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 Topic: Hello people

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  • Hello people
     OP - January 09, 2010, 12:22 AM
    After a bit of friendly banter with a couple of you on the forums I was encouraged to introduce myself to everyone. So here goes...

    I was born a Muslim but at the age of 18 became an atheist. After a couple of years of atheism I became Muslim again - I am now 30 years old and still a Muslim. But since I was technically once an ex-muslim, I'm hoping you'll all welcome me to this site lovingly with open arms  Wink

    I have a wonderful 11 month old son and a lovely wife. I am a postdoctoral cancer research scientist at Cambridge University although I find the biological sciences a bit boring compared to theoretical physics where my real passions lie - I try and read what I can although a lot goes over my head.

    Anyways, I recently wrote a blog 'A response to Abooali' which discusses and challenges a lot of the veiws Hassan makes in his wordpress blog and in his videos including of course his scientific miracles video. Please note however that this was not a personal crusade against Hassan. In fact I respect Hassan, in particular his in-depth knowledge of Islam and his quest for truth. Indeed I have asked the very same questions about Islam which led him to the conclusion Islam was false. I therefore felt it might be good to give my perspective and my reasons for still beleiving in Islam - therefore although I address Hassan in the blog it was indeed intended for general readership.

    I know a lot of you will think I'm just another nutter, personally I wouldn't blame you - but it would be great if you guys could read my blog and let me know your thoughts - no matter how critical your veiws are. To view the blog just click on the link in my signature.

    Although Hassan and I disagree (as well as agree) on a lot of things, we are genuinely respectful of each others veiws. I sincerely hope I can share the same 'professional relationship' with the rest of you guys.


    Peace and best wishes

    Abu Yunus
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #1 - January 09, 2010, 12:34 AM
    Quote
    I was born a Muslim but at the age of 18 became an atheist. After a couple of years of atheism I became Muslim again - I am now 30 years old and still a Muslim. But since I was technically once an ex-muslim, I'm hoping you'll all welcome me to this site lovingly with open arms

    Anyone is welcome on this site Smiley Hope you enjoy stay yes

    Quote
    I find the biological sciences a bit boring compared to theoretical physics where my real passions lie - I try and read what I can although a lot goes over my head.

    Cheesy I bet you many qualified physicists feel the same way Tongue

    I will have a look over your reply to Hassan.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #2 - January 09, 2010, 12:34 AM

    Hello mate, welcome to the forum  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #3 - January 09, 2010, 12:39 AM
    Welcome - tbh, your welcome here even if you were never an exmuslim. Muslims rarely come here, so you're a rare commodity.

    I'm a physicist too.  I am sure you might find some of the views offensive on this forum, we do lose our objectivity at times when surrounded by nodding heads.

    Just to get a grip on your recent standpoint, which version of Islam do you follow?  The progressive, the wahabi, literalist, sufi etc

    What made you go from atheist to muslim  Huh? If you want to know where I stand and why, please click on the link to my blog in my signature.

    Looking forward to some interesting debates Wink
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #4 - January 09, 2010, 12:40 AM
    Welcome to the forum brother and salaams to you. I would be very interested to learn what bought you back to Islam. Please share.
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #5 - January 09, 2010, 12:41 AM
    Welcome to the forums.  Smiley

    I hope you have a thick skin, we speak freely about matters of the deen, allah and muhammad (we affectionately call him "mo"). And being a secular forums, we're a free-speech zone with the exception of racism or death threads and things like that. So unlike Muslim forums, we won't ban you for drawing offensive cartoons of Richard Dawkins.  Tongue
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #6 - January 09, 2010, 12:42 AM
    Sorry I'm not that interested in the Science in the Quran debate since Muslims can never decide what the book says and words in arabic have so many different meanings which means even if there were inaccuracies they could easily be explained away or 're-interpreted'. Such a book is completely worthless and meaningless in my eyes.
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #7 - January 09, 2010, 12:51 AM
    Allow me to kickstart the debate;

    1) As a biologist, do you believe in evolution?  
    2) If we are the perfect creation, then why did Allah create us with a foreskin?  
    3) How do you translate the arabic word 'daha' for the shape of the earth?
    4) Do you accept the Sahih hadith?
    5) Can atheists go to heaven according to the Quran?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #8 - January 09, 2010, 12:55 AM
    Quote from: pakman on January 09, 2010, 12:42 AM
    Sorry I'm not that interested in the Science in the Quran debate since Muslims can never decide what the book says and words in arabic have so many different meanings which means even if there were inaccuracies they could easily be explained away or 're-interpreted'. Such a book is completely worthless and meaningless in my eyes.


    I'm of the same mind. Contradictions and 'Science' in the Quran had little adverse or positive effect on my faith. It's all a matter of a bunch of modern muslim trying to read in meanings to make Islam seem fit with the times. It does nothing to minimize the ethical and logical absurdities of Islam in general.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #9 - January 09, 2010, 01:11 AM
    Quote from: Iblis on January 09, 2010, 12:55 AM
    I'm of the same mind. Contradictions and 'Science' in the Quran had little adverse or positive effect on my faith. It's all a matter of a bunch of modern muslim trying to read in meanings to make Islam seem fit with the times. It does nothing to minimize the ethical and logical absurdities of Islam in general.

    I know this is off-topic, but why did you change your name?
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #10 - January 09, 2010, 01:28 AM
    Just felt like it. Kinda like Mo walkin in to Hafsa's quarters n like "whoa, damn coptic byach, u fiiiine, come ova here...mmm". Just like dat.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #11 - January 09, 2010, 01:37 AM
    Salams Abu Yunus,

    Good to see you my friend. I am not online as much as I was, so forgive me if I don't join you in the discussions here.

    But I welcome you and I hope others here treat you well. I enjoyed reading your blog and as I said I agree with a great deal you said though I respectfully disagree with other things.

    As you know, I am not against Islam and am certainly not against Muslims. In fact I recognise the benefit religion brings and I certainly do not extol the virtues of Agnosticism. It is not a comfortable position. I would much rather say I know the truth. But I don't and I value honesty above any emotional attachment to the religion of my family, community, peers, race or nation.

    Peace,

    Hassan.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #12 - January 09, 2010, 01:39 AM
    Look who's resurrected....   grin12  Hello... Happy New year.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #13 - January 09, 2010, 01:44 AM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 09, 2010, 12:32 AM
    If anyone is interested in reading the blog but is having trouble finding it, simply type in 'abuyunus2' into google search and follow the 'A response to Abooali link'.

    i read your blog and think you put up a well balanced and good defence against Hassans science video.  My only criticism was that I found a certain degree of confirmation bias, the kind of information that would not lead you to convert to Islam on its own merit  unless you alredy had an pre-existing affinity/bias towards it - a little unfair of God.

    I was hoping to see the knock-out punch that led you to revert so I guess its a matter to wait and see, perhaps the blog was only designed to 'block' rather than to take the ball and run with it, and to give it credit, I thought you took each point in turn and did that very well.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #14 - January 09, 2010, 01:49 AM
    Whoa, don't any of you guys sleep! Thanks for the welcome. I promise not to start crying over how offensive your comments are, so you need not worry. So to answer all your questions so far:

    Islame: I don't follow any particlular sect of Islam. I am not Sunni, Shia etc. Rather I follow my own sincere and truthful as possible interpretation of the Quran - this is how I define my religion.

    1) As a biologist, do you believe in evolution?  
    Although there is evidence in support of evolution, it is not a proven theory in my opinion - I certainly need a lot more evidence before I am ready to accept it. As a theist I have the luxury of being critical of the theory. As a cell biologist one of the things I feel that is still a big unsolved problem with the theory is that it fails to explain the complexity of cellular systems and pathways. Indeed many of the cellular pathways that I work on would need numerous favourible mutations occuring at the same time for the pathway to be meaningful - one mutation at a time just doesn't cut it. Indeed the evidence for evolution pales in comparrison with the evidence there is for theories of physics - theories of physics in general to me appear to be subject to much much higher scientific scrutiny. Furthermore I should also note that evolution is a theory that describes things after life first appeared on earth - this is widely accpeted. It does not say anything about how life first appeared on earth. In summary, could the theory be correct - Sure. Does it explain the existence of life on earth - No.

    2) If we are the perfect creation, then why did Allah create us with a foreskin?  
    I don't know

    3) How do you translate the arabic word 'daha' for the shape of the earth?
    spread out

    4) Do you accept the Sahih hadith?
    No - because Hadith are only labelled 'Sahih' by men. God doesn't offer it protection from corruption as he has done with the Quran. But I don't reject Hadith completely i.e some are obviously important for prayer, Zakaat etc. and others extend on verses of the Quran - it is up to us as indviduals to decide which ones are true

    5) Can Atheists go to heaven?
    Yes, only polytheism is not forgiven. In addtion Hell may not be eternal - for a full explanation visit the 'Hell, Eternity and Reason' section of my blog (just follow the link on the right hand side of the blog)

    Pakman: There were a number of reasons why I decided to go back to Islam, it would take too long to go into here but my blog explains all in full.

    Iblis and Pakman: I agree some things are open to interpretation in the Quran but other things are quite clear cut- as Hassan makes clear in his video. I have discussed a few of these in my blog.


    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #15 - January 09, 2010, 01:53 AM
    Cheers Hassan - thanks for telling the rest of these guys not to abuse me  Afro
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #16 - January 09, 2010, 01:59 AM
    So do you actually think that we really came from two individuals?

    As regards cellular pathways... which ones are you working on if I may ask?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #17 - January 09, 2010, 02:14 AM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 09, 2010, 01:49 AM
    Whoa, don't any of you guys sleep!

    Sleep is for wimps, we have to plan a New World Order

    Quote
    Thanks for the welcome. I promise not to start crying over how offensive your comments are, so you need not worry. So to answer all your questions so far:

    Islame: I don't follow any particlular sect of Islam. I am not Sunni, Shia etc. Rather I follow my own sincere and truthful as possible interpretation of the Quran - this is how I define my religion...

    4) Do you accept the Sahih hadith?
    No - because Hadith are only labelled 'Sahih' by men. God doesn't offer it protection from corruption as he has done with the Quran. But I don't reject Hadith completely i.e some are obviously important for prayer, Zakaat etc. and others extend on verses of the Quran - it is up to us as indviduals to decide which ones are true
     

    A progressive apologist quran-only then Wink  You heard of Rashid Khalifa?

    Quote
    1) As a biologist, do you believe in evolution? 
    Although there is evidence in support of evolution, it is not a proven theory in my opinion - I certainly need a lot more evidence before I am ready to accept it. As a theist I have the luxury of being critical of the theory. As a cell biologist one of the things I feel that is still a big unsolved problem with the theory is that it fails to explain the complexity of cellular systems and pathways. Indeed many of the cellular pathways that I work on would need numerous favourible mutations occuring at the same time for the pathway to be meaningful - one mutation at a time just doesn't cut it.

     
    You come across the ecoli bacteria experiment, and digestion of nitrates which required a primary non-beneficial mutation for it to occur?   Its been discussed before, but can dig it out for you if you havent seen it..

    Quote
    Furthermore I should also note that evolution is a theory that describes things after life first appeared on earth - this is widely accpeted. It does not say anything about how life first appeared on earth. In summary, could the theory be correct - Sure. Does it explain the existence of life on earth - No.

    Yes, abiogeneisis is a completely unrelated topic.   You will be aware proof for evolution is now in DNA, as well as fossils.

    Evolution brings God creating humans, and Adam & Eve's existence & purpose into question,

    Quote
    2) If we are the perfect creation, then why did Allah create us with a foreskin? 
    I don't know

    In that case would you perform this non-essential invasive operation on your child, if you dont know what its for and dont fully accept the hadith?  As far as I am aware its not in the Quran.

    Quote
    3) How do you translate the arabic word 'daha' for the shape of the earth?
    spread out

    Glad to see your not from Zakir Nalaik's camp then  Afro

    Whats your view on verse 4:34 (the wife feather stroking verse), and the prophets marriage to youthful Aisha?
    Also do you believe miracle cures can be found in black seed, honey and fly's wings?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #18 - January 09, 2010, 02:20 AM
    So do you actually think that we really came from two individuals?
    I actually find it easier to beleive than life appearing from out of nowhere on earth - there is no scientific theory that explains how life first appeared on earth.

    As regards cellular pathways... which ones are you working on if I may ask?
    I've previously work on the Fanconi Anaemia pathway and DNA repair pathways such as homologous recombination. I also do some work on mitotic spindle assembly. Recently I've started working on the polycomb gene repression pathway.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #19 - January 09, 2010, 02:42 AM
    Quote
    I actually find it easier to beleive than life appearing from out of nowhere on earth - there is no scientific theory that explains how life first appeared on earth.

    That means nothing. Science is a progressive subject, just because we haven't explained something yet doesn't mean we wont in the future. Have you looked at the recent breakthroughs in abiogenesis? Some of it does look promising.

    Nobody believes life appeared out of nowhere. There was a reason for it and it is being thoroughly researched.

    I cant even begin to explain the problems of life staring with Adam and Eve. Limited gene pool is just one example.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #20 - January 09, 2010, 02:47 AM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 09, 2010, 02:20 AM
    So do you actually think that we really came from two individuals?
    I actually find it easier to beleive than life appearing from out of nowhere on earth - there is no scientific theory that explains how life first appeared on earth.


    Well life did not appear nowhere out of nowhere on Earth, there are several theories about how it might have originated, because people are not sure about which one it is yet.  Reproduction from two individuals would bring about severe effects in the offspring due to genetic mutation brought about by inbreeding.  This is simple genetics really.  And since you say you find it problematic to think that life simply appearing out of nowhere (as any rational individual would), it surprises me that you seem to find the notion of two human beings who also appeared from nothing (created) easier to believe....  
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #21 - January 09, 2010, 03:10 AM
    Islame

    Wasn't Rashad Khalafa the one who claimed to be a messenger of God? I am aware of people like Edip Yuskel also. Whilst I do have some parralels with their views there are things which I don't agree with i.e. removal of verses from the Quran to staisfy their 'code 19' thing. I also don't completely reject hadith like they do.

    I am aware that there is some evidence for evolution in DNA as well as fossils. But my stance remains the same I'd like to see more evidence - especially since so many things remain unexplained.  It could well be a popular theory with some evidence. But popular theories have been proven wrong in the past. But as I said earlier I am very open to the fact that the theory may be correct.

    I don't know why God made it permissible for husbands to lightly strike there wives as a last resort. Domestic violence of course occurs in all cultures. I think it's wrong therefore to blame the Quran for domestic violence in Islamic households. Although I do not fully understand the reasons behind this verse, this point alone is not enough for me to conclude Islam is false.

    I do not beleive Aisha was as young as most people beleive she was. But it is likely she was quite young compared to his other wives. For example it has been suggested that she may have been in her early teens when she was married and in her late teens when the marriage was consumated. No doubt you will assume I am taking the apologists standpoint - but anyone of sound intelligence will realise that the hadith are a not a good source of facts. Some have suggested that authors of the relevant hadith 'lowered' her age in order to make an excuse to satisfy there own desires.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #22 - January 09, 2010, 03:16 AM
    You stated that you believe that only polytheism is unforgivable. Why is a simply mistaken belief worthy of hellfire for eternity? Why does Allah get so touchy about people taking up multiple gods? Why does Allah consider denying him or associating partners with him the greatest sin? Moreso than murder, slavery or war.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #23 - January 09, 2010, 03:19 AM
    I respect the fact that you are prepared to say 'I dont know', nothing wrong with that and I unashamedly do it a lot too  Afro

    However can you give let me know your standpoint on the remaining questions too?

    Quote from: Islame
    In that case would you perform this non-essential invasive operation on your child, if you dont know what its for and dont fully accept the hadith?  As far as I am aware its not in the Quran.


    Quote from: Islame
    Also do you believe miracle cures can be found in black seed, honey and fly's wings?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #24 - January 09, 2010, 03:28 AM
    Abuyunus... as regards evolution, lets leave fossils out of the argument for now.  How do you account for the fact that primates have 48 chromosomes and we have 46?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #25 - January 09, 2010, 03:38 AM
    PeruvianSkies and ras111, none of the current abiogenesis theories are impressive to say the least in my humble opinion. Which ones do both of you find most promising and why?

    Limited gene pool is a problem with the Adam and Eve story. However maybe God had one or two genetic tricks up his sleeve - He's quite smart you know (I have this line saved on my clipboard and will paste it from time to time  Wink  sometimes just to annoy you).

    ''And since you say you find it problematic to think that life simply appearing out of nowhere (as any rational individual would), it surprises me that you seem to find the notion of two human beings who also appeared from nothing (created) easier to believe....''

    Actually ras111, I do find it easier to beleive that a supernatural Creator and Designer could create fully functioning beings from out of 'nothing' - since life 'appearing' on earth has no intelligent driving force behind it - and this to me makes it extremely unlikely.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #26 - January 09, 2010, 03:46 AM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 09, 2010, 03:38 AM
    Limited gene pool is a problem with the Adam and Eve story. However maybe God had one or two genetic tricks up his sleeve - He's quite smart you know (I have this line saved on my clipboard and will paste it from time to time  Wink  sometimes just to annoy you).


    I should presume he is, however I would really like to know what those genetic tricks might have been, and why they cannot be applied anymore.

    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 09, 2010, 03:38 AM
    Actually ras111, I do find it easier to beleive that a supernatural Creator and Designer could create fully functioning beings from out of 'nothing' - since life 'appearing' on earth has no intelligent driving force behind it - and this to me makes it extremely unlikely.


    I honestly doubt whether any serious scientist would believe that life started from absolutely nothing, what I was trying to say was that we are still unsure about what that way was, not that that we are unsure about whether life came from nothing. 

    I've forgotten to ask you... what is your opinion on Jinns?  Do you believe they exist?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #27 - January 09, 2010, 03:52 AM
    Islame, there is evidence that male circumcision has some medical benefits. I wasn't aware that according to Islam 'Humans are created perfect'. I would therefore allow the procedure on my child.

    I dont beleive that miracle cures can be found in honey, black seed and fly wings although honey does taste rather good on toast - not to sure about the fly wings though.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #28 - January 09, 2010, 04:04 AM
    Circumcision has no health benefits on its own.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #29 - January 09, 2010, 04:06 AM
    Thanks Iblis (feels really wierd saying that). Thats a really good question. I don't assume to know God's reasons, indeed his divine laws may be impossible to understand with our logic - I actually wrote a whole section on this in my blog, it's called 'Hell, Eternity, and Reason' and the link for it can be found on the right hand side of my main blog page. Hopefully it will provide a much more satisfactory discussion. It would be good if you could give it a read and then get back with any outstanding questions.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
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