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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hello people

 (Read 114137 times)
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #90 - January 09, 2010, 05:56 PM

    Quote from: abuyunus2
    and that if this God exists that he is the Creator of the uinverse and everything in it i.e. essentially the Muslim God. If you think you can make some sort of sense out of sun or elephant worship please go ahead. As a Muslim I beleive that all monotheists can be considered 'Muslims' i.e. submitters to God's will  I beleive we all posess the logic and reason to know that there is only one God


    I am sorry, but I dont.  Please explain why God cannot be infnite, the universe itself, a part of a family with a pecking order, or even a mystical elephant?  You see it sounds normal to you, as you have been conditioned to see it that way.  In the same way an atheist born to atheist parents, struggles to believe in your invisible 'sky' god.  In the same way Hindus cant see why you would mutilate a perfectly sound body with circumcision, condone wife hitting or cover women. 

    Hindu sciptures, just like you do with Muslim scriptures are subject to interpretation.  In the same way that you reject claims of paedophilie against your prophet, despite it being written in black in white and only those sahih hadith rejecting heretics as seen by most other followers.  In the same way some  hindus believe that they are all manifestations of the same monotheistic God as yours.  Or some Christians dont believe in the trinity.

    In any case surely cannot see 'mistaken identity' as a crime punishable by eternal torture. A method of propogation seems to be more likely than God testing his creature reliably in this illogical & narcisistic fashion

    Quote from: abuyunus2
    I have faith that Muhammad, Moses, and Jesus were not liars and they taught us a great deal of good.

    I do too, but then again so did Gandhi and Mother Teresa.


    Quote from: abuyunus2
    Theres no proof that all prophets were sent to the middle east. As Muslims we beleive that God has been sending prophets and messengers ever since Adam - some put the figure over a hundered thousand. Where exactly they were sent no-one knows.


    Is faith good enough ? is that what Islam has boiled down to, you are judged by how uncritical a thinker you are and you ability to believe in an unproven supernatural creator. You dispute scientiic theories surrounded by testing & restesting hypotheses, yet you are prepared to standby a book that was written 1400 years ago amongest huge controversy and based on the words of a single individual, Mohammed Huh?.  Why is Islam predominantly restricted to within a radius of Mecca, because the arabian imperialist commanders were limited in their firepower, or because Allah deemed them more worthy?

    In case you make an appeal to numbers, please take a look at memes & memetic theory (its a biased  article but worth taking a look at http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/terrifying-brilliance-of-islamic.html) , and how they spread .  Islam is still just slice on the the pie chart of world beliefs, and you cling onto without, as you agreed, without any evidence?  Couldnt the least God could have done and provided some evidence?  I would be the first to jump on board in that case.  I appear to be punished for being cynical, when I have in fact studied the Quran and its history more than your average muslim!

    Quote from: abuyunus2
    I will point out once again that the only ingredient that God tells us he used to make all living beings was water giving this particular ingredient special importnace.

    I dont understand this point, I thought I had already shown you this Huh?

    "we are created from earth (11:61), sometimes from dry clay (15:26,28,33, 17:61, 32:7), sometimes from nothing or not from nothing (52:35), sometimes from wet earth (23:12), or from mire (38:71), sometimes from water (25:54, 21:30, 24:45), sometimes from dust (3:59, 30:20, 35:11)

    Also can you explain how we metabolised from water and why you choose this method over & above the rest of Allah ingredients? Is it because this oen makes most sense to you using current science?

    In any case as a muslim, none of these would have made sense to me.  The omnipotent God that could create the universe, would not need his own ingredients to make something

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #91 - January 09, 2010, 06:23 PM

    Peruvian skies and barbarella,

    here is the translation from Shabbir Ahmed:

    ''And such of your women as no longer expect menstruation, as well as those women who do not have menstruation (for any physiological reason), to resolve your doubts, their waiting period is ordained to be three months. And for those who are pregnant, the waiting period ends when they deliver their burden. And anyone who is mindful of Allah, He will make his situation easy for him.''

    The verse doesn't say 'as well as those women who do not have menstruation ''because of their young age''. To assume this part of the verse is refering to pre-pubescent girls is therefore your own extrapolated interpretation. I understand many men in the past have also inetrpreted it as refering to pre-pubescent girls, but the fact is this is still only their own interpretation. To say this verse gives men the right to marry pre-pubescent girls is not warranted.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #92 - January 09, 2010, 06:28 PM

    Abuyunus2, have read IsLame's signature?  Afro

    ...
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #93 - January 09, 2010, 06:31 PM

    So it's down to the translation, your (brackets) are that translators interpretation, and this is the other interpretations:

    065.004
    YUSUFALI: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

    PICKTHAL: And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.

    SHAKIR: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

    I see no explanation of the lack of a period being down to physiological reasons, aside from the little (bracket) add on your translation has.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #94 - January 09, 2010, 06:55 PM

    RIBS, Islam is very tolerant to other religions. Please see the 'Hell, Eternity, and reason' section of my blog for some of my views.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #95 - January 09, 2010, 06:57 PM

    Islam is very tolerant to other religions? Are you joking? Islam's founder's central life mission was the elimination of Arabia's native religion. Islam has wiped out countless religions throughout the world, throughout history. Islam is as tolerant as Christianity is coherent. Try that line on the historically and theology ignorant types, not here.. we're not stupid. We have been polite to you so far, why do you insult us with such a rubbish claim?

    Islam is only tolerant to servants and slaves of it's ideology. It is tolerant to dhimmis and jizya payers. It is not tolerant to free and independent people who hold worldviews or ideas different to Islam.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #96 - January 09, 2010, 07:07 PM

    RIBS, Islam is very tolerant to other religions. Please see the 'Hell, Eternity, and reason' section of my blog for some of my views.

    Seeing how most terrorists these days are Muslims, and how some Muslims treat people of other faiths like shit and just recently this, it clearly failed to deliver the 'respect others' message properly. Not to mention the stuff Iblis mentioned.

    Also you seem to selectively answer some questions and skip others, please answer my previous post if you don't mind.

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #97 - January 09, 2010, 07:11 PM

    Iblis
    It's not my intention to insult anyone. Muslims beleive Christians and Jews will go to heaven - there is even a good argument that all monothestic believers will go to heaven - please see the section of my blog I mention above. Compared to some of the other main religions this is a very tolerant view.

    In addition, you may well disagree, but it was not a 'mission of Islam' to rid Arabia of paganism. Rather the wars during this time resulted from the Pagan Arabs persecuting Muslims for wanting to peacefully spread the word of Islam. Although in later generations some wars may have been unjustly started by Muslims, this is contradictory to the teachings of the Quran. Please see the 'terrorism' section of my blog for more detailed analysis.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #98 - January 09, 2010, 07:13 PM

    RIBS, Islam is very tolerant to other religions. Please see the 'Hell, Eternity, and reason' section of my blog for some of my views.


    What? The words "Islam" and "Tolerance" do not belong in the same sentence!

    Read this news please! http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8249.msg204437#msg204437

    ...
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #99 - January 09, 2010, 07:14 PM

    RIBS, Islam is very tolerant to other religions. Please see the 'Hell, Eternity, and reason' section of my blog for some of my views.

    Considering that before Muhammad, the pre-Islamic Arabs lived in peace with Christian and Jews and monotheists, would you agree that religious tolerance now and since Islam is less than before Islam?

    The polytheist Arabs used to promise to convert their children to Judaism if they became seriously ill and the Jewish god would save them (hence the "no compulsion in religion" line in the Qur'an - Muhammad told these people who had converted to Islam that they were not bound by their promises to convert them to Judaism.

    Khadija's uncle (I think) converted to Christianity - and was not murdered for it - something that would not happen today in Saudi.

    Do you agree that Muslims have some lessons in tolerance to learn from the pre-Islamic Arabs?

    Also I would appreciate if you could answer my last question on your opinion on the Hadith about Muhammad hitting Aisha.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #100 - January 09, 2010, 07:14 PM

    You missed my post then?

    Also where do you get your historical data from if you don't follow hadiths?  ie, how do you know it was the pagans attacking a peaceful budding muslim community?  why not the other way around?  what source are you using?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #101 - January 09, 2010, 07:18 PM

    First of all, in Islam everyone that rejects Muhammad and the Quran go to hell, period. This is the position of a majority of all schools of thought, I could careless what you think because your opinions are in the liberal minority.

    Secondly, Arabs persecuted Muhammad precisely because he was an intolerant shit. He insulted their native gods and disrupted pagan religious life from the offset, he divided families and gave his fellow arabs a mutually exclusive choice "you are either with islam or with the enemy". It was Muhammad who initiated hostilities, not the pagans. The pagan Arabs were merely protecting their heritage and culture against Muhammad. And Muhammad's life purpose was to destroy the paganism in the Kaaba, his last great act was smashing the idols of Hubal and Manat and Allat etc. If Islam was a tolerant faith Muhammad woul dhave at the least moved the idols eslewhere.

    So lets do a recap of Mo's life in relation to other faiths. Before Mo's mission Arabia had: paganism, judaism, christianity. After Mo was done Arabia had: Islam. Where is the tolerance in this?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #102 - January 09, 2010, 07:24 PM

    Abu, if you just say "FAITH" then I would understand, but to try and interpret Islam as you please then that is not real! Although, I really wish that all Muslims think like you. Only Quran and no Hadeaths and later they discover how contradicting those verses are and then boooom.... Apostacy!

    Have you ever wondered why Mohamed did not order his followers to collect the whole quran in one book? Why Abubaker (the 1st Calif) did not do it? Why Omar did not? Only Othman the 3rd Calif who was just like the other Califs murdered and even labeled Murtad by Aisha and the rest? Even Abubaker's son was one of the guys who took turns at beating him before cutting his throat?

    The Quran as we know it was collected and edited by Othman. That is nothing near "Allah had preserved it from coruption" that Muslims say all the time!

    ...
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #103 - January 09, 2010, 07:29 PM

    Also where do you get your historical data from if you don't follow hadiths?  ie, how do you know it was the pagans attacking a peaceful budding muslim community?  why not the other way around?  what source are you using?


    lol He's obviously using the Hadiths and the Seerahs based of them. A Quran-only Muslim is a transient phenomenon that only exists when the Muslim is faced with a Murtad. But the moment the murtad dissappears so does the Quran-only Muslim.  Cheesy Fascinating no?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #104 - January 09, 2010, 07:30 PM

    Iblis
    It's not my intention to insult anyone. Muslims beleive Christians and Jews will go to heaven -


    5.72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

    5.73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

    Most Christians believe in the trinity and that Jesus was the son of God.  That would mean that they are joining partners with Allah according to your religion and are therefore guilty of shirk.  Heck according to those verses Madre Theresa is burning in hell

    In addition, you may well disagree, but it was not a 'mission of Islam' to rid Arabia of paganism. Rather the wars during this time resulted from the Pagan Arabs persecuting Muslims for wanting to peacefully spread the word of Islam.


    Hardly, the kaaba was also sacred to them and they didn't like the fact that Muhammad was trying to take it all for himself and disrupt the present system.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #105 - January 09, 2010, 07:33 PM

    You missed my post then?

    Also where do you get your historical data from if you don't follow hadiths?  ie, how do you know it was the pagans attacking a peaceful budding muslim community?  why not the other way around?  what source are you using?


    Agree, one must also keep in mind that it is the victors who write history.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #106 - January 09, 2010, 07:46 PM

    Peruvian skies and barbarella,

    here is the translation from Shabbir Ahmed:

    I have never heard of Shabbir Ahmed LoL.  The 3 mainstream (& honest according to Arabs, muslim or otherwise) translators are those Peruvian listed - lets stick to them unless you are dubious of their credibility Wink

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #107 - January 09, 2010, 07:57 PM

    RIBS, Islam is very tolerant to other religions. Please see the 'Hell, Eternity, and reason' section of my blog for some of my views.

    Cool - is Allah tolerant of polytheists & atheists according to the Quran?  Was Mohammed tolerant of pagan worship, and the hundreds of idols inside Kaaba.  Did he pick them up, dust & polish them and hand them back to the pagans and say "to you your religion and to me be mine?"  Or did he smash them all, and sley the pagans until the Kaaba belonged to him? 

    Peaceful beginning? 
    Peaceful during the middle ages?
    Peaceful now?

    Here's a quote from the noble Quran, that may give an inkling as to how this culture of barbarism & conquest developed (there are plethora of quotes of equal similitude and had you been prepared to accept the hadith, other than the ones of your choice, it would have been far, far stronger with elements of torture added into the mix):

    Quran 8:39-40  Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven them, but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #108 - January 09, 2010, 08:02 PM

    Iblis
    It's not my intention to insult anyone. Muslims beleive Christians and Jews will go to heaven - there is even a good argument that all monothestic believers will go to heaven - please see the section of my blog I mention above. Compared to some of the other main religions this is a very tolerant view.

    In addition, you may well disagree, but it was not a 'mission of Islam' to rid Arabia of paganism. Rather the wars during this time resulted from the Pagan Arabs persecuting Muslims for wanting to peacefully spread the word of Islam. Although in later generations some wars may have been unjustly started by Muslims, this is contradictory to the teachings of the Quran. Please see the 'terrorism' section of my blog for more detailed analysis.


    Could Allah not think of any better way of converting these 'miguided' people in a more peaceful way (he's omnipotent and they were his creation) as opposed to sending in his bloodthirsty lieutenant to do all his work?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #109 - January 09, 2010, 08:13 PM

    Abuyunis, please forgive me if I took you back to Circumutilation...

    what do you say about these verses? I have already mentioned them in another thread, but worth mentioning here, and I just love the picture that shows hw Circumutilation is not an Islamic practice. It was way before Mohamed. Some thousands of years before...




    This image is a very good evidence that Circumcision has nothing to do with Islam. It is an old Egyptian custom some 1000s of years before Islam.




    According to Quran, the holiest of all books according to Islam. Allah is the best of creators. So Circumcision if you discard all the hadeaths that encourage or endorse MGM, the quran certainly states that Allah have exquisitely created man in the best form (got it? best form, which means no more snip snip, no more cutting, no more adjustments.... he was created by the all knowing best of the best creators). The following are the most well known verses from the Quran that explains that.

    The best verse I like on the subject is the last on down there. Iblis (not our Kaffirist of course!) is actually challenging Allah and tells him that he will make people disobey Allah and change his creation. So in my humble opinion those who mutilate and change their children bodies permanently (remember that cutting off their nails or hair is not changing creation, these are temporarily cleaning measures that will grow back in several days).


    ________________________________

    سورة التين
    لَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ فِي أَحْسَنِ تَقْوِيمٍ ﴿٤﴾
    Certainly We created man in the best make. (95:4)
    ________________________________

    سورة المؤمنون
    ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا ثُمَّ أَنشَأْنَاهُ خَلْقًا آخَرَ ۚ فَتَبَارَكَ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ الْخَالِقِينَ ﴿١٤﴾
    Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators. (23:14)
    ________________________________

    سورة الصافات
    أَتَدْعُونَ بَعْلًا وَتَذَرُونَ أَحْسَنَ الْخَالِقِينَ ﴿١٢٥﴾
    What! do you call upon Ba'l and forsake the best of the creators, (37:125)

    ________________________________

    سورة النساء
    وَلَأُضِلَّنَّهُمْ وَلَأُمَنِّيَنَّهُمْ وَلَآمُرَنَّهُمْ فَلَيُبَتِّكُنَّ آذَانَ الْأَنْعَامِ وَلَآمُرَنَّهُمْ فَلَيُغَيِّرُنَّ خَلْقَ اللَّهِ ۚ وَمَن يَتَّخِذِ الشَّيْطَانَ وَلِيًّا مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ فَقَدْ خَسِرَ خُسْرَانًا مُّبِينًا ﴿١١٩﴾
    And most certainly I will lead them astray and excite in them vain desires, and bid them so that they shall slit the ears of the cattle, and most certainly I will bid them so that they shall alter Allah's creation; and whoever takes the Shaitan for a guardian rather than Allah he indeed shall suffer a manifest loss. (4:119)
    ________________________________

    ...
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #110 - January 09, 2010, 08:48 PM

    WRT circumcision. From a Muslim website (The Revival), the following:

    ?Any permanent form of contraception such as permanent sterilisation, the removal of ovaries, vasectomy etc is not permissible unless there is a risk of serious illness or death if it is not performed. The reasons for this are as follows:

    1. A person is taking an unnecessary risk to their health by having such an operation or procedure.
    2. A person is permanently changing the nature of the body from what Allah has created.?

    I asked:

    ?Why then is it permissible (recommended?) for men to be circumcised, as this also has health risks and is permanently changing the nature of the body??

    The answer was:

    ?Circumcision is prescribed as a preventative measure against infection and disease. And therefore clearly has health benefits. By removing of the skin your not changing the nature of the ding-dong it is still very much in tact and can perform its function. Where as with permanent contraception this is not the case. See the difference??

    Er...

    I since found out that circumcision is, apparently, obligatory for ?all male  Muslims? (looks like I'm not allowed to post the link... I can tell you a great circumcision joke instead?)

    Regards

    B
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #111 - January 09, 2010, 08:52 PM

    Why are my quotation marks coming out as question marks?

    Anyway, another thing.

    WRT the Qur'an.

    I asked a very religious Muslim frind of mine why the Qur'an wasn't written in the order in which it was revealed. First he said, "Oh! Isn't it?" Then he said he'd go and ask the Imam, but that was a while ago now...

    So can anyone answer that? Doesn't it mean that the Qur'an has obviously been meddled with by men? (In more ways than one...)

    B
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #112 - January 09, 2010, 08:55 PM

    Abrogation, anyone?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #113 - January 09, 2010, 09:37 PM

    Why are my quotation marks coming out as question marks?

    Anyway, another thing.

    WRT the Qur'an.

    I asked a very religious Muslim frind of mine why the Qur'an wasn't written in the order in which it was revealed. First he said, "Oh! Isn't it?" Then he said he'd go and ask the Imam, but that was a while ago now...

    So can anyone answer that? Doesn't it mean that the Qur'an has obviously been meddled with by men? (In more ways than one...)

    B


    it is a very good indication that the Quran just like any other religious textbook could and had been changed or played with!

    ...
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #114 - January 09, 2010, 09:42 PM

    Quote
    Why are my quotation marks coming out as question marks?


    I get that when I copy paste from a Word document.

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #115 - January 09, 2010, 10:19 PM

    Which I did. Thanks
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #116 - January 09, 2010, 10:54 PM

    Peruvian skies and barbarella,

    here is the translation from Shabbir Ahmed:

    ''And such of your women as no longer expect menstruation, as well as those women who do not have menstruation (for any physiological reason), to resolve your doubts, their waiting period is ordained to be three months. And for those who are pregnant, the waiting period ends when they deliver their burden. And anyone who is mindful of Allah, He will make his situation easy for him.''

    The verse doesn't say 'as well as those women who do not have menstruation ''because of their young age''. To assume this part of the verse is refering to pre-pubescent girls is therefore your own extrapolated interpretation. I understand many men in the past have also inetrpreted it as refering to pre-pubescent girls, but the fact is this is still only their own interpretation. To say this verse gives men the right to marry pre-pubescent girls is not warranted.

    How about we stick to trusted translators rather than those who translate with personal bias? None of the trusted translators mention psychological reasons in brackets, neither do the trusted tafsirs talk of such a thing. Instead they talk of under-aged girls.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #117 - January 09, 2010, 11:12 PM

    In addition, you may well disagree, but it was not a 'mission of Islam' to rid Arabia of paganism. Rather the wars during this time resulted from the Pagan Arabs persecuting Muslims for wanting to peacefully spread the word of Islam. Although in later generations some wars may have been unjustly started by Muslims, this is contradictory to the teachings of the Quran. Please see the 'terrorism' section of my blog for more detailed analysis.


    The following sahih hadeeth contradict you

    Quote
    Narrated Said bin Jubair: Ibn 'Abbas said, "Thursday! What (great thing) took place on Thursday!" Then he started weeping till his tears wetted the gravels of the ground . Then he said, "On Thursday the illness of Allah's Apostle was aggravated and he said, "Fetch me writing materials so that I may have something written to you after which you will never go astray." The people (present there) differed in this matter and people should not differ before a prophet. They said, "Allah's Apostle is seriously sick.' The Prophet said, "Let me alone, as the state in which I am now, is better than what you are calling me for." The Prophet on his death-bed, gave three orders saying, "Expel the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula, respect and give gifts to the foreign delegates as you have seen me dealing with them." I forgot the third (order)" (Ya'qub bin Muhammad said, "I asked Al-Mughira bin 'Abdur-Rahman about the Arabian Peninsula and he said, 'It comprises Mecca, Medina, Al-Yama-ma and Yemen." Ya'qub added, "And Al-Arj, the beginning of Tihama.") - Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288

     

    Quote
    It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim. - Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4366

     

    but then they are probably among the hadeeth that you reject.

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #118 - January 09, 2010, 11:28 PM

    Quote
    . Rather the wars during this time resulted from the Pagan Arabs persecuting Muslims for wanting to peacefully spread the word of Islam.


    I've never believed that, instinctively. Those 'pagans' probably believed in multiplicity of worship - why would they have a problem with another sect? Unless Mo and his merry men were just dead set on fighting them, and retroactively justified it saying they were stopped from 'peacefully' spreading the word of Islam.

    And that's another thing - allow us to peacefully spread Islam, or we'll fight / battle / kill you. Its resonated over time and has always been a hair-trigger justification for violence. Just say people are stopping you from 'peacefully' spreading Islam and you have them in your sights.

    All of this, of course, with no reciprocity or allowances for the peaceful spreading of other religions in domains controlled by Islamic power. How repetitious Islam is.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #119 - January 09, 2010, 11:50 PM

    You know, it is the way the junkie cannot stay away from the heroin.  I just had to come and read some posts, even though I was determined not to. 

    It's not my intention to insult anyone. Muslims beleive Christians and Jews will go to heaven - there is even a good argument that all monothestic believers will go to heaven


    This is an insult itself, b/c it's as though we don't know our own past histories, and our own families.  You may believe, along with a small number of heterodox Muslims, that all good Jews &   Christians and maybe some other monotheists will go to heaven (tres tolerant), but you know and I know and RIBS knows and Berbs knows and all of us know that this is not what "Muslims believe" in a general sense.  I personally rather admire those Muslims who will say "Yes, this is what I believe, and if you don't like it, too bad," rather than being all wishy washy about it.  At least you know where you stand with them, and it's not as though it matters anyway, since there is no evidence at all that this heaven exists.


    Quote
    In addition, you may well disagree, but it was not a 'mission of Islam' to rid Arabia of paganism.


    Of course it was.  Your self-proclaimed "tolerant" version of Islam doesn't even make room for nice pagans in  heaven. 

    [this space for rent]
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