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 Topic: Some questions about evolution

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #30 - December 30, 2009, 05:04 PM

    Quote
    Its random, so it didnt 'know' - the process took place over billions of years.  These mutations just happened to live longer thats all.  If you havent watch this already, then I highly recommend it..


    I understand natural selection, i.e the mutations which helped the species adapt to their enviornment bred more and hence those species survived while the ones with the un-helpful mutations died out.

    However, do we have any fossils showing some non-successful random mutations, like a deformed hand or a deformed skull, a deformed eye or deformed wings, etc which indicates that non-successful mutations also occurred on the course of making the correct wings/eyes/hands etc?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #31 - December 30, 2009, 05:25 PM

    99% of mutations are too small to detect or would not be preserved anyway unless they affected the bones.  We know it happens in any case as see some mutations on a day to day level e.g. people have six fingers/six toes etc

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #32 - December 30, 2009, 06:38 PM

    Thanks baal and abuk, you cleared up a lot of things, but there're a few things I'm still unclear about.

    How did the first ever creature / cell learn to develop a skin, a heart, liver, etc and other body organs? What I mean is, all the organs of the animals were at one time not present in any animal, and they were created over time.

    The first ever creature cell did not learn to develop skin/organs. The First cell only learned to symbiote with other cells/specialize. Let's take the eye as en example, the very first eye, which some animals still have, was only good for detecting light/dark condition. Later creatures performed better when their eye/organ would perform better. It helped that the smaller creatures are 'cheaper' to produce, as in, their lifespan is pretty small and they produce in large numbers.

    As for mutations. The term is used to describe several phenomenons. In One phenomenon, certain trait is emphasized or reduced. In another, a recessif genes awaken, an extreme example is this guy that awakened, the 13-knuckles dinosaur tail in a chicken. In another One, a completely new change occurs in the DNA. Something new to the specie that the parents did not possess (did I mention that it *is* a mutation). Every person possess various forms of mutation. It is quite rare actually for an organism to not possess any mutation. It is almost like, a person that does not possess any mutations, is a mutant. Some mutations have been observed to be caused by a virus, it is estimated 8% of our genome was caused by virus.

    In all situations, the mutation is random, but natural selection will help decide if the mutation is beneficial or not.

    Secondly, I'm still finding it a bit hard to swallow that random mutations will be so consistently successful over a period of years to bring about a change which will result in a full body organ?

    True. Random mutations are not consistently successful. Many cause death and disability. Many will go unused and unnoticed. Some mutations, will be later used by other mutations. Very few, are the mutations that would lead to a benefit, and even some that will be harmful but still make it while riding on other beneficial traits.

    3rd, Baal mentioned that if a fish are left to live near some stones, overtime they might develop big dots or bony ridges to mimic the stones. Was that a random mutation to the fish's DNA or did the fish 'know' that it should develop those traits? In which case the mutation won't be so random, would it?

    In the case of changing the size of the dots, the fish required very little change in its DNA. Almost every fish litter would possess a range of Dot size. The fish that did not adapt its skin was predated upon more frequently, its brothers/sisters survived more. Kind of like rolling dice. You are guaranteed to get a '6' eventually.

    In the case of bony ridges, a bony ridge requires a lot of changes in the DNA. Steps so to speak. Gene A + B + C all have to be found mutated within the same fish. That will happen a lot less frequently, so unlikely is it, that we might never find a fish with bony ridges in million years. or we might find it in 1000 years. Kind of like playing the lottery.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #33 - December 30, 2009, 06:39 PM

    I am no expert, but I think of it this way.
    The first time it was something random. The dots weren't exactly there to mimic stones, they just happened to one of possibly millions of that species. That fish had more chance at survival because predators didn't notice it. Over time the dotted fish had become the dominant variant of the species because it kept passing that trait and the off-springs were more numerous as they were attacked less often.


    The change in dot size, was observed to occur in less then 25 years. I will post the experiment after i find it.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #34 - December 30, 2009, 06:54 PM

    I heard about the example of some italian lizards who were left on an island, and in some time (can't remember how long) they developed a more effective system in their stomachs for digesting the vegetation of the island.

    I'm wondering how it was that the lizards knew that they should develop this system on the new island? For example, consider the amounts of mutations that could occur in that species. They could grow bigger eyes, longer tails, an extra leg, etc, a lot of mutations which would be useless to the species. However, the only mutation that occured in the lizards was that of their stomachs evolving to digest the food better.

    Also, the mutation didn't occur in the species while they were in their old environment in Italy, it only occurred on the new island when the better evolved stomach system will help them digest the food better...

    This leaves me wondering if the lizard somehow 'knows' what mutation should occur to make it more adaptable, the chances of all these mutations such as eyes, wings, arms, etc being 'random' and continuing to improve through random mutations seem too low to me.. perhaps there is another force of evolution which dictates that some mutations which increase the species' survival have to occur and its not completely random.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #35 - December 30, 2009, 06:58 PM

    have you not read/ or even tried to bother understanding anything that anyone has written?

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #36 - December 30, 2009, 07:10 PM

    Quote
    Have you not read/ or even tried to bother understanding anything that anyone has written?


    I'm not arguing, I'm just asking questions to clarify stuff. Asking questions is allowed here right? No need to bring stuff from the other threads here Smiley
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #37 - December 30, 2009, 07:41 PM

    I'm not, but now you mention it I am finding the same cycle is being repeated here.  

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #38 - December 30, 2009, 07:48 PM

    I'm not disagreeing with anything that was said, I'm just asking if the mutations are really random or if there's another evolution principle that I don't know about. *sigh* Forget it
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #39 - December 30, 2009, 08:13 PM

    All mutations are random, there is no evidence (AFAIK) of mutations being initiated to benefit a particular feature. What there is evidence of however, is mutations being selected due to their being advantageous to the organism.

    eg the gene for sickle cell anaemia is thoroughly disadvantageous in northern europe and is extremely rare in european indigenous people. Whereas in africa it has survived and spread as carriers of this gene have better resistance to malaria.

    Humans in africa did not "know" that the gene was better in that environment and then choose to reproduce it. Rather it was that in areas where  malaria was the highest cause of mortality, those that had the sickle cell gene had a better chance of surviving into reproductive adulthood than those that didn't. Hence the gene was spread. Those that didnt have it often died before they could produce offspring.

    Hope this makes sense and helps.

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #40 - December 30, 2009, 09:33 PM

    Quote
    But assuming that the example is true, how does evolution know that the skin pigment should be darkened?
    If a person stays out in the sun and gets darker, does this info actually spread to the DNA of the person so when he has sex, this darker-skin DNA is passed on to his children?


    Individuals don't evolve - only the species evolve.

    How does species know to darken the skin?

    Easy.

    Sexual Reproduction always produces varients in a species - this is nothing to do with mutations. This is normal shuffling of genes between parents and the offspring.

    What that means is that in given population the skin colour will vary in each the individual in the population.

    Now if Dark skin colour was to offer a slight advantage for the individual to survive in an environment then individuals with Dark Skin colour will reproduce more. Over many generations the Dark Skin colour will predominate in the populations.

    See there is no conscious decision to change the skin colour. Natural Selection thus weeded out other colours from the species.






















    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #41 - December 30, 2009, 09:52 PM

    Thanks guys Smiley

    But one thing I remain unclear about is why some species evolve only when put under a different environment? For example those lizards I spoke about, were put on an island and there they evolved a different system for digesting the food than their counterparts back in their original country who still had their old stomachs. Isn't it evidence that the lizards somehow responded to their environment and evolved rather than it being random?

    Here's a link to the article about the lizard evolution for reference:
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution_2.html
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #42 - December 30, 2009, 09:58 PM

    remember what the chance of winning the lottery is, but people still win it.  It sounds like a 1 in a million chance, which it probably is - not surprising considering there have been billions of species living over billions of years - hence this type of stuff, amazing that it is, must of happened millions of times and over at these odds..

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #43 - December 30, 2009, 10:06 PM

    Quote
    But one thing I remain unclear about is why some species evolve only when put under a different environment?


    Because each environment puts different selection pressure on the species.


    Quote
    For example those lizards I spoke about, were put on an island and there they evolved a different system for digesting the food than their counterparts back in their original country who still had their old stomachs. Isn't it evidence that the lizards somehow responded to their environment and evolved rather than it being random?


    Yes. Again it's not a conscious decision.

    As I said sexual reproduction creates varients. Some of these varients will not be able to digest food on the new country but some will ...very few...those will have the advantage of surviving and hence it is those that will dominate the species over many generations.







    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #44 - December 30, 2009, 10:41 PM

    Thanks for clarifying. I'm still a bit skeptic about whether or not those mutations are completely random or in a response to their new environment, but I understand things a bit better now Smiley
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #45 - December 31, 2009, 07:36 AM

    Mutations are random. Selection depends on environment.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #46 - December 31, 2009, 04:54 PM

    Thanks for clarifying. I'm still a bit skeptic about whether or not those mutations are completely random or in a response to their new environment, but I understand things a bit better now Smiley

    In Russia in the 50's they wanted to distancec themselves from western science and come up with their own variations. They adopted the view of a guy named Lysenko. Who argued that, mutations, is not random. That mutation is intelligent. In good old Soviet bureaucracy, not just they adopted his view, they even purged their labs from anyone who disagreed with Lysenko.

    For 20yrs the Soviet spent millions and countless hours applying Lysenko's technicques and researching his method until they A: Destroyed their crops, B: Became hungry.

    Of course, rather then accept that Lysenko was just a scientist going on a theory. The Soviet decided to label him as a fraud rather then take the blame for having destroyed their own Science/Scientists/Crops.

    Here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko

    Now, I am not saying that what Lysenko said is wrong, only that Lysenko failed to prove his point with the resources of a super-power behind him for 20 years. If you think mutation is intelligent, then prove it. Put it in a white paper and prove it. If you can not prove it, then find someone who did. Find someone who proved that mutation is intelligent. If you can not find the proof that mutation is intelligent, then anyone who claims to you that mutation is intelligent, then they can go fvck themselves. Tell them to put the proof forward or shut the fuck up.

    As it stands, if we put forward what the koran/bible tells us, then we will go hungry and destroy our breeds. So please, keep those Two books away from our crops and our animals and our babies. Leave them in the church/mosque. Unless of course you have a proof that they work.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #47 - December 31, 2009, 05:00 PM

    Here is a link about lamarckism, the driving force behind Lysenko.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism

    From the wiki:


    Examples of what is traditionally called "Lamarckism" would include:

    Giraffes stretching their necks to reach leaves high in trees (especially Acacias), strengthen and gradually lengthen their necks. These giraffes have offspring with slightly longer necks (also known as "soft inheritance").

    A blacksmith, through his work, strengthens the muscles in his arms. His sons will have similar muscular development when they mature.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #48 - December 31, 2009, 05:28 PM

    Quote
    Examples of what is traditionally called "Lamarckism" would include:

    Giraffes stretching their necks to reach leaves high in trees (especially Acacias), strengthen and gradually lengthen their necks. These giraffes have offspring with slightly longer necks (also known as "soft inheritance").

    A blacksmith, through his work, strengthens the muscles in his arms. His sons will have similar muscular development when they mature.


    Yes, this is the kind of thing I was talking about. Consider also that before the time of Lucy it is considered that africa was covered with rainforests, and the best way of moving for the apes was swinging from branches or moving on all fours. But later on changes in the geography caused a vast amount of the rainforests to be cleared, and created a lot of land/savannahs where it was more effective for the apes to walk on 2 feet, and this trait was passed on to their future generations and to many species of apes since, i.e humans, homo erectus, habilis, etc.

    What are your thoughts about that hypothesis?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #49 - December 31, 2009, 05:40 PM

    My thoughts? Fvck my thoughts. You should ask what is my proof. What are my white papers. Where is your proof. Where are your white papers?

    The link I gave you about Lamarckism, is about a theory that was proven wrong. Read the link before you open your mouth spreading wrong knowledge. We actually ran the experiments in the lab and discovered that Lamarckism does not occur.

    There was no intelligence in the mutation. The creature, failed to pass its acquired knowledge and physical exercise, through its DNA.

    The giraffe can live its entire life, with its neck artificially stretched. Another giraffe can have a relaxed neck, neither of the Two giraffes will have a better chance of growing longer necks for their off-spring.

    The son of a carpenter does not have a chance for growing a stronger right arm just because his dad used his right arm a lot.

    The universe could have been different, perhaps a creature can develop a way to pass learned traits to its off-spring, but until today, no such creature and no such mechanism had been found.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #50 - December 31, 2009, 05:47 PM

    The universe could have been different, perhaps a creature can develop a way to pass learned traits to its off-spring, but until today, no such creature and no such mechanism had been found.


    Culture Wink
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #51 - December 31, 2009, 05:53 PM

    Question.

    The east-asian people (chinese, japanese, koreans, etc) have slanted eyes because it is said that because for a long time they lived in a very windy and cold environment, the eye evolved a tissue/layer to protect itself from the cold winds and it is the reason why asian people still have slanted eyes.

    Do you think this mutation was also random? Have there been any randomly slanted eyed people in any other nation without a distant relative having slanted eyes?

    Also, how did having slanted eyes help the first people who had this mutation to breed more successfully, so successfully that they overran the entire population of non-slanted eyed folks? Its a minor change in the physiology, it may let them have a better eye sight but the age at which the men/women would become infertile remains the same.

    Thoughts?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #52 - December 31, 2009, 05:58 PM

    Liberated - How much have you read on the subject? The question is in no way trying to be intimidating. I initially found the concept of natural selection rather confusing and kept falling into the error of thinking of it as some guiding force with intent and purpose. I would focus on reading more about it, the basics are pretty much the same. If you don't understand, just go over the material again. There is no harm or shame if you have not clearly understood.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #53 - December 31, 2009, 05:59 PM

    Question.

    The east-asian people (chinese, japanese, koreans, etc) have slanted eyes because it is said that because for a long time they lived in a very windy and cold environment, the eye evolved a tissue/layer to protect itself from the cold winds and it is the reason why asian people still have slanted eyes.


    That's a hypothesis, it's not even close to determined why many of our racial features exist. There are theories ranging from natural adaptation to sexual selection.

    Quote
    Do you think this mutation was also random? Have there been any randomly slanted eyed people in any other nation without a distant relative having slanted eyes?


    How on earth is anybody but a dedicated researcher in this subject area supposed to answer this?
    Quote
    Also, how did having slanted eyes help the first people who had this mutation to breed more successfully? Its a minor change in the physiology, it may let them have a better eye sight but the age at which the men/women would become infertile remains the same.


    Who says it did?


    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #54 - December 31, 2009, 06:05 PM

    Liberated - you need to get over your obsessive sense of purpose & direction -  if it helps build your personal sense of worth then so be it, but according to scientists its all in your head.  Sometimes random events unfold, we exist, then shit happens and we dont.  Simple as that.

    I recommend you watching this BBC series, am sure if you watch it, then you wont be asking questions like the one you just did.  It goes into the issue of oriental features too, and might help you in understanding the humbling phenomena of natural selection..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dJs8iEsBlE

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #55 - December 31, 2009, 06:06 PM

    Liberated - How much have you read on the subject? The question is in no way trying to be intimidating. I initially found the concept of natural selection rather confusing and kept falling into the error of thinking of it as some guiding force with intent and purpose. I would focus on reading more about it, the basics are pretty much the same. If you don't understand, just go over the material again. There is no harm or shame if you have not clearly understood.


    Yes, that's what I'm trying to do, you learn by making your questions known so if you're wrong people can correct you on it, right? Smiley

    Quote
    Quote
    Do you think this mutation was also random? Have there been any randomly slanted eyed people in any other nation without a distant relative having slanted eyes?

    How on earth is anybody but a dedicated researcher in this subject area supposed to answer this?

    If this isn't known then how can the mutations be classified as random, what is the evidence for it being random?

    Quote
    Quote
    Also, how did having slanted eyes help the first people who had this mutation to breed more successfully? Its a minor change in the physiology, it may let them have a better eye sight but the age at which the men/women would become infertile remains the same.

    Who says it did?

    That's what natural selection is, isn't it? A trait gives you an advantage which leads to you breeding more successfully than others from your species who don't have this trait and overtime your offspring with that trait overrun those who don't have the trait.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #56 - December 31, 2009, 06:08 PM

    This leaves me wondering if the lizard somehow 'knows' what mutation should occur to make it more adaptable, the chances of all these mutations such as eyes, wings, arms, etc being 'random' and continuing to improve through random mutations seem too low to me.. perhaps there is another force of evolution which dictates that some mutations which increase the species' survival have to occur and its not completely random.


    No. Mutations are completely random. It is just that only those that are somehow helpful in the current environment will live on. Then all these small helpful mutations add up to make a big improvement.

    Imagine the following experiment:

    We take a million people and put them through a series of experiments. At each stage, every person has to role a dice. In the first experiment, all people rolling a 5 survive, all others are killed. In the second experiment, all people rolling a 2 survive, all others are killed. In the third experiment, all people rolling a 1 survive, all others are killed. In the fourth experiment, all people rolling a 5 survive, all others are killed. In the fifth experiment, all people rolling a 1 survive, all others are killed. In the sixth and last experiment, all people rolling a 6 survive, all others are killed.

    After that, you have probably around 30,000 people left of the originally one million. All of those people have rolled the sequence 5-2-1-5-1-6. You can now ask. How did those people know they had to role this special sequence? Their dices cannot have been random dices, because how else would the dices know what number to role?

    But this is the wrong way of approaching this. The 30,000 people remaining were just lucky. There are 970,000 people that were unlucky. They rolled the wrong numbers, so they are dead now.

    It is the same with mutations: There is lots of different mutations. You don't see many people around with harmful mutations because the mutations being harmful means they won't live or won't have so many children. So, these mutations don't survive, while the beneficial (or neutral) mutations survive.

    Not let's return to the lizard species that adopted to be able to eat a certain kind of plant. You may ask: Why did the other lizards on the continent not also evolve this ability? Certainly, this ability is not harmful. All these mutations are not harmful, because they help the lizards on the island to survive. But this thinking is wrong, because you cannot judge whether a mutation is harmful or helpful without considering the environment.

    The mutations that lead to the lizards being able to eat that special plant probably are harmful in a normal environment where other plants are there to eat. How are they harmful? They probably mean that the lizard body has a feature that costs energy.

    In a normal environment, the ability to eat the special plant (when the plant is not there) is a disadvantage because it means wasting energy on a feature you never need. In an environment, where the plant is present (and especially when there are few other edible plants), the ability to eat that plant is an advantage. So in the latter environment, such mutations would survive, in the former environment, such mutations would not survive.

    Now you could again ask: How do the lizards on the continent know that evolving such a feature would be a waste of resources? And again, they don't know that. It is just that animals wasting resources have a higher chance of starving than animals not wasting resources. So, if there are any animals that evolve mutations towards being able to eat that special plant in an environment where that plant doesn't grow, when the next time of few resources comes along, they will probably be the first ones to starve, i.e. they will over a long period of time not have many surviving offspring.



  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #57 - December 31, 2009, 06:09 PM

    Liberated - you need to get over your obsessive sense of purpose & direction -  if it helps build your personal sense of worth then so be it, but according to scientists its all in your head.  Sometimes random events unfold, we exist, then shit happens and we dont.  Simple as that.

    Why can't we have an objective discussion about a scientific idea without it somehow being personally about me? Please..

    I will watch the documentary that you recommended.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #58 - December 31, 2009, 06:12 PM

    That's what natural selection is, isn't it? A trait gives you an advantage which leads to you breeding more successfully than others from your species who don't have this trait and overtime your offspring with that trait overrun those who don't have the trait.


    Natural selection is not the only determinant of human traits. There is also sexual selection. Sometimes a population may favor a certain trait and sexually reproduce it more than others.

    And not all traits necessarily give you an advantage and may exist as a side effect of some other trait that was naturally selected. Traits like blue eyes and blonde hair have no known benefits and may have arisen out of some side effect and then later sexually selected due to it's aesthetic desirability.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #59 - December 31, 2009, 06:19 PM

    After that, you have probably around 30,000 people left of the originally one million. All of those people have rolled the sequence 5-2-1-5-1-6. You can now ask. How did those people know they had to role this special sequence? Their dices cannot have been random dices, because how else


    I understand the logic behind this, but I would only believe that those 30,000 were just lucky if I can also see the corpses of the remaining 970,000 people who were unlucky. Do we have enough fossil evidence which shows the vastly great number of unsuccessful genetic mutations?

    Consider also that any feature like the wing for example, is developed over a series of progressive iterations, right? If any step along the iterations is done incorrectly, then the wing is not formed. Is there fossil evidence indicating such mutations where one of the steps was done incorrectly and resulted in a deformed or useless wing?

    You may ask: Why did the other lizards on the continent not also evolve this ability? Certainly, this ability is not harmful. All these mutations are not harmful, because they help the lizards on the island to survive. But this thinking is wrong, because you cannot judge whether a mutation is harmful or helpful without
    considering the environment.


    Actually, it leaves me asking whether the lizards in Italy developed the mutation for digesting vegetation at all, or did it only occur in the lizards on the island & hence was a result of adaptation to the island's diet.
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