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 Topic: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett

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  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #60 - January 04, 2010, 10:48 AM
    ya see, I dont follow exactly, that just sounds like clap trap to me.
    Can you be more specific  


    example, what would adding sharia courts provide that is not already provided
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #61 - January 04, 2010, 10:51 AM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 10:45 AM
    For instance in agreeing specific models of economic activity.


    You mean making a private contract? What is stopping you currently from making a private contract?
    Or do you mean something else? I dont follow.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #62 - January 04, 2010, 10:57 AM
    In one sense you are correct it would not add much.  Forms of alternative dispute resolution already exist.  Also legal contracts can be drawn up by any parties and notarised, it would not mean much of a change to instead have them ratified by a court. 
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #63 - January 04, 2010, 11:03 AM
    So what is the point? It would create a pointless sectarian parallel judicial system, that would be ripe for abuse (ie. nosing into criminal matters and acting above its authority or in opposition to British law).
    There is no real benefit, while at the same time there is much room to create problems. At the same time it adds to tribalism and sectarianism within British Society, which is something they are trying to do away with.

    That is the reason people are against sharia courts.
    The argument is not so much Sharia is Bad, but that there should be one legal system for all citizens.
    The merits of sharia law would need to be discussed in the context of British society as a whole, not as a parallel one.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #64 - January 04, 2010, 11:13 AM
    But thats a silly argument.  In fact it is not one jurists are calling for.  The current court system is not regarded as the best place for many cases, particularly civil ones.  Already over 90% of civil cases are settled out of court.  Current alternative dispute resolution procedures syphon of some cases before that but the legal system is pushing for these avenues to be expanded and to hopefully take up many of such cases.  Current law provides for seperate, arbitration and mediation systems.  These will permit a wide variety of groups in civil society to establish arbitration and mediation systems and assist in reducing the burden on the higher courts.  To me this is a mark of a vibrant legal code.  The one law for all mantra is only recited by narrow minded bigots (even if they dont see it themselves), for as you said it is not doing anything that the current legal system is not already moving towards and it provides avenues for decentralisation and empowerment within the legal system.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #65 - January 04, 2010, 11:15 AM
    Quote
    The one law for all mantra is only recited by narrow minded bigots (even if they dont see it themselves)


    You calling me a narrow minded bigot? Are you sure you want to take the kiddy gloves off?
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #66 - January 04, 2010, 11:21 AM
    Considered responses by atheists
    Quote
    Wow Lightrays said "Sharia is fine". What a fucking idiot. Bravo, dickweed.
    If you want to live under sharia then I invite you to go... what's stopping you.
    He's never going to answer. lightrays probably is....The most intellectually bankrupt and dodgy characters in existence.
    or in lightrays case are slimey toads that when captured, slip out of your hands and run off
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #67 - January 04, 2010, 11:22 AM
    Quote from: Homer on January 04, 2010, 11:15 AM
    You calling me a narrow minded bigot? Are you sure you want to take the kiddy gloves off?


    No you didnt state a position I was saying that it is narrow minded to call for one law in a robotic fashion in the light of the comments I made.  Would you not agree?
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #68 - January 04, 2010, 11:28 AM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 10:42 AM
    Or are we all as ridiculous as Ras claiming that merely by voicing a desire for that I have no right to remain in my own country and should move to another country and another race, culture language.  Thank God such as him cannot yet decide so unilaterlally to remove my birthrights and those that my parents fought for.


    Your parents and many other people who fought in WW2 fought for freedom and to preserve the traditional values of British society not those of backward desert kingdoms.  Your parents went to the UK because the values of UK society were not those of sharia, which is why UK society was advanced.  Show some respect for them. 
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #69 - January 04, 2010, 11:31 AM
    quote
      Your parents went to the UK because the values of UK society were not those of sharia, which is why UK society was advanced.  Show some respect for them.
    end quote

    Dear Ras, does your shame have no bounds.  Or do you really know my family history and the level of my respect for my parents and Grandparents (who did the fighting).  If you have no argument please dont simply post abuse it demeans your humanity
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #70 - January 04, 2010, 11:32 AM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 11:13 AM
     The one law for all mantra is only recited by narrow minded bigots (even if they dont see it themselves), for as you said it is not doing anything that the current legal system is not already moving towards and it provides avenues for decentralisation and empowerment within the legal system.


    The one law for all is how a proper society functions as everybody is equal.  It brings about balkanisation not decentralisation.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #71 - January 04, 2010, 11:35 AM
    I dont agree, because I firmly believe that there should be One Law for All, and that Religious Courts have no place in a secular society. Not to mention that so far, they have been known to constantly overstep their bounds, esp into criminal matters, such as domestic violence.
    And on top of it all, It creates pointless sectarian tribalism.

    Keep in mind, arbitration mediation still has to be in line with the law. Arbitration mediators are not above the law. Now, since what you are describing, arbitration dispute resolution that does not pass verdicts that are unlawful, already exist.....what are you (or the 'jurists') actually calling for?
    Thats the part I cant wrap my head around. As far as I can tell they want more power, beyond simple arbitration. Else, there is simply nothing to 'call for'.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #72 - January 04, 2010, 11:35 AM
    Dear Ras  One law is a slogan.  Any mature legal tradition has complex avenues to obtain rights.  We are discussing that.  re read my post if you need to.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #73 - January 04, 2010, 11:36 AM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 11:31 AM
    Dear Ras, does your shame have no bounds.  Or do you really know my family history and the level of my respect for my parents and Grandparents (who did the fighting).  If you have no argument please dont simply post abuse it demeans your humanity


    Dear Lightrays you are a cunt.  The UK progressed because it does not have sharia, that it is why it was an advanced society.  That is why many people fleed to it from sharia.  You should be ashamed of wanting to implement something that infringes on the personal lives and liberties of others.  Such concepts are now alien to our advanced societies.  If you wish to live in such a society then go to some backwater that practices it, as you clearly don't belong.  Any more drivel you would like to add?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #74 - January 04, 2010, 11:37 AM
    Quote
    Any mature legal tradition has complex avenues to obtain rights.


    again, I'm sorry, I dont follow...what does this mean?
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #75 - January 04, 2010, 11:43 AM
    Quote from: Homer on January 04, 2010, 11:35 AM
    I dont agree, because I firmly believe that there should be One Law for All, and that Religious Courts have no place in a secular society. Not to mention that so far, they have been known to constantly overstep their bounds, esp into criminal matters, such as domestic violence.
    And on top of it all, It creates pointless sectarian tribalism.

    Keep in mind, arbitration mediation still has to be in line with the law. Now, since what you are describing, arbitration dispute resolution that does not pass verdicts that are unlawful, already exist.....what are you (or the 'jurists') actually calling for?
    Thats the part I cant wrap my head around. As far as I can tell they want more power, beyond simple arbitration. Else, there is simply nothing to 'call for'.


    Ok well you need to firstly deal with the mantra of one law for all.  If in civil society certain parties prefer to accept obligations over and above what is deemed the basic standard, or if the law offers differnet avenues for resolution as our legal system does it is not a simple one law for all.  in fact the mantra is scaringly totalitarian once you consider its possible implications.  In civil law we have already decentralised.  If by one law for all you mean the current model then you already accept religious courts along with political and other types of affilitation such a labour dispute resolution etc involving trade unions or other economic and political groups.  If you mean that then I have no difference of opinion with you.  Especially as you quite rightly say it must be in line with UK law (ie not contravene it)
    If however you wish to ban such courts (jewish, socialist or other) than i take issue and we would need to change our current system.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #76 - January 04, 2010, 11:44 AM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 11:35 AM
    Dear Ras  One law is a slogan.  Any mature legal tradition has complex avenues to obtain rights.  We are discussing that.  re read my post if you need to.


    So is sharia for the UK.. It is not fair for some to follow different laws in a society.  If you can chose to follow special laws made for you, then other people will have the same right to follow their laws and society will disintegrate.  It is not rocket science.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #77 - January 04, 2010, 11:44 AM
    Quote from: ras111 on January 04, 2010, 11:36 AM
    Dear Lightrays you are a cunt.  

  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #78 - January 04, 2010, 11:48 AM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 10:42 AM
    Post Eden humanity by its very nature is "fallen" ...

    Do you mean this in a literal sense?

    As far as Sharia goes the problem with revelation based laws in general is that they are immutable and a relic (in case of Abrahamic religions) of Bronze Age mentality. In contrast the civil law changes and evolves all the time. In addition there is the fundamental issue of "obeying" the spirit of the law - an arbitration supervised by a religious authority would inevitably be misogynistic and discriminatory in nature.

    The fundamental problem is really this: "Muslims who flee the political and economic failures, social failures, intellectual and moral failures of Muslim societies still come with Islam because they fail to recognize that it is Islam that explains those political and economic failures, social failures, intellectual and moral failures." (quote by Unechance)

  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #79 - January 04, 2010, 11:49 AM
    Quote from: Homer on January 04, 2010, 11:37 AM
    again, I'm sorry, I dont follow...what does this mean?

    it means that disputes can be resolved by a number of avenues.  Many are pre-court and in the UK involve social, economic, religious and other factors and involve assemblies of individuals experts and groups/families.  It works and is being extended by the present government.  Even if it goes to court many different routes exist.  It is not simply crime A....look up relevant punishment....apply punishment B

    Within the existing complexity there is formal recognition of Islamic beliefs and a further level of recognition will help with scrutiny.  As you say it exists already and I am interested to really understand why you or anyone opposes it
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #80 - January 04, 2010, 11:50 AM
    You can't say I'm wrong.  Someone wanting to adopt the policies and values of the 3rd Reich would have also been called a cunt.  Why should you be exempt?  your propositions are equally immoral and preposterous.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #81 - January 04, 2010, 11:51 AM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 03, 2010, 10:13 AM
    No the sharia is fine thanks.  It is a mature and flexible system capable of meeting mankinds needs...sorry you cant see it. 


    Thats a big statement.

    Quote
    mature and flexible system

    Made for and in the context of 7th century arabia, by people who believed witches were real.
    Cant ever be changed or amended.

    That sounds like the opposite of mature and flexible

    Quote
    meeting mankinds needs.


    Like what? The need to kill gays and blasphemers or the need to ban flutes and enforce thought crimes?

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #82 - January 04, 2010, 11:52 AM
    Quote from: ras111 on January 04, 2010, 11:44 AM
    So is sharia for the UK.. It is not fair for some to follow different laws in a society.  If you can chose to follow special laws made for you, then other people will have the same right to follow their laws and society will disintegrate.  It is not rocket science.


    No not rocket science in fact not even logical.  diversity is a mark of a mature society.  
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #83 - January 04, 2010, 11:55 AM
    Quote from: Kenan on January 04, 2010, 11:48 AM
    Do you mean this in a literal sense?

    As far as Sharia goes the problem with revelation based laws in general is that they are immutable and a relic (in case of Abrahamic religions) of Bronze Age mentality. In contrast the civil law changes and evolves all the time. In addition there is the fundamental issue of "obeying" the spirit of the law - an arbitration supervised by a religious authority would inevitably be misogynistic and discriminatory in nature.

    The fundamental problem is really this: "Muslims who flee the political and economic failures, social failures, intellectual and moral failures of Muslim societies still come with Islam because they fail to recognize that it is Islam that explains those political and economic failures, social failures, intellectual and moral failures." (quote by Unechance)



    Not to mention the legitimacy of claim of the law to be divine origin.  One cannot even prove that god exists let alone the fact that he gave laws.  

    Sharia means that god is immoral, because god is all knowing and thus humans have no free will.  Therefore if Allah is all knowing then he has the obligation to stop the crime from taking place and by changing the fate of the human accordingly.   Setting laws to punish humans who are destined to break them is immoral.  

    If humans have free will and actually can be tested then Allah is not all knowing as he cannot know their decisions and therefore an imperfect god.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #84 - January 04, 2010, 11:57 AM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 11:52 AM
    No not rocket science in fact not even logical.  diversity is a mark of a mature society.  


    People stoning others, not tolerating free speech and believing in bronze age fairies and principles and others who are civilised and do things rationally and have completely different values... Yes I see that working very well....  What drugs are you on?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #85 - January 04, 2010, 11:59 AM
    Quote from: Kenan on January 04, 2010, 11:48 AM
    Do you mean this in a literal sense?

    As far as Sharia goes the problem with revelation based laws in general is that they are immutable and a relic (in case of Abrahamic religions) of Bronze Age mentality. In contrast the civil law changes and evolves all the time.

    Wrong.  Any legal tradition has 1.  Basic precepts or inalienable rights as in the amercan or french constitutions or in our unwritten one.  Indeed most systems regard them as universal and self evident... and 2. developing and changing case law based on needs of certain times and circumstances.

    Sharia like any tradition has these two aspects



  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #86 - January 04, 2010, 12:02 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on January 04, 2010, 11:50 AM
    You can't say I'm wrong.  Someone wanting to adopt the policies and values of the 3rd Reich would have also been called a cunt.  Why should you be exempt?  your propositions are equally immoral and preposterous.


    What propositions have I made?  That people in the UK should be allowed to marry, set up businesses, pay charity, based on their beliefs and in a manner that does not contravene the UK's laws.  This makes me as you say "a cunt". 
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #87 - January 04, 2010, 12:06 PM
    What is the sharia law on adultery, polygamy, apostasy and homosexuality?
    Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 12:02 PM
    What propositions have I made?  That people in the UK should be allowed to marry, set up businesses, pay charity, based on their beliefs and in a manner that does not contravene the UK's laws.  This makes me as you say "a cunt". 


    You do not need sharia to do those things.. Marrying for one is not a problem unless its polygamy or paedophilia.  The reasoning that you need sharia is ridiculous.  Even other Muslims would consider you as a munafiqun as you either implement it all or you implement nothing.  If you have no faith in the laws of your society then why do you stay?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #88 - January 04, 2010, 12:13 PM
    Please Ras.. To call for civil legal aspects of sharia in the uk makes me a munafiq?  are you really of the opinion that there are only two choices to call for full sharia implimentation or none. 
    Your ignorance permits you to miss the point that it is  an islamic ruling that makes provision for muslims to live under non islamic legal systems and within those to maintain all aspects of islamic law which are premitted.  You set up a false dichotomy as to live under UK law is "islamic" in that sense.  Of course one doesnt need to do the things which may be permitted.  Thats 'freedom'  (please forgive me henceforth if I only reply to comments of yours that make sense.)
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #89 - January 04, 2010, 12:21 PM
    Quote from: Homer on January 04, 2010, 11:51 AM
    Thats a big statement.
    Made for and in the context of 7th century arabia, by people who believed witches were real.
    Cant ever be changed or amended.

    That sounds like the opposite of mature and flexible

    Like what? The need to kill gays and blasphemers or the need to ban flutes and enforce thought crimes?



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