Some questions about evolution

Previous page 1 2 3 45 6 ... 13 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #90 - January 01, 2010, 05:16 PM

Quote
Okay. I confess. It's me. I am responsible for all the beneficial mutations.

so are you jesus or allah or one of the hindu gods?
- Saif Rahman
- Ex-Muslim
- Je suis Haram
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #91 - January 01, 2010, 05:36 PM

Quote from: liberated on January 01, 2010, 02:49 PM
In the presence of those facts I think the mutations can be random. It does make one wonder though if there's a higher power behind all the successful mutations or if they're really random. .

And who do you hold accountable for the 99.99% of unsuccessful mutations?

My Book
My Blog
- NineBerry
- Tame Wolf
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #92 - January 01, 2010, 05:55 PM

Quote from: liberated on January 01, 2010, 05:16 PM
so are you jesus or allah or one of the hindu gods?

I am the Flying Kebab Monster.

bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
- Rubaiyat
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #93 - January 01, 2010, 06:40 PM

Quote from: liberated on January 01, 2010, 02:49 PM
In the presence of those facts I think the mutations can be random. It does make one wonder though if there's a higher power behind all the successful mutations or if they're really random. .

What is mutations?

Mutations are the errors in the DNA copy process.

Organisms have built in error corrections to minimize such mutations in their DNA because there is no "Good" or "Bad" mutations.

A mutations is deemed "Good" if it allows the organism to survive better in a particular environment.

Move the organism to a different environment and the mutations will not help it to survive.

Yes. Mutations are random in the sense that we cant predict which mutations will occur. But in another sense it is not random because not all mutations occur with equal probability.

Mutations is one of the way variance is added to the species genome. But there are other ways variations can be had. For example virus insert themselves into cells of other organism. Gene's can be added to the host genome in this way. In the early evolution from unicellular to multi-cellular this mechanism would have been more common.

So there is no good or bad mutations.

And it is not guided.

Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #94 - January 01, 2010, 06:44 PM

but where is your proof proof proof proof?
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #95 - January 01, 2010, 06:46 PM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on January 01, 2010, 06:40 PM
So there is no good or bad mutations.

And it is not guided.

[/quote]
what precisely do you mean?
- Rubaiyat
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #96 - January 01, 2010, 06:51 PM

proof of what?

Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #97 - January 01, 2010, 06:52 PM

of your belief
- Rubaiyat
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #98 - January 01, 2010, 06:54 PM

Quote
of your belief

I don't have beliefs.

Science is not a belief system.

Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #99 - January 01, 2010, 06:57 PM

oh ok
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #100 - January 01, 2010, 06:58 PM

sorry i must have missed the bit where you demonstrated that "it (evolution) is not guided"
- Rubaiyat
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #101 - January 01, 2010, 07:07 PM

Quote
sorry i must have missed the bit where you demonstrated that "it (evolution) is not guided"

What demonstration would you like?

Laboratory demonstration perhaps?

Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #102 - January 01, 2010, 07:09 PM

what proof do you have?
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #103 - January 01, 2010, 07:22 PM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on January 01, 2010, 06:40 PM

What is mutations?

Mutations are the errors in the DNA copy process.

Organisms have built in error corrections to minimize such mutations in their DNA because there is no "Good" or "Bad" mutations.

A mutations is deemed "Good" if it allows the organism to survive better in a particular environment.

Move the organism to a different environment and the mutations will not help it to survive.

Yes. Mutations are random in the sense that we cant predict which mutations will occur. But in another sense it is not random because not all mutations occur with equal probability.

Mutations is one of the way variance is added to the species genome. But there are other ways variations can be had. For example virus insert themselves into cells of other organism. Gene's can be added to the host genome in this way. In the early evolution from unicellular to multi-cellular this mechanism would have been more common.

So there is no good or bad mutations.

And it is not guided.

I agree with the points you raise but the fact that a tremendous number of mutations have to go right even for the simplest structure to be developed leaves some doubt in any rational person's mind as to whether those mutations are just random or guided. Doubt is not a bad thing and I'm not saying conclusively 100% that they're guided, I'm just keeping an open mind.

Quote
but where is your proof proof proof proof?

Please go away
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #104 - January 01, 2010, 07:25 PM

open mind....go away...hmmmm
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #105 - January 01, 2010, 07:27 PM

so rubaiyat, Liberated accepts it could be and could not be but when it challenges his beliefs prefers to put his fingers in his ears. Do you have any proof one way or the other?
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #106 - January 01, 2010, 07:29 PM

I said go away because you sounded very childish. The explanation that Rubaiyat gave in the message that I quoted is enough to give proof that the mutations CAN very well be random. If you ignore that and ask for proof proof proof it makes it sound like you'll ignore any evidence she'll give
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #107 - January 01, 2010, 07:32 PM

no one disputed randomness I was asking her to prove her statement that it was proven that there is no guidance behind evolution random or not. The Proof proof proof was an in joke between rubaiyat and me. Sorry if it sounded childish it was her words from a previous conversation
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #108 - January 01, 2010, 07:37 PM

All right. In that case yea, if there's any conclusive proof that the mutations cannot be guided then I'd like to see it too.

Sorry if I was rude:)
- Cheetah
- Global Moderator
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #109 - January 01, 2010, 07:43 PM

Two questions...

1) What kind of proof do you expect to find for a negative?

2) Are you asking for proof against the existence of some kind of supernatural guidance? If so, forget it. Science deals purely with the natural world, what you're asking for lies completely outside its remit.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #110 - January 01, 2010, 07:50 PM

Quote
1) What kind of proof do you expect to find for a negative?

lightrays can answer that, he/she was asking for the proof, I was just joining in to say that if any such proof exists I'd like to see it too , thats all

Quote
2) Are you asking for proof against the existence of some kind of supernatural guidance? If so, forget it. Science deals purely with the natural world, what you're asking for lies completely outside its remit.

I agree with you 100% - for the purpose of science its a good idea to call them random until/unless we have a naturalistic definition of a higher power which we may get one day if it exists.

But that doesn't mean that in my personal life I can not ask myself whether those mutations may be guided. Science doesn't mean I have to close my mind to all possibilities not explained by present day science. What is considered supernatural today may be considered natural 1000 years from now.
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #111 - January 01, 2010, 07:52 PM

Well perhaps you will permit me to reformulate as a 'question about evolution'. Does the theory of evolution in any way prove or disprove atheistic or theistic beliefs?
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #112 - January 01, 2010, 07:55 PM

lightrays, the theory of evolution is a biological theory and it proves the concept of adam/eve story in the abrahmic religions as false. It does not have anything to do with god, in fact i don't think anything in science proves/disproves god.
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #113 - January 01, 2010, 07:57 PM

I would agree with you on that
- Cheetah
- Global Moderator
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #114 - January 01, 2010, 07:58 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 01, 2010, 07:52 PM
Well perhaps you will permit me to reformulate as a 'question about evolution'. Does the theory of evolution in any way prove or disprove atheistic or theistic beliefs?

No it does not. That's why there are plenty of succesful, brilliant biologists who suscribe to Theistically Guided Evolution - eg, Kenneth Miller. Evolution disproves the traditional, literalist reading of Abrahamic creation stories, it does not, and has never aimed to, disprove God.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #115 - January 01, 2010, 08:01 PM

So when Rubaiyat says science 'is not guided' she is stating a belief not a fact
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #116 - January 01, 2010, 08:02 PM

Quote
That's why there are plenty of succesful, brilliant biologists who suscribe to Theistically Guided Evolution - eg, Kenneth Miller.

Ken miller is a theist??
- lightrays
- Member
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #117 - January 01, 2010, 08:03 PM

is a common mistake atheists make when they conflate facts with their personal beliefs
- NineBerry
- Tame Wolf
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #118 - January 01, 2010, 08:04 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 01, 2010, 08:01 PM
So when Rubaiyat says science 'is not guided' she is stating a belief not a fact

No. It is clear that evolution is not guided towards a certain aim.

bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Some questions about evolution
Reply #119 - January 01, 2010, 08:05 PM

Quote
So when Rubaiyat says science 'is not guided' she is stating a belief not a fact

She didn't say science is not guided, she said that the mutations of DNA that occur during evolution are not guided. Unless she has any real evidence that disproves the possibility that those mutations may have been guided then yes, she is stating a belief/opinion and not a fact.

However a lot of things such as humans evolving from primates, all living things having a common ancestor, the biblica/quranic story of god creating eve from adam's rib and populating the earth in 6 days, being false, etc, and other things which atheists/agnostcs believe in are a fact.
Previous page 1 2 3 45 6 ... 13 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »