Men's right to abortions

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #270 - December 30, 2009, 08:14 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:10 PM
My question was, is it right to force fatherhood on a man? To clarify, if a man does not want a child, is it right for a woman to force fatherhood on him by giving birth to the child and not aborting it?

Nobody forced the guy to fuck her. Unless he was raped.. lol.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #271 - December 30, 2009, 08:15 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 30, 2009, 08:09 PM
You seem to do a great job at missing the point Liberated. The bottom line is you're talking about an individuals body and demanding that external agents have the authority to force a woman undergo a abortion procedure against her will. And that is a reprehensible, illiberal and human rights violating stance to take.

But the point everyone is missing that you're talking about an individual's life and forcing parenthood on him. It may result in increased financial stress, the stress of abandoning a child, and the stresses of becoming a father when he's not ready. People talk about who horrible it is to abort a child when a woman doesn't want to give it up. But no one talks about how horrible it is to force a man to become a father when he doesn't want to be one.

Quote from: Kafirist on December 30, 2009, 08:09 PM
If you wanted to be reasonable you could have argued that men who are unwittingly (for whatever reason) put in the position of fatherhood should have the right, if evidence is provided, to be freed from or 'emancipated' from paternal responsibilities. But saying authorities should force a procedure on a woman because of the 'feelings' of the impregnator, is crossing into mysogynistic territory.

This is actually a good suggestion but considering the way our society is right now.. the man will be committing social suicide. Plus you can't just walk away from your own offspring. Think about it, an offspring that has your DNA and looks like you. If you abandon it you will be under tremendous guilt. Therefore you should have the right to not have it brought into the world in the first place. Women have this right so why not men?

Quote from: Kafirist on December 30, 2009, 08:09 PM
And finally, a man can simply choose not to have sex if this is such a worry for him. If he's going to engage in sexual intercourse with a woman he needs to shut the fuck up and accept the consequences.

Why don't women shut the fuck up and accept the consequences that if they have sex & get pregnant, and the father does not want a child, then she will have to get an abortion? Hence they should discuss it beforehand or not have sex with those men who don't want kids.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #272 - December 30, 2009, 08:16 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 30, 2009, 08:14 PM
Nobody forced the guy to fuck her. Unless he was raped.. lol.

When consenting adults have sex nobody forces the woman to have sex either. Why should it be men who have to live with a baby? Why can't women live with an abortion? Nobody forced them either
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #273 - December 30, 2009, 08:17 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 06:23 PM
I was joking, do you really think anyone would get over the guilt of abandoning a child in an year? If anything the guilt will increase with the time as the man is reminded every day that the child he abandoned is growing up without him and hating him. Its completely different to a child dying because a dead child is already gone and you're not reminded of it every day.

You're fucking kidding right? *facepalm*

As for the guilt of abandoning a child, that is easily fixed, look after it! What about the guilt of forcing your spouse into an abortion? How are you going to live with that guilt?! She will be forever scarred and will hate you for it, yet somehow this is ok?

Quote
Plus I've said earlier that if a woman chooses abortion, the man can also be traumatized by having his child killed, in the same way the man's rights should be respected even if it means the woman is traumatized, the woman's trauma is not somehow more valuable than a man's.

Because it is HER body. You cannot force her to go through a 9 month pregnancy against her will, just like you cannot force her to have an abortion. If the fetus was developing outside of both bodies then you'd have a point, but when it involves someone's body it becomes biased towards that person and for a damn good reason.

Not everything can be equal.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #274 - December 30, 2009, 08:18 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:16 PM
When consenting adults have sex nobody forces the woman to have sex either. Why should it be men who have to live with a baby? Why can't women live with an abortion? Nobody forced them either

You really are a broken record.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #275 - December 30, 2009, 08:18 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 07:55 PM
Should a woman have the right to force fatherhood on a man?

I've summarized my arguments in this post:
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8079.msg199507#msg199507

Not saying abortion is not traumatizing for a woman, however it is also traumatizing for a pro-life man when his child is aborted by a woman's choice. In that case his trauma is ignored by law. The same should be done in case of a man wanting an abortion, a woman's trauma should be ignored by law to give both men & women equal rights.

Yes, men can definitely be traumatized by a woman having his baby aborted. But sorry, you're going to have to trust people here. Trust that a woman is smart enough to make the right decision. There's some nutty bitches out there who would trap a man into fatherhood. That's wrong. But You don't make a general rule based on a minority.

Pls read the abortion stories. Theres male voices in there that speak of going thru emotional problems because of aborting a baby when they both decided on it. Plus I wonder how it is that we see men go on to live normal lives when they choose to give up fatherhood. Here in TO you see so many moms walkin around with their babies. A lot are single and dont have men at home. Theyre takin care of their babies. You need to let go of this traditional shit where women dont work. Uh half the frickin workforce is women. Do you seriously think these men were kicked out of their children's lives? BELIEVE me, there are many more single moms who ve been abandoned by men who dont care, than men walkin around emotionally traumatized cuz they have a kid they didnt want. You act like two unmarried parents cant patch things up and cooperate in bringing up their child, even if one didnt want it.

And you're totally right. Things are definitely made equal one half of scoiety loses unconditional sovereignty over their bodies to the other half and the reverse does not happen. My body, my decision. Good luck getting a panel of ordinary men to dispute this. If a woman has to lose this right, then so do men. This is just making things equal, right?

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #276 - December 30, 2009, 08:19 PM

I think it's time for the missing the point dance. *dances the missing the point dance*

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #277 - December 30, 2009, 08:21 PM

ARGUMENTUM AD CONSEQUENTIUM

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #278 - December 30, 2009, 08:22 PM

Quote from: Angel54 on December 30, 2009, 08:02 PM
Everything you've said completely belies that line. what you've suggested is to take away person's inalienable right to decide what happens to their own fucking body and transfer it some one else. How is that equality? I cant envision a situation where a man decides his gf/wife is going to have an abortion and doesnt care that she doesnt want to. Even if this was an option, there would have to be a 100 percent rate of success. I dont know, use birth control + 3 condoms, whatever. There absolutely cannot be a failure rate.

If there is then youre saying: "I want the right to have and enjoy sex knowing full fucking well that I could get the girl pregnant, no matter how small the failure rate; if this does happen, I then want the right to give up fatherly responsibilities (which you can do) and on top of that I want the right to usurp her right to her own body and decide on my own w/o getting her consent, to abort this baby." Great fuckin idea of gender equality.

Put this in broader context. I'm still saying that women have the right to abort the baby as well even without the man's consent. I'm also giving this right to the father though. Abortion is an easier medical procedure than a pregnancy and childbirth. Its a baseless argument that a woman shouldn't be forced to go through an abortion.

Think of it this way. The woman can have only 2 grounds of objection to an abortion:

1) Fear of medical consequences / physical discomfort
2) Psychological attachment to the child & not wanting to give it up

Point # 1 is baseless because an early stage abortion is way less complicated than a pregnancy & childbirth. Its less risky. Less deaths occur in it, and its relatively painless compared to childbirth. Hence no woman can genuinely object on this grounds.

About point # 2, why should a woman's desire to have the child be respected any more than the man's desire to have the child in a pro-life man, pro-abortion woman case? This is not equality. Both genders have an equal biological right over the child, hence both parents should have the right to abort it.

I'm also saying by all means have all sorts of clauses in the law saying all protection must be used by the man, and this should only be allowed for early-stage abortions, etc, so this doesn't become birth control for men. And it won't.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #279 - December 30, 2009, 08:24 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:15 PM
But the point everyone is missing that you're talking about an individual's life and forcing parenthood on him. It may result in increased financial stress, the stress of abandoning a child, and the stresses of becoming a father when he's not ready. People talk about who horrible it is to abort a child when a woman doesn't want to give it up. But no one talks about how horrible it is to force a man to become a father when he doesn't want to be one.
This is actually a good suggestion but considering the way our society is right now.. the man will be committing social suicide. Plus you can't just walk away from your own offspring. Think about it, an offspring that has your DNA and looks like you. If you abandon it you will be under tremendous guilt. Therefore you should have the right to not have it brought into the world in the first place. Women have this right so why not men?

Why don't women shut the fuck up and accept the consequences that if they have sex & get pregnant, and the father does not want a child, then she will have to get an abortion? Hence they should discuss it beforehand or not have sex with those men who don't want kids.

Then don't have sex with her!!! FFS! You're just going in this insane circular logic and a total misunderstanding of 'rights'!!

Jesus fucking christ.. if you don't want the tot, don't put it in her slot! If you want to live the dream, don't spill ur cream! If you don't want a kid, triple wrap ur dick! Get what I'm saying??

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #280 - December 30, 2009, 08:28 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:10 PM
That wasn't my question. My question was, is it right to force fatherhood on a man? To clarify, if a man does not want a child, is it right for a woman to force fatherhood on him by giving birth to the child and not aborting it?

That's because none of you pot-heads are listening to me so I have to repeat myself a 1000 times

Clearly you're the one on pot, since your memory seems not to be so good.

No one's forcing fatherhood on anyone. No one can force a man to take care of a baby he did not want in the first place. As was said, legally you can give up this right so there. Biologically, there's fuck all you can do. A person's right to their body cannot be cicumvented. One person gives up a right. another person gains one. Fucking jesus. You actually made me facepalm myself for real. Like without thinking and not as an over exaggerated gesture of my exasperation.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #281 - December 30, 2009, 08:31 PM

Quote from: Angel54 on December 30, 2009, 08:18 PM
Here in TO you see so many moms walkin around with their babies. A lot are single and dont have men at home. Theyre takin care of their babies. You need to let go of this traditional shit where women dont work. Uh half the frickin workforce is women. Do you seriously think these men were kicked out of their children's lives? BELIEVE me, there are many more single moms who ve been abandoned by men who dont care, than men walkin around emotionally traumatized cuz they have a kid they didnt want.

One 30 min operation and that frickin kid which ruined their relationship and their lives would not have come into the world and they'd still be living happily together. And there are lots of men who are emotionally traumatized by abandoning their children. They may not show it but its there. At least I know for sure that I would be traumatized by it
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #282 - December 30, 2009, 08:35 PM

Quote
No one can force a man to take care of a baby he did not want in the first place. As was said, legally you can give up this right so there. Biologically, there's fuck all you can do. A person's right to their body cannot be cicumvented. One person gives up a right. another person gains one.

Fatherhood is not just legal, by giving birth to my offspring without my consent you ARE trampling on my rights.

What can a man possibly gain through the right to say no to an abortion which will make the woman lose? I'm saying by all means put in conditions to this law and make it very specific so that men will not use it to control women and misuse this law.

Btw, if a woman is told about this law in advance, she will be a lot less traumatized and will likely go with the abortion without having to be strapped down and forced. Consider a man from 17th century, if his wife wanted to get an abortion today and he wanted the kid, he'd have to be tied down or sent away to let her live in peace afterwards. Whereas the reaction of men today may be pleading etc but they will generally accept the woman's rights and go along with it. Similarly the women need to accept the man's rights that if a man does not want to become a father, whether legally or otherwise, it shouldn't be forced on him.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #283 - December 30, 2009, 08:38 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:35 PM
by giving birth to my offspring without my consent you ARE trampling on my rights.

You're fuckin insane, man. Love it.

fuck you
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #284 - December 30, 2009, 08:40 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 30, 2009, 08:24 PM

Then don't have sex with her!!! FFS! You're just going in this insane circular logic and a total misunderstanding of 'rights'!!

Jesus fucking christ.. if you don't want the tot, don't put it in her slot! If you want to live the dream, don't spill ur cream! If you don't want a kid, triple wrap ur dick! Get what I'm saying??

Why don't you tell that to women? Tell them not to spread their legs if they don't want to abort the child if the father didn't want it! Or discuss it beforehand to avoid misunderstandings! Get what I'm saying?
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #285 - December 30, 2009, 08:43 PM

No, listen. Your rights, do not extend beyond your fucking cock. The moment that little spittle of liquid limply exits your system and into her vajayjay thats end game. Your rights do not extend over her body, irregardless of the consequences of what her body may produce. So please, go read up on the concept of "rights", you seem to have your own meaning of it.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #286 - December 30, 2009, 08:43 PM

Liberated are you Kope by any chance?

Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #287 - December 30, 2009, 08:44 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:22 PM
Put this in broader context. I'm still saying that women have the right to abort the baby as well even without the man's consent. I'm also giving this right to the father though. Abortion is an easier medical procedure than a pregnancy and childbirth. Its a baseless argument that a woman shouldn't be forced to go through an abortion.

Think of it this way. The woman can have only 2 grounds of objection to an abortion:

1) Fear of medical consequences / physical discomfort
2) Psychological attachment to the child & not wanting to give it up

Point # 1 is baseless because an early stage abortion is way less complicated than a pregnancy & childbirth. Its less risky. Less deaths occur in it, and its relatively painless compared to childbirth. Hence no woman can genuinely object on this grounds.

About point # 2, why should a woman's desire to have the child be respected any more than the man's desire to have the child in a pro-life man, pro-abortion woman case? This is not equality. Both genders have an equal biological right over the child, hence both parents should have the right to abort it.

I'm also saying by all means have all sorts of clauses in the law saying all protection must be used by the man, and this should only be allowed for early-stage abortions, etc, so this doesn't become birth control for men. And it won't.

It Does. Not. Matter how easy a medical procedure abortion is . AGAIN. APPEAL to CONSEQUENCES. To say an abortion is not as bad becasue its less risky is fucking EPIC FAIL. Illogical argument. if u used this arguemnt in an essay, youd get an F. simple as that. If a woman chooses to go thru an abortion the risks dont diminsh but she chose it, so its fine. Under no circumstances is it OK for you to decide what happens to someone else's body, if they are a competent person.

Yes a pregnancy and birth have more cmplcations but its not more or less wrong based on this again. APPEAL TO CONSEQUENCES. its funny usu when ppl realize their makin a logical fallacy they try to adopt a logical other mode of reasoning.

Equality isnt possible in this case. there is no equality in briginga baby into the world. the woman takes on the lions share of responsibility. Its scary/laughable that you think that a womans unconditional righ to her body is baseless. No one can touch your body if you say so. Your body belings to you like your life belongs to you, which is why its stupid to ban suicide.

You need to stop looking for a happy ending where there is none.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #288 - December 30, 2009, 08:45 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 30, 2009, 08:43 PM
No, listen. Your rights, do not extend beyond your fucking cock. The moment that little spittle of liquid limply exits your system and into her vajayjay thats end game. Your rights do not extend over her body, irregardless of the consequences of what her body may produce. So please, go read up on the concept of "rights", you seem to have your own meaning of it.

If that is so then why the fuck am I expected to pay child support for that little spittle of liquid that leaves my cock? Why is there all the cultural backlash against the men who abandon their children? Its because that little spittle of liquid is my offspring and if she is allowed to kill it, so should I be. You're being a hypocrit and you know it
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #289 - December 30, 2009, 08:45 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:40 PM
Why don't you tell that to women? Tell them not to spread their legs if they don't want to abort the child if the father didn't want it! Or discuss it beforehand to avoid misunderstandings! Get what I'm saying?

that's probably one of the insanest (can one say that word? ) things I've ever heard in my life and I've heard a lot of crazy shit in these wonderful 27 years.

I'm getting Q-man's vibe now. I'm just laughing at this. It's nuts!

tea and cake or death!!!

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #290 - December 30, 2009, 08:47 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:45 PM
If that is so then why the fuck am I expected to pay child support for that little spittle of liquid that leaves my cock? Why is there all the cultural backlash against the men who abandon their children? Its because that little spittle of liquid is my offspring and if she is allowed to kill it, so should I be. You're being a hypocrit and you know it

Okay then, argue against paternal rights. That's an arguable point. But we're not talking about child support, we're talking about reproductive rights of a woman. And on that, your position is indefensible.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #291 - December 30, 2009, 08:49 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:31 PM
One 30 min operation and that frickin kid which ruined their relationship and their lives would not have come into the world and they'd still be living happily together. And there are lots of men who are emotionally traumatized by abandoning their children. They may not show it but its there. At least I know for sure that I would be traumatized by it

Yes lots of men exist who have been traumatized by abortion, not more than women who've been abandoned. Your appeal to emotion is embarrassing. Not an argument. Im wondering if a woman aborted your baby once.

Theres that damn Wyclef Jean song: "They say two wrongs dont make it right, so baby if Im wrong I aint tryna fight..."

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #292 - December 30, 2009, 08:50 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:40 PM
Why don't you tell that to women? Tell them not to spread their legs if they don't want to abort the child if the father didn't want it! Or discuss it beforehand to avoid misunderstandings! Get what I'm saying?

Then discuss it beforehand! The current understanding is that she makes the end choice to do what she wants with her own body. There are no misunderstandings here as this is how it stands. If you want it different then discuss your fucking choice with the woman you intend to fuck because you are the one creating the misunderstanding here, not her because you are deviating from the norm, therefore it becomes your responsibility to tell your woman how you feel about abortion rights so she understands how the situation can turn out. It's that simple! Situation solved! Now go, discuss then fuck, and be merry.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #293 - December 30, 2009, 08:50 PM

Quote from: Tommy on December 30, 2009, 08:43 PM
Liberated are you Kope by any chance?

Judging by his posts, I would say he's the aborted butt-baby of kope and Tut.

fuck you
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #294 - December 30, 2009, 08:51 PM

Kope was fucking awesome, don't your dare talk bad about him!

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #295 - December 30, 2009, 08:54 PM

Quote from: Angel54 on December 30, 2009, 08:44 PM
It Does. Not. Matter how easy a medical procedure abortion is . AGAIN. APPEAL to CONSEQUENCES. To say an abortion is not as bad becasue its less risky is fucking EPIC FAIL. Illogical argument. if u used this arguemnt in an essay, youd get an F. simple as that. If a woman chooses to go thru an abortion the risks dont diminsh but she chose it, so its fine. Under no circumstances is it OK for you to decide what happens to someone else's body, if they are a competent person.

Abortion is less risky and less painful than a pregnancy and childbirth, any kid knows that. I saw my friend had an abortion once, she was in the clinic about 30-40 mins and she came out and walked to the car and drove home with me and she was physically fine afterwards. To say that physically abortion even comes close to the discomfort or risks of pregnancy and childbirth is laughable.

I gave you 2 solid grounds on which women would object to an abortion:

1) Physical discomfort/medical risks
2) Psychological attachment to the child

Physical discomfort & medical risks of abortion are much less than a pregnancy and childbirth.
And a woman's psychological attachment to the child is not more valuable than a man's attachment to his child during a pro-life man vs pro-abortion woman case. Simply owning her body does not give the woman the right to justify her psychological attachment to the child under the cloak of physical objection to abortion. If the men's feelings aren't counted when a child is aborted, the woman's 'feelings' shouldn't be counted if the man doesn't want the child as well.

Until you refute that point you have no argument.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #296 - December 30, 2009, 08:55 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:40 PM
Why don't you tell that to women? Tell them not to spread their legs if they don't want to abort the child if the father didn't want it! Or discuss it beforehand to avoid misunderstandings! Get what I'm saying?

Everyone is a slut. Unfortunaltely. Many women need to be told to keep their slutty legs together and many men need to be told to keep their slutty fucking dicks in their pants. Who's deny this? You say one on hand, "what, I shoudlnt have sex", and OTOH, "what about women?" Well then fine. Women don't have sex, then you go gay. Problem solved. You can't fucking say you have the right to have sex and an abortion and then tell the women she's a slut for having sex with you and loses the right to her body becasue you cant keep your dikc in your pants. And ppl arent rll bringin up women who cant keep it closed cuz were discussing MENZ rights, right? il faut bien ecouter, d'accord?

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #297 - December 30, 2009, 08:55 PM

Quote from: trumora on December 30, 2009, 08:45 PM
that's probably one of the insanest (can one say that word? ) things I've ever heard in my life and I've heard a lot of crazy shit in these wonderful 27 years.

I'm getting Q-man's vibe now. I'm just laughing at this. It's nuts!

Of course! Talking about men's rights is something so rarely done that its laughable! That says something!
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #298 - December 30, 2009, 08:59 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 30, 2009, 08:47 PM
Okay then, argue against paternal rights. That's an arguable point. But we're not talking about child support, we're talking about reproductive rights of a woman. And on that, your position is indefensible.

Its not indefensible. I have the rights to not have a little mini-me going around the world with my hair and my eyes and my nose. It may be indefensible right now but abortion for women was also indefensible 200 years ago. With time men will also get their rights.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #299 - December 30, 2009, 09:01 PM

Abortion is sick, weather done by a man or a woman! I am anti-abortion no-one has the right to terminate a living entity, because they made a mistake, lets worry about the rights of the innocent entity!

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