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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hello people

 (Read 113813 times)
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #180 - January 11, 2010, 08:08 PM

    I read the Arabic version, and I should say that Hassan's translation is the most accurate. Afro

    ...
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #181 - January 11, 2010, 08:14 PM

    I cant wait until I read the quran completely cover to cover in Arabic and translate it. The current translations have scarred me, if they had only translated the words honestly I wouldn't have had to feel so guilty when I started doubting whilst reading it.

    Using words such as universe and orbs pfft or using the word ذرة to mean atom. That word means something small, like a grain? I think the translation of atom came afterward, ie ذرة meant something else during 7th century Arabia. Or am I wrong?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #182 - January 11, 2010, 09:02 PM

    On that http://www.openburhan.com/ site there's some serious hypocritical shit going on. They give translations in both english and urdu and its saying different things in english and urdu for the same verse (65:4).

    english translation for the part referring to underage girls:
    'and for those who have no courses (it is the same)'

    urdu translation for the same part:
    ' اور وہ عورتیں جنہیں (ابھی) حیض نہیں آیا (ان کی بھی یہی عدّت ہے)'
    translation: "and for those women who don't (yet) menstruate''

    the word in the brackets in the above urdu tanslation  (ابھی)  is 'abhi', which means 'yet'.

    So why is the verse translated differently in eng and urdu?

    Also that page translates:
     لم = why/for what/for what reason/for what purpose/wherefore
     يحض = menstruate/they (f) menstruate/ they discharge monthly from their uteruses

    whereas I think (and Hassan also pointed out) that   لم  means 'they haven't' or a negative connotation, not a questioning meaning e.g 'why/for whatever reason,' etc. Can a native speaker of arabic confirm what the correct meaning of  لم  is?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #183 - January 11, 2010, 09:23 PM

    The funny thing is that their own dictionary meaning (on that site i quoted) shows the meaning of لم   as 'not' ,
    and that of يَحِضْنَ as '[they] menstruated'.

    Meaning of لم :
    http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(65:4:13)

    Meaning of يَحِضْنَ :
    http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=HyD#(65:4:14)

    On that 2nd url it shows the meaning of l-maḥīḍi (ٱلْمَحِيضِ) right below yaḥiḍ'na (يَحِضْنَ) , don't be confused, its the first word (yaḥiḍ'na (يَحِضْنَ) ) whose meaning you're after and which is being used in that verse
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #184 - January 11, 2010, 09:36 PM

    Can a native speaker of arabic confirm what the correct meaning of  لم  is?


    As I said لَمْ is a negative particle that means: Not, didn't, haven't etc...

    For example:

    لَمْ يَكُنْ أَحَدٌ يَفْهَمُ كِتَابَ اللِه المُبِيَن = No-one can understand Allah's clear book.  grin12


  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #185 - January 11, 2010, 09:38 PM

    well I think we can, its just a shame its not what muslims want to hear

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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #186 - January 11, 2010, 09:48 PM

    As I said لَمْ is a negative particle that means: Not, didn't, haven't etc...

    For example:

    لَمْ يَكُنْ أَحَدٌ يَفْهَمُ كِتَابَ اللِه المُبِيَن = No-one can understand Allah's clear book.  grin12





    how about you all check the Sura number 112 (Al-Ikhlas), it mention the word in question 3 times!

    Say: He, Allah, is One. (1) Allah is He on Whom all depend. (2) He begets not, nor is He begotten. (3) And none is like Him. (4)

    بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ
    قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ ﴿١﴾ اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ ﴿٢﴾ لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ ﴿٣﴾ وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ ﴿٤﴾

    ...
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #187 - January 11, 2010, 09:51 PM

    case closed

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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #188 - January 12, 2010, 01:46 PM

    Hi Hassan

    Thanks for your reply. I can also sincerely say that I have a great deal of respect for you and consider you to be a friend.

    As I mentioned in my earlier response, I agree fully with you that the correct translation is:

    "They haven't menstruated."

    I was not debating this. My argument was that your inference that this part of the verse is referring to young girls is debatable, and the tafsirs suggesting this are written by fallible human beings - they could have either honestly misinterpreted or misinterpreted based on their own desires, or simply just corrupted. Once again I find it quite surprising how a lot of you are willing to put so much faith and trust in tafsirs and hadith when you are so ready and willing to dismiss the Quran as 'made up' and 'false'.

    My reasoning of what the verse means is not just based on Shabbir Ahmeds translation but is based on what I actually thought it might mean when I initially read the various translations myself (i.e. those from Shakir, Yusuf Ali etc.). I honestly never heard of the fact (and it never occured to me) that some people were claiming it referred to young girls until I came on here. And of course although it's possible for ones thinking to become blurred when they want to beleive in something, it is also possible for ones thinking to become skewed when they are trying to gather reasons for not beleiveing in something.

    From your post I do feel that my resoning has not been fully understood so I will try to be a bit clearer (I am often not good at this, so forgive me):

    The first three verses in the surah as you point out are referring to women in general - so therefore women who are menstruating - if women have their period then divorce can go ahead. Verse 4, the verse in question, deals more specifically with women who may possibly be preganant or who are pregnant since it is God's wish that the newborn is delivered before any divorce is finalised. Obviously those 'women who haven't menstruated' i.e. women who have have missed there initial expected period, may be pregnant and they must therefore wait an additional three months to confirm whether they are indeed pregnant (obviously since there were no pregnancy tests etc. in those days - but after this stage it should be obvious). So women can not be excused on the grounds that they have a problem which stops them menstrauting (i.e. anorexia, hormonal imbalance) or even if they are menopausal. If after the additional three months they are still not mesturating but that it is found that they are not in fact pregnant (it should be quite obvious by this stage) the divorce can be finalised.

    In addition part of my reasoning comes from the fact that the verse does not say something along the lines of ''women who 'do not yet' menstruate'' but simply says 'women who haven't menstruated' indicating it might refer to women in general who have missed their initial expected period rather than young girls.

    This is my sincere view (I honestly do think it's correct) although I fully accept that your interpretation could be correct and mine could be wrong.

    Best wishes
    Abu Yunus

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #189 - January 12, 2010, 02:05 PM

    Hey BlackDawg, I agree the use of words such as spherical for 'daha' and the use of the word 'atom' in the Quran is a bit silly. But I do feel in other cases meanings can be much more accurately infered. For example the term 'rounded courses' most likely obviously means orbits given the context in which the words are normally found. Also, although the word 'heavens' can mean many things, it can also quite obviously mean the cosmos or the universe since the following verse:

    ''We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars''

    37:6

    (note I have already shown this verse to be contradictory to the pre-corpernican model)

    I know you think Muhammad was probably just making random stuff up and the verse doesn't necessarily mean anything, but then again the verse is quite telling.

    btw did you read the science section of my blog like you promised? I expect a full analysis and report.

    Take care
    Abu Yunus

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #190 - January 12, 2010, 02:26 PM

    AbuYunus, hi.

    Do you think any major prophecies that are stated in Islam, could happen soon? Such as the coming of Dajjal, return of Is'a? Gog and Magog? Imam Mahdi?

    Do you think any minor signs are appearing? If so, can you state examples?

    For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who refuse to understand, no explanation is possible.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #191 - January 12, 2010, 02:36 PM

    Hi Abu Yunus,

    I'm aware that this can go on forever so I think I'll just say "To you your religion and to me my (lack of) religion"  grin12

    As for why I take the classical tafseers and scholars opinion - only because imho they represent more closely the understanding of the Prophet and those around him.

    I believe modernists tend to be so far removed from that time that their judgment is heavily influenced by the centuries of slowly shifting morality and circumstances.

    I'm sure you know as well as I do that we were all taught the nice things about Islam from our parents. The nasty things have been long buried and forgotten.

    Peace

    Hassan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #192 - January 12, 2010, 02:52 PM

    Hey Hassan,

    to be honest I never really listened to what my parents had to say about Islam when I was younger and in fact became an atheist based on my own reasoning for a couple of years when I was quite young. My views on Islam today are based on the Quran alone which I regard a good source of facts given how well it has been preserved. The same can not be said about hadith and tafsirs.

    Regards

    Abu Yunus

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #193 - January 12, 2010, 04:12 PM

    Hey Hassan,

    to be honest I never really listened to what my parents had to say about Islam when I was younger and in fact became an atheist based on my own reasoning for a couple of years when I was quite young. My views on Islam today are based on the Quran alone which I regard a good source of facts given how well it has been preserved. The same can not be said about hadith and tafsirs.

    Regards

    Abu Yunus


    Salams Abu Yunus

    Can you help me understand which bits of the Quran are facts, and are to be taken literally? It would also be helpful if you can suggest bits of the Quran that are not facts, and perhaps allegorical?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #194 - January 12, 2010, 04:38 PM

    ''Can you help me understand which bits of the Quran are facts, and are to be taken literally? It would also be helpful if you can suggest bits of the Quran that are not facts, and perhaps allegorical?''

    I'm sure you can manage this yourself abuk. But if you have some specific verses you are not sure about I'd be more than happy to offer my opinion.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #195 - January 12, 2010, 04:52 PM

    I think you put up a good defense of 65:4, my only contention was the translation but you accept this version.   

    If you wish to take tafsir out of the equation and history according to sahih hadith (whereby the prophet himself slept with an underage girl) then you could justifiably infer from the verse that it is referring to older women.

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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #196 - January 12, 2010, 05:01 PM

    Hey Hassan,

    to be honest I never really listened to what my parents had to say about Islam when I was younger and in fact became an atheist based on my own reasoning for a couple of years when I was quite young. My views on Islam today are based on the Quran alone which I regard a good source of facts given how well it has been preserved. The same can not be said about hadith and tafsirs.

    Regards

    Abu Yunus


    Cool and I wish you the best of luck - and yes, as you say I'm also proud to consider you a friend and I admire the way you are able to discuss with Ex-Muslims without displaying the usual paranoia, prejudice and enmity we sometimes see from Muslims.

    Like I always say, I know most Muslims are good people - just like anyone else - but they definitely have a real blind spot when it comes to those who leave Islam. It is encouraging to see people like yourself as it gives me hope that Muslims will eventually get over this and hopefully start showing a good example.

    And I say all this bearing in mind that you are an Arsenal fan and I am a Spurs fan - but I won't hold that against you.  grin12
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #197 - January 12, 2010, 05:03 PM

    ''I think you put up a good defense of 65:4, my only contention was the translation but you accept this version.  

    If you wish to take tafsir out of the equation and history according to sahih hadith (whereby the prophet himself slept with an underage girl) then you could justifiably infer from the verse that it is referring to older women.''

    IsLame I agree with you and appreciate your honesty.

    PS I hope you don't mind my signature - you seem like a decent guy and I therefore thought you wouldn't mind being teased  grin12

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #198 - January 12, 2010, 05:06 PM

    Cheers Hassan - Champions league? - You're 'avin a laugh

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #199 - January 12, 2010, 05:13 PM

    PS I hope you don't mind my signature - you seem like a decent guy and I therefore thought you wouldn't mind being teased  grin12

    I guess you're not a fan of northern accents?  I dont mind  - the more publicity the better  grin12

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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #200 - January 12, 2010, 05:14 PM

    @abuyunus

    dats raisist!

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #201 - January 12, 2010, 05:17 PM

    Iblis, it not raisist - it racialistic!

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #202 - January 12, 2010, 05:17 PM

    ''Can you help me understand which bits of the Quran are facts, and are to be taken literally? It would also be helpful if you can suggest bits of the Quran that are not facts, and perhaps allegorical?''

    I'm sure you can manage this yourself abuk. But if you have some specific verses you are not sure about I'd be more than happy to offer my opinion.


    Unfortunately I don?t. I struggled with Al-Imran verse 7 during tafsir classes. The Quran talks about certain verses being muhkam (clear, definitive), whilst others being mutashabih (allegorical). I have never managed to resolve how we are to know which ayats are which. This was an issue I also struggled with in the bible.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #203 - January 12, 2010, 05:29 PM

    Let me put forward a few more verses from your holy book with regards to its racism, misogyny & acceptance of slavery:

    Slavery - The quran not only accepted slavery, but allowed you to have sex with your slaves even if you were married (as the prophet did with Maria)
    Quote
    Quran 33:52"It is not permitted thee to take other wives hereafter, nor to change thy present wives for other women, though their beauty charm thee, except slaves whom thy right hand shall possess."


    Racism towards others religions, including monotheistic ones ? I hope you dont have any as friends particularly the permanently cursed Jews:
    Quote
    Quran  5:51 "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
    Quran 5:70  'As you can clearly see the Jews are cursed, till the end of time, Allah tried to help them'


    Or polytheists at the time who were forced to convert :
    Quote
    Quran 8:39-40  Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven them, but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's

    and pay a non-muslim tax:
    Quote
    Quran 9:5 "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful."
    Quran 33:27 'And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and to a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.  
    Quran 9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
    Sura 8:12  I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

    and last but not least, its misogyny
    Quote
    i)   Quran 2:228 "and the men are a degree above them (women)
    ii)   A woman according to Quran 43:18 'is a creature who in dispute cannot make herself clear'
    iii)   Also women inherit half as much as their male counterparts. (Quran 4:11-12)
    iv)   Women can only marry muslims and have a single partner (Quran 4:22 to 24), men on the other hand don't have to marry muslims and can marry up to 4 women (Quran 4:3)






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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #204 - January 12, 2010, 05:57 PM

    Just to provide balance & fairness, and so you know where I  am coming from as an alternative to Islamic beliefs, here's where I stand.  

    Feel free to dig holes in it, criticise, mock as much as you like Wink

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dcx7ZaIT9g

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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #205 - January 12, 2010, 11:16 PM

    I'm sure you can manage this yourself abuk. But if you have some specific verses you are not sure about I'd be more than happy to offer my opinion.

    I know this is not intended as a reply to me, but I hope you don't mind me replying.  Smiley

    What are the standards for considering a verse metaphorical or literal? As far as I know there isn't some sort of Ilm that Imams/Mullahs have developed to do this, as most of them take the Quran to be literal, and tafseers are there to help us.

    But if that is left to the individual then I would say I consider Adam and Eve to be metaphorical, all the 'slay them' 'kill them' 'hit them' and the penalties for 'adultery' verses to be Allah just joking or that they are meant for 7th century arabia. Also women derogatory verses to be just applicable for the time of the prophet. I will consider hell and heaven to not be physical torment or a physical paradise but a rather something metaphorical, because I can't comprehend the notion that there are people whom Allah has created and is going to torment. I would consider praying and fasting and all that stuff to be just something up to the individual, and that Allah is not going to lose sleep over it, after all he doesn't really need it.

    Now, I basically took the Qur'an almost entirely metaphorical. What prevents me from that if there are no defining rules on what to consider metaphorical and what not? Maybe Allah should have divided the Qur'an into two, Al-Qur'an Al-Metaphor, and Al-Qur'an Al-Literal, so we are clear on what is what?

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #206 - January 12, 2010, 11:30 PM

    I never thought of it that way  Cheesy 

    Islam would make sense to me if the whole quran, like the sufi's in a way, were to be taken metaphorically. That way its tone and language would not disturb me.  Oh, I nearly forgot, I'm with abuyunus2,  the hadith and Sira cannot reliably be seen as part of Islam either, unless its something good.

    Would I be able to do that?  I guess so, as long as I claim there to be one god and mo to be his messenger, then hey, I get a chance to get to heaven unlike the rest of you suckers here.

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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #207 - January 13, 2010, 04:33 AM

    But if you have some specific verses you are not sure about I'd be more than happy to offer my opinion.


    Hi abuyunus,
    Theres a verse in Quran that bothers me ALOT.
    "Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) separate them in beds and last) beat them.   But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

    Can you please explain the last part?

    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #208 - January 13, 2010, 03:45 PM

    One question at a time guys. You are only debating one person, lets try not to gang up on him.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #209 - January 13, 2010, 05:37 PM

    Peru I suggested he take it one on one or even one topic at a time, but he refused, said he likes it this way, so gang away guys!!  bunny

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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