Men's right to abortions

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #450 - January 09, 2010, 01:32 AM

Quote from: King Tut on January 01, 2010, 12:07 AM
You are not supposed to take 'daraba' literally, it is supposed to read allegorically.

"To see a world in a grain of sand" is allegorical.

"If your wife *disobeys* you, hit her." is not fuckin' allegorical.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #451 - January 09, 2010, 10:33 AM

One of the key rules of understanding words of the Quran is to go to other places in the Quran to investigate the usage in other places. Daraba in other places in the Quran is to mean "set forth" or "sets up for you" or "makes known to you" - for example check this verse out:

13:17 - HE sends down water from the sky so that the valleys flow according to their measure and the flood bears on its surface swelling foam. And from that which they heat in the fire, seeking to make ornaments or utensils, comes out a foam similar to it. Thus does ALLAH illustrate truth and falsehood. Now, as to the foam it goes away as rubbish and perishes but as to that which benefits men, it stays in the earth. Thus does ALLAH set forth parables.

http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi? version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated& layout=auto& searchstring=013:017

In the past, some translators of this verse have mistakeningly used the word "beat" or "hit" or even "scourge" (as in the case of an old translation) to represent the word "daraba" in Arabic. This is not the opinion of all scholars especially Raghib and Zamakhshari.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #452 - January 09, 2010, 10:52 AM

First of all in my language which is derived from an ancient Arabic dialect, darab is associated with pain and hurt.

Il-vittma ndarab fl-isplużjoni.. The victim was hurt in the explosion,
ndarbu ħamsa, 5 wounded.

Secondly even if it were allegorical it still emphasizes patriarchal dominance in a symbolic way

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #453 - January 09, 2010, 10:57 AM

In my language, which is also derived from Arabic, when you say you are going to hit/smack someone, you say "darab". Odd how that is ey KT?

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #454 - January 09, 2010, 11:42 AM

Look I am just trying to be objective, I think it is a mistranslation. If you look at the actions of Mohammed, and how the Qu'ran is it is hard to think it would allow men to beat women. I just don't it is consistent.

Scourge, them is even verse then "hit" - I also don't accept the "light tap" argument either. for me personally the Qu'ran is simply saying to set forth, or make clear, or a proclamation. It seems like the most reasonable explanation.

Mo in the hadith says: "The most perfect believer in faith is one who is the best of them in good conduct. The best of you is one who treats best with his wife among you."

Moreover, the 2007 translation Sublime Quran by Laleh translates idribuhunna not as 'beat them' but as 'go away from them'. The introduction to her translation discusses the linguistic and sharia reasons in Arabic for understanding this verb in context.

The woman is not required to accept her husband's punishment, and the wife can divorce anytime. According to Dr Ahmad Shafaat see: http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Quran-4-34.htm Saharaaf's aqida is regarded as correct also. But mainly in the scholars echelons, normal average joe Muslims don't really know about him, and I doubt any know about him on this forum either. I came familiar with him through my friend who is doing Arabic studies.

More info on Dr Shafaart: http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Ahmad-Shafaat

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #455 - January 09, 2010, 12:01 PM

Quote from: King Tut on January 09, 2010, 11:42 AM

Mo in the hadith says: "The most perfect believer in faith is one who is the best of them in good conduct. The best of you is one who treats best with his wife among you."

Perhaps hitting one's wife was not such a big deal back then, so it was assessed as being fair. Why would Yusuf Ali and other Muslim translators add the word 'lightly' next to the translation? It seems unlikely that they they all had the same mistranslation. And when you take into account the fact that 'darab' is associated with wounds in many Arabic dialects as well as my language, the possibility that it was a mistranslation is even smaller.

In my language we have 'ħarab' which means he fled.... 'aħrab' is a command to flee, escape, that is the most similar word I can think of.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #456 - January 09, 2010, 12:06 PM

Quote from: ras111 on January 09, 2010, 12:01 PM

In my language we have 'ħarab' which means he fled.... 'aħrab' is a command to flee, escape, that is the most similar word I can think of.

Same as, to harab is to run away in morocco too.

Tut, why is the "best of you to his wives" not available in any sahih hadith collection?

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #457 - January 09, 2010, 12:22 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on January 09, 2010, 12:06 PM
Same as, to harab is to run away in morocco too.

I'll be honest, I cannot recall any form of historical connection that we might have with Morocco, but I think that it will amuse you to know that two of our towns are also called 'Rabat'

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #458 - January 09, 2010, 12:43 PM

Harab in Urdu means "bad" or "foul" and Urdu is also based on Arabic.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #459 - January 09, 2010, 12:52 PM

you mean 'kharraab' in urdu dont you?

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #460 - January 09, 2010, 12:55 PM

Yes. But we also say harab with a "hay" and not a "kahy" of the Arabic/Urdu alphabet.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #461 - January 09, 2010, 01:28 PM

Quote from: King Tut on January 09, 2010, 12:43 PM
Harab in Urdu means "bad" or "foul" and Urdu is also based on Arabic.

One slight problem though... yours seems to be an adjective, whereas mine is actually a verb. The word in the quran over there must definitely refer to some kind of action being taken.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #462 - January 09, 2010, 01:31 PM

Quote from: ras111 on January 09, 2010, 12:22 PM
I'll be honest, I cannot recall any form of historical connection that we might have with Morocco, but I think that it will amuse you to know that two of our towns are also called 'Rabat'

Been conquered by Islam?

The original dialect of morocco is amazigh, but that was banned from schools and workplaces for so long, it does sound much more different to Arabic though, than moroccan as it's spoken in the rest of morocco.

Arabic is the official language of the workplace and schools.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #463 - January 09, 2010, 01:38 PM

Ummm.....my stupid mouse pressed yes on accident. I have a laptop and it likes to click random stuff before i decide what to click.

All I can say is that from a male perspective, wear a condom.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #464 - January 09, 2010, 01:39 PM

Quote from: King Tut on January 09, 2010, 12:43 PM
Harab in Urdu means "bad" or "foul" and Urdu is also based on Arabic.

Actually Urdu is based on the Indian languages that Hindi is based on, it was "influenced" by arabic and uses its alphabet

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #465 - January 09, 2010, 01:42 PM

Yeah, I think Tut speaks a the Punjabi dialect of Urdu

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #466 - January 09, 2010, 04:45 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on January 09, 2010, 01:31 PM
Been conquered by Islam?

The original dialect of morocco is amazigh, but that was banned from schools and workplaces for so long, it does sound much more different to Arabic though, than moroccan as it's spoken in the rest of morocco.

Arabic is the official language of the workplace and schools.

The islands were under Arab rule for 200 years along with Sicily. The Normans came conquered them in 1091.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #467 - January 10, 2010, 01:07 AM

Quote from: King Tut on January 09, 2010, 12:43 PM
Harab in Urdu means "bad" or "foul" and Urdu is also based on Arabic.

This is a lie. Harab is not a word in urdu. As a native speaker of urdu I can testify that Harab is not used anywhere or that I'd understand its meaning if I saw it written anywhere. Kharaab is a word but not harab. And also Urdu is based more on perrsian than arabic.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #468 - January 10, 2010, 01:54 AM

Quote from: me
You can't force one on me. I already had one.

Best 200 bux I ever spent. No shit.

Quote from: liberated on December 31, 2009, 09:04 PM
Can you tell more about it please? What's the procedure, how long it takes to heal, whether there were any complications, etc?

Sure. Procedure is really simply. You get a local anaesthetic on your ball bag. The needle is actually the worst part of the whole thing and it's just a pinprick, just like getting a shot anywhere else. They don't skewer your nuts or anything like that.

Then they make a small incision in the aforementioned nutbag to expose the vas deferens (Google that if not sure) and do a snip on the tubes, then tie the ends off and put a couple on stitches in the initial incision. Takes about thirty minutes max from go to whoa. Doesn't hurt at all.

You have to take it easy for a week or two afterwards, which means no walking around a lot or running or lifting heavy stuff, but it shouldn't hurt unless you do something dumb. This is where blokes go wrong. Follow the doctor's advice. They mean it this time.

Of course I didn't entirely follow the doctor's advice because it simply wasn't possible for me due to where I lived (I had no choice but to do some walking and climb some steps) but I was very careful about how I chose not to follow it and was prepared to take full responsibility. Basically you walk very carefully for a while. It's not rocket science and is no worse than having a sprained ankle or whatever.

Quote from: IsLame on December 31, 2009, 09:07 PM
they stop the sperm from entering the seminal fluid by cauterizing the tube before it gets there. You still produce semen in the same way, it just get absorbed by the body instead..

Quote from: Tommy on December 31, 2009, 09:41 PM
I just threw up a little.

This is what happens naturally anyway. Any sperm that aren't ejaculated fairly quickly get reabsorbed by the body. No problem.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #469 - January 10, 2010, 09:50 AM

Quote from: King Tut on January 09, 2010, 11:42 AM
Look I am just trying to be objective, I think it is a mistranslation. If you look at the actions of Mohammed, and how the Qu'ran is it is hard to think it would allow men to beat women. I just don't it is consistent.

Scourge, them is even verse then "hit" - I also don't accept the "light tap" argument either. for me personally the Qu'ran is simply saying to set forth, or make clear, or a proclamation. It seems like the most reasonable explanation.

Mo in the hadith says: "The most perfect believer in faith is one who is the best of them in good conduct. The best of you is one who treats best with his wife among you."

Moreover, the 2007 translation Sublime Quran by Laleh translates idribuhunna not as 'beat them' but as 'go away from them'. The introduction to her translation discusses the linguistic and sharia reasons in Arabic for understanding this verb in context.

The woman is not required to accept her husband's punishment, and the wife can divorce anytime. According to Dr Ahmad Shafaat see: http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Quran-4-34.htm Saharaaf's aqida is regarded as correct also. But mainly in the scholars echelons, normal average joe Muslims don't really know about him, and I doubt any know about him on this forum either. I came familiar with him through my friend who is doing Arabic studies.

More info on Dr Shafaart: http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Ahmad-Shafaat

Still have to do this, jesus. where's Hassan when you need him :'(? Anyway, there is no mathalan in this verse.Dont know if its been said or not. To set forth a parable= daraba mathalan. where does it exist in 4 34?

Honeslty, Laleh Bakhtiar? have you not seen the threads on her? youre bringing up old shit thats been discussed time and time again. To mean 'to separate' it would have to be wadribu anhunna or something. Hopefully someone can correct me on that if Im wrong. reading articles about her, it seems she was specifically looking for an alternative to 'beat', not the objective truth. You shall find what you seek. Especially with such a malleable language. Bakhtiar gives no linguistic reasons in her intro. Only things like, ''the prophet never hit his wives''. Yes you were there, you`d know this for sure. People never had a problem with this shit until recently, unless you can provide a classical scholar who differed.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #470 - February 05, 2010, 10:56 AM

Who the hell said yes?!

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #471 - February 05, 2010, 12:23 PM

I wonder the same thing about incest, but hey man, whatever floats your boat.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #472 - February 05, 2010, 01:18 PM

You think what about incest? Sorry I don't see any possible connection....

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #473 - February 05, 2010, 01:20 PM

Jesus.

You said "who the hell said yes" to this thread. That is the connection.

Doesn't anybody have a sense of humour around here or what?

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #474 - February 05, 2010, 01:33 PM

Oh, right.

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Men's right to abortions
Reply #475 - October 11, 2014, 04:55 PM

For a second, I thought that this was one of mubs' threads.

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Men's right to abortions
Reply #476 - October 11, 2014, 05:01 PM

No
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Men's right to abortions
Reply #477 - October 11, 2014, 06:24 PM

This thread is fucking hysterical.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
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Men's right to abortions
Reply #478 - October 11, 2014, 06:31 PM

Quote from: Qtian on October 11, 2014, 04:55 PM
For a second, I thought that this was one of mubs' threads.

pffffff the patriarchy thread is his, right? Sorry mubs, not intending to diss you but maaaannnnn

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Men's right to abortions
Reply #479 - October 12, 2014, 11:30 AM

As a female, I say that nobody other than myself should have the right to decide whether or not I have an abortion. My position is based on morals and possible negative side effects of both the surgical and medicinal abortion methods.

Now, I do not believe men should have to be forced into being responsible for the child IF they used a form of birth control and they made it 100% clear that they did not want to have a child at the time of the Sex act and upon being informed of the resulting pregnancy. There should be legal paperwork where the man can take the woman to court and explain that he did use birth control and that once he was notified of the pregnancy had requested the woman abort the child as he had no intention of fathering and providing for the child. A judge should be able to rule that the male forfeits all legal rights and that it may not be reversed unless marriage between the bio mom and dad occurs and that reversal of the parental rights forfeiture will remain in effect even if the parties divorced.

There should always be an option for males that truly tried to have safe Sex with no intention of becoming a father. I do not believe that men should live I fear that having Sex may mean they aare potentially going to be forced into fatherhood in some effect. If a woman can chose before a certain point (most states up to 20 weeks) to not become a mother then a man should have the same options.

I also believe that men should have a say in whether or not a woman can abort in cases where the man wants the child but the woman doesn't. The financial burden of the prenatal care and birth should be his responsibility and the woman should file for parental right forfeiture so she doesn't have to be responsible for the child. This is in regards to consentual Sex only.
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