of the embryo or fetus.


    In his book Rethinking Life and Death Singer asserts that, if we take the premises at face value, the argument is deductively valid. Singer comments that those who do not generally think abortion is wrong attack the second premise, suggesting that the fetus becomes a "human" or "alive" at some point after conception; however, Singer argues that human development is a gradual process, that it is nearly impossible to mark a particular moment in time as the moment at which human life begins.
    Singer's argument for abortion differs from many other proponents of abortion; rather than attacking the second premise of the anti-abortion argument, Singer attacks the first premise, denying that it is wrong to take innocent human life:

    [The argument that a fetus is not alive] is a resort to a convenient fiction that turns an evidently living being into one that legally is not alive. Instead of accepting such fictions, we should recognise that the fact that a being is human, and alive, does not in itself tell us whether it is wrong to take that being's life.

    Singer states that arguments for or against abortion should be based on utilitarian calculation which weighs the preferences of a mother against the preferences of the fetus. In his view a preference is anything sought to be obtained or avoided; all forms of benefit or harm caused to a being correspond directly with the satisfaction or frustration of one or more of its preferences. Since a capacity to experience the sensations of suffering or satisfaction is a prerequisite to having any preferences at all, and a fetus, at least up to around eighteen weeks, says Singer, has no capacity to suffer or feel satisfaction, it is not possible for such a fetus to hold any preferences at all. In a utilitarian calculation, there is nothing to weigh against a mother's preferences to have an abortion, therefore abortion is morally permissible.

  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #170 - December 30, 2009, 01:57 PM

    I agree with you liberated with one cardinal exception. It's because it's the woman's body. Period.


    What about the fetus in her body coming from my sperm? My offspring. With my DNA and my hair and eyes. Why completely ignore that?
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #171 - December 30, 2009, 02:01 PM

    It's not your intellectual property.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #172 - December 30, 2009, 02:04 PM


     Roll Eyes  Thinking about men's rights makes me a nutcase huh? Seriously, use a better argument to defend your POV than personal insults or it sounds like you have no real argument.




     Cheesy  Is that what this is?   lol and there was me thinking that you were thinking about violating womens rights rather than truly thinking about mens rights.  Roll Eyes

    As to not having an arguement, you have been given plenty, by many posters, but you want what you want and that is the right to have a woman strapped to a hospital bed and a baby forcibly removed from her, so that you can carry on with your fun, sowing your seed......wasn't that what you said?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #173 - December 30, 2009, 02:07 PM

    In theory a child/fetus is made from equal parts of the man and woman, so both man and woman should have equal say in whether the child/fetus lives or not. There should be a consensus to abort and an objection from either party to prevent an abortion. But since the woman is in posession of the child/fetus during the incubation period, then she is solely responsible for that child's/fetus's continuation for that time. Pocession is 9/10th' of the law. It is unfair to a pro-life male to be powerless to protect his offspring. Life is unfair. A man's input into a pregnancy's termination decision is completely in the hands of the woman. If it is important for the man to have such input then he should assure he has it (by creating a bond based on trust and mutual respect) before risking a pregnancy.

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #174 - December 30, 2009, 02:18 PM

    Quote from: liberated
    What about the fetus in her body coming from my sperm? My offspring. With my DNA and my hair and eyes. Why completely ignore that?

    Again I agree with you but I just don't support a law that forces a woman to abort. No fucking way. At the same time, I'm not against the father asking/pleading/beseeching/entreating the woman to abort. In fact, I think the woman ought to take the father's feelings into consideration. I just can't make it a law. It's her body.

    Quote from: Submissive Bob
    In theory a child/fetus is made from equal parts of the man and woman, so both man and woman should have equal say in whether the child/fetus lives or not. There should be a consensus to abort and an objection from either party to prevent an abortion. But since the woman is in posession of the child/fetus during the incubation period, then she is solely responsible for that child's/fetus's continuation for that time. Pocession is 9/10th' of the law. It is unfair to a pro-life male to be powerless to protect his offspring. Life is unfair. A man's input into a pregnancy's termination decision is completely in the hands of the woman. If it is important for the man to have such input then he should assure he has it (by creating a bond based on trust and mutual respect) before risking a pregnancy.

    Nicely put.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #175 - December 30, 2009, 02:44 PM

    Quote
    In fact, I think the woman ought to take the father's feelings into consideration.


    Agreed.  Afro

    That might be a lesson to learn, don't stick your noodle in a bowl you don't know very well.  Only have sex with someone you trust well enough to know that if such an unwanted pregnancy would arise, she would actually take your feelings into consideration too.

    These guys banging strangers, and then crying that this stranger won't take their feelings into consideration when debating whether to keep the baby or not, is ridiculous.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #176 - December 30, 2009, 02:49 PM



    These guys banging strangers, and then crying that this stranger won't take their feelings into consideration when debating whether to keep the baby or not, is ridiculous.




    But in the same light, aren't the women that are giving consent to having sex with these strangers, crying when the male doesn't wanna raise the baby and walks out? I think he has every right to walk out, if he doesn't care/ or can't take care of the baby.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #177 - December 30, 2009, 02:50 PM

    Quote
    you want what you want and that is the right to have a woman strapped to a hospital bed and a baby forcibly removed from her, so that you can carry on with your fun, sewing your seed......


    You're ignoring the effects on the man completely if the child IS born and that's what pisses me off. A woman being strapped to a bed is such a terrible thing, but a man losing his happiness, getting stressed, anxiety, guilt, depression, etc throughout his life, and even the financial tradeoffs mean nothing? You don't even mention them.

    We need to think of a mutual way which respects both the man and the woman's rights. You thinking only of the woman's rights is not fair.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #178 - December 30, 2009, 02:52 PM

    But in the same light, aren't the women that are giving consent to having sex with these strangers, crying when the male doesn't wanna raise the baby and walks out? I think he has every right to walk out, if he doesn't care/ or can't take care of the baby.


    That's a separate argument Tommy.  Berbs has already said in this thread that if the man doesn't want to be involved then he shouldn't have to.  What we're arguing against is Liberated's notion that if the man doesn't want to be involved he should have the "right" to force the woman to undergo an abortion against her will.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #179 - December 30, 2009, 02:54 PM

    In theory a child/fetus is made from equal parts of the man and woman, so both man and woman should have equal say in whether the child/fetus lives or not. There should be a consensus to abort and an objection from either party to prevent an abortion. But since the woman is in posession of the child/fetus during the incubation period, then she is solely responsible for that child's/fetus's continuation for that time. Pocession is 9/10th' of the law. It is unfair to a pro-life male to be powerless to protect his offspring. Life is unfair. A man's input into a pregnancy's termination decision is completely in the hands of the woman. If it is important for the man to have such input then he should assure he has it (by creating a bond based on trust and mutual respect) before risking a pregnancy.


    I agree with you on most points, however compare a 9 month long pregnancy which a pro-life man would want, with a relatively painless and easy procedure of a 30 min abortion. In the case of the abortion I really think the rights of the man and woman equal up. The woman is not made to go through any real physical discomfort, in fact the abortion is almost pain-free whereas the pregnancy and childbirth are full of pain and risks.

     The only real trauma she may have to go through is the pyschological trauma of losing a child, but it is both of their child, both have an equal right over it, and women also have the right to get an abortion even when a pro-life man wants to stop it. So I think the law should me made equal in this case and this right should be given to both the man & the woman.

    In this case this argument needs to be reconsidered, I think both the man and the woman have an equal right to have the child aborted if they don't want it.
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