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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hello people

 (Read 113808 times)
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #210 - January 13, 2010, 06:04 PM

    You debate really well AbuYunus, it's refreshing to see, I'm sure it's a bit daunting to feel like your being interrogated, but you've given better, clearer replies than any of my family ever did, without resorting to defensive language. Respeck! Afro

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #211 - January 13, 2010, 06:32 PM

    You debate really well AbuYunus, it's refreshing to see, I'm sure it's a bit daunting to feel like your being interrogated, but you've given better, clearer replies than any of my family ever did, without resorting to defensive language. Respeck! Afro


    +1

    Respekt Abuyunis2 Ali G style!



     

    ...
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #212 - January 13, 2010, 06:58 PM

    for real, fankoo very much

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #213 - January 13, 2010, 07:01 PM

    +1

    Respekt Abuyunis2 Ali G style!
    (Clicky for piccy!)


     


    How sad is it, my ex husband was the spitting image of Ali G, minus the outfit, many people said the same thing too.   Cheesy

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #214 - January 15, 2010, 12:43 AM

    Hi abuyunus,
    Theres a verse in Quran that bothers me ALOT.
    "Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) separate them in beds and last) beat them.   But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

    Can you please explain the last part?


    Also, with regards to the part after it, would you consider ''and if they pay you heed'' to be an accurate translation as in linguistically true to what the text says?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #215 - January 15, 2010, 01:04 AM

    I'm afraid I find abuyunus's avatar rather objectionable..

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #216 - January 15, 2010, 02:03 AM

    I'm afraid I find abuyunus's avatar rather objectionable..


    why is it? Abuyunis thinks he is scoring, and that is fine . Although with respect, he did not satisfy me when answered my Quran suras questions Afro

    ...
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #217 - January 15, 2010, 02:42 AM

    why is it? Abuyunis thinks he is scoring, and that is fine . Although with respect, he did not satisfy me when answered my Quran suras questions Afro


    Nah it has nothing to do with Abuyunus as a person.  He seems to be quite a gentleman and an honest, caring individual.    Its just that I hate Arsenal...

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #218 - January 15, 2010, 11:23 AM

    hey RIBS, I don't really think I'm scoring tbh (it's not my intention 'to score'!), it's just my favourite pic of the best footballer in the world - I like the passion on his face.

    ras111 I have to say I've really enjoyed our little science debates - you always make very relevant points. which football team do you support by the way? - please don't say Chelsea otherwise me and yous r gonna have problems!

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #219 - January 15, 2010, 11:47 AM

    abuyunus2 - Do you have an answer to my questions? Or are you only responding to the questions of selected people here?

    For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who refuse to understand, no explanation is possible.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #220 - January 15, 2010, 12:51 PM

    Hi Ibn Saba,

    I mentioned a little earlier that I will try to answer the majority of questions over the weekend - especially the questions that require more in-depth answers - since I am usually very busy during the week, I hope this is OK. Of course as I have mentioned I am not an expert/scholar on Islam but simply offer my own considered interpretations.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #221 - January 15, 2010, 12:55 PM


    ras111 I have to say I've really enjoyed our little science debates - you always make very relevant points. which football team do you support by the way? - please don't say Chelsea otherwise me and yous r gonna have problems!


    No not the pensioners, its United

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #222 - January 15, 2010, 12:57 PM

    hey RIBS, I don't really think I'm scoring tbh (it's not my intention 'to score'!), it's just my favourite pic of the best footballer in the world - I like the passion on his face.

    ras111 I have to say I've really enjoyed our little science debates - you always make very relevant points. which football team do you support by the way? - please don't say Chelsea otherwise me and yous r gonna have problems!


    No hard feelings Abu. I was just teasing you. You were a great sport indeed.  far away hug

    ...
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #223 - January 15, 2010, 01:09 PM

    @ Yunus

    65:4 said: those who did not menstruate (there' no "yet" in the verse.) I understand it as "those who did not menstruate (when divorced)" should wait 3 months before remarrying (after all, the verse was talking about divorcing *WOMEN*).

    Anyway, here's an excellent article by Sam Shamoun.

    **answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/marriage_age.html**
    Using Tafsir + Hadith, Sam Shamoun did 2 things:
    1- He proved that 4:6 contradicts 65:4 on the age of marriage.
    2- Muhammed violated 4:6

    I agree with Sam Shmoun's analysis (which was based on Hadith & Tasfsir) 100%. The *great scholars* contradicted themselves when interpreting both 4:6 and 65:4. Our great scholars never cease to astonish!

    And by the way, Sam Shamoun noted that Bukhari was the *first scholar* to have the opinion that 65:4 implied marriage before puberty was OK. So it's no wonder that the rest of all the scholars followed Bukhari's opinion on this verse (while they contradicted themselves on 4:6). [scholars are repackaging of each other].

    As for Muslims who follow Tafsir 4:6 DOES define the age of marriage to be reaching puberty (or 15 years). And that's what Shamoun did! He laughed at the Tafsir for defining the age of marriage to be reaching puberty WHILE again according to Tafsir, 65:4 implies that pre-puscent girls can be married. So again, as per Tafsir there IS a contradiction and Shamoun pointed that out.

    The language of the verse didn't change in anyway to indicate a shift from talking about women to talking about children. So by default the verse is still talking about divorcing women. A woman who was divorced while not having a period must wait 3 months. (because she might be pregnant). As you know, the only reason for a waiting period of 3 months is to avoid a pregnancy wrongly associated with the new husband.

    In any case, the point is for women who did not menstruate (for whatever reason, other than old age/pregnancy) then they should wait 3 months to be sure they're not pregnant (some womendo miss their periods for as simple a reason as stress... so the best option in this case is to wait 3 months to make sure there's no pregnancy)

    As for why every single scholar is of the same opinion as of Bukhari, it's because Bukhari said so... in case you haven't noticed, he's practically a second prophet for Muslims.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #224 - January 15, 2010, 01:52 PM

    Hi Ibn Saba,

    I mentioned a little earlier that I will try to answer the majority of questions over the weekend - especially the questions that require more in-depth answers - since I am usually very busy during the week, I hope this is OK. Of course as I have mentioned I am not an expert/scholar on Islam but simply offer my own considered interpretations.


    Yes, I'm aware that you don't have the time to sit here all day responding to all the questions being put forward. That's why I asked a rather short question which doesn't require an indeth answer at all.

    The question I asked doesn't require a Scholar, and I'm confident in your knowledge, which would enable you to answer it sufficientely.

    For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who refuse to understand, no explanation is possible.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #225 - January 15, 2010, 02:39 PM

    @ Yunus

    I just thought I'd share my views regarding slavery with you.


    -1- God Detests Slavery

    Slavery is an age old injustice which existed eons before Islam and continued on to be an accepted practice throughout the ages until it was abolished by the new world order only 150 years ago.  

    Islam highly commended the freeing of slaves as an act of charity even though it didn't impose emancipation. 1400 years ago, slave emancipation was a way to atone for sins as well. I know this is no where near enough... but my own interpretation is that there was a message to be understood from this. First, I'll list a few verses as proof that emancipation was recommended as a charitable act and a venue to atone for sins.

    Three examples from the Quran where emancipation of slaves was considered an act of charity:
     
    90:11-16
    But he (man) would not attempt the uphill road,
    And what will make you comprehend what the uphill road is?
    (It is) the setting free of a slave, or the giving of food in a day of hunger to an orphan, (or a relative), or to the poor man lying in the dust.

    2:177
    It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in God and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for (the emancipation of) the slaves,and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of conflicts-- these are they who are true (to themselves) and these are they who guard (against evil).

    9:60
    The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the slaves and the debtors, and for the cause of God, and (for) the wayfarer; a duty imposed by God. God is Knower, Wise.

    Two examples from the Quran where emancipation was a venue for atonement for sins:

    5:89
    Allah does not call you to account for what is vain in your oaths, but He calls you to account for the making of deliberate oaths; so its expiation is the feeding of ten poor men out of the middling (food) you feed your families with, or their clothing, or the freeing of a neck; but whosoever cannot find (means) then fasting for three days; this is the expiation of your oaths when you swear; and guard your oaths. Thus does Allah make clear to you His communications, that you may be Fateful

    58:3
    And (as for) those who put away their wives by likening their backs to the backs of their mothers then would recall what they said, they should free a captive before they touch each other; to that you are admonished (to conform); and Allah is Aware of what you do..


    Islam came to people (Arabs) who held slavery very dear to their hearts. Just imagine what could have happened if the Quran outright demanded emancipation. People would have rejected Islam in its entirety. Instead, the solution for that time (1400 years ago) was to try to corrode slavery little by little until (I believe) Muslims have reached a reasonable level of maturity to understand that God detests slavery and this atonement for sins by setting slaves free was simply to send them a message they could understand when they became mature enough. Unfortunately, however, many Muslims throughout history were blinded by their self interest... and that's why I believe slavery never faded away in the Muslim world. In fact Muslims (like the Ottomons) went even further as to break the rules and enslave non-combatants


    It can be understood from the Quran itself that not all matters of life has been discussed, and many questions were left unanswered, all to make life easier.

    5:101
    O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; God pardons this, and God is Forgiving, Forbearing.
    5:102
    A folk before you asked (for such disclosures) and then disbelieved therein.

    5:102 explains 5:101 quite well... the 2 verses simply say: don't keep asking questions on everything, lest God reveals answers you'd dislike and reject, like others before you did. Conclusion? The Quran never claimed to have provided answers to everything, an indication of flexibility. (As far as theology is concerned, The Quran did cover everything).  


    -2- Is Enslaving Non-Combatants Permissible in Islam?

    War booty?

    War booty is a term used in international law to describe militarily useful property seized from an enemy in a time of war. Combatants are permitted to seize such property as is necessary to conduct a war, such as food, transportation, communications, weapons and fuel. The purpose of such a seizure may be to assist the combatant's own war effort, or to put the property beyond the enemy's use.

    The law makes a clear distinction between war booty and common pillage of civilian property.


    **//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_booty**

    In the old times humans were part of the War Booty. Not only anything that was used in the battelfield was fair game for booty, humans captured in the battlefield were also part of the booty.

    Question: If owning slaves was allowed in Islam by purchasing them or if they were captured in the battlefield (war booty), then how come there were female war captives? Women were not allowed to come to the battlefield back then, were they?

    Ans: Some of the Arab tribes back then adopted a war strategy which involved bringing the women of the warring soldiers to the battlefield and putting them in the rear of the warring army. This strategy was meant to incite the soldiers to fight with their utmost ferocity, knowing that if they lost the battle, their women waiting in the battlefield would be captured and become slaves.

    This was known as Ta'aziz (reinforcing the soldiers' desire to fight).


    Does this mean that non-combatants were off-limits? Yes. And the proof is clear from two places from the Quran:

    1- It makes no sense at all to impose taxes (Jizyah) on non-combatants when you think that they are your slaves.

    9:29
    قَاتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ
    Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    2- God ordered the Muslims of Medina to give refuge to Meccan women who converted to Islam and ran away from their families. In addition, if someone wanted to marry one of the female refugees, God ordered the Muslims to pay the husband whose wife deserted him, after her conversion to Islam, God ordered the Muslims to pay him back his dowry before being able to marry his wife.

    So what we have here is a Muslim woman fleeing from Mecca, an enemy state of Medina and YET a Muslim man was not allowed to marry her unless he paid back the money her husband gave her as dowry!

    So how can anyone imagine that Quran would allow Muslim men to enslave non-combatants when they weren't even allowed to marry Muslim women fleeing Mecca until they paid back their Meccan husbands?  

    60:10-11
    يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا جَاءكُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَاتُ مُهَاجِرَاتٍ فَامْتَحِنُوهُنَّ اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِإِيمَانِهِنَّ فَإِنْ عَلِمْتُمُوهُنَّ مُؤْمِنَاتٍ فَلَا تَرْجِعُوهُنَّ إِلَى الْكُفَّارِ لَا هُنَّ حِلٌّ لَّهُمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحِلُّونَ لَهُنَّ وَآتُوهُم مَّا أَنفَقُوا وَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ أَن تَنكِحُوهُنَّ إِذَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ وَلَا تُمْسِكُوا بِعِصَمِ الْكَوَافِرِ وَاسْأَلُوا مَا أَنفَقْتُمْ وَلْيَسْأَلُوا مَا أَنفَقُوا ذَلِكُمْ حُكْمُ اللَّهِ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ ?10?  وَإِن فَاتَكُمْ شَيْءٌ مِّنْ أَزْوَاجِكُمْ إِلَى الْكُفَّارِ فَعَاقَبْتُمْ فَآتُوا الَّذِينَ ذَهَبَتْ أَزْوَاجُهُم مِّثْلَ مَا أَنفَقُوا وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ الَّذِي أَنتُم بِهِ مُؤْمِنُونَ ?11?  
    O you who believe! when believing women come to you flying, then examine them; Allah knows best their faith; then if you find them to be believing women, do not send them back to the unbelievers, neither are these (women) lawful for them, nor are those (men) lawful for them, and give them what they have spent; and no blame attaches to you in marrying them when you give them their dowries; and hold not to the ties of marriage of unbelieving women, and ask for what you have spent, and kt them ask for what they have spent. That is Allah's judgment; He judges between you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise. And if anything (out of the dowries) of your wives has passed away from you to the unbelievers, then your turn comes, give to those whose wives have gone away the like of what they have spent, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah in Whom you believe.

    3- History books, written by Sunni historians, contain contradictory accounts. Some accounts support the notion that non-combatants are off limits and some imply that non-comatants are fair game (contradicting other accounts and the Quran itself).

    One MAJOR Sunni account which reinforces the notin that non-combatants are off limits, in agreement with the Quran, is the Covenant of Umar after conquering Jerusalem:

    Quote
    In the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Beneficent. This is what the slave of Allah, Umar b.Al-Khattab, the Amir of the believers, has offered the people of Illyaa? of security granting them Amaan (protection) for their selves, their money, their churches, their children, their lowly and their innocent, and the remainder of their people. Their churches are not to be taken, nor are they to be destroyed, nor are they to be degraded or belittled, neither are their crosses or their money, and they are not to be forced to change their religion, nor is any one of them to be harmed. No Jews are to live with them in Illyaa? and it is required of the people of Illyaa? to pay the Jizya, like the people of the cities. It is also required of them to remove the Romans from the land; and whoever amongst the people of Illyaa? that wishes to depart with their selves and their money with the Romans, leaving their trading goods and children behind, then their selves, their trading goods and their children are secure until they reach their destination.


    But the Jews were later allowed in by Umar (breaking an age old Roman/Bezyntine banning)
    **mideastweb.org/covenantofomar.htm**

    Bottom line: Non-combatants are off-limits in Islam.


    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    To summarize:

    1- The Quran made freeing slaves a charitable act and part of where ALMS should be spent. PLUS freeing slaves is a major venue to atone for sins, some as common as taking an oath in vain. This system should have eaten away at slavery little by little. [there are Hadiths forcing slave owners to allow their slaves to earn money to free themselves, other Hadiths saying that freeing them would keep the Hell fire forbidden on the bodies of men who free slaves, etc].

    2- The Quran described slave emancipation as a difficult uphill climb, hinting at how difficult it is for man to abolish slavery.

    3- The Quran in PLAIN clear words told Muslims to not keep asking too many questions lest the proper ruling regarding them be revealed and they'd find it so hard to accept them and then reject them! What does this mean? Did God send down all the *proper* rules pertaining to how to live this life? Ans: NO! We humans can't cope with God's standards. God let us practice things that if we asked Him about them, He would have made them forbidden!

    4- Unlike wine which was forbidden in stages, slavery was too difficult to forbid even in stages. God knows His slaves and He knew they couldn't have been able to accept abolishing slavery even in stages. Instead, Islam installed a unique system of freeing slaves meant to erradicate slavery little by little. Muslims, however, have always cared for their own self interest.. In other words, the failure of the application of this first system of slave emancipation is OUR failure, not God's!

    I don't know if you remember this, but it is reported in Islamic history that at some point (in the Golden Age), people were so rich they COULD NOT find anyone who would accept ALMS!!! But what about the SLAVES?!!! Aren't they part of the people who DESERVE to receive ALMS for their emancipation? Now if this story is true, that people were so rich as to not find anyone who would accept ALMS, then weren't those people SO EVIL as to not apply God's rules and spend these ALMS in freeing slaves? If they heeded God's words, then slavery would have been dead at one point in Islamic history (and for the first time in human history)... people would have tasted, for the first time, the freedom that comes along with freeing the slaves in masses.

    The Quran implanted an emancipation system meant to end slavery seemlessly. If *at least* ALMS were spent in freeing salves, this goal would have been reached at least at one point in Islamic history.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #226 - January 15, 2010, 02:47 PM

    By the way, welcome debunker.  Smiley

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #227 - January 15, 2010, 02:52 PM

    Thanks for the welcome Ella Smiley

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #228 - January 15, 2010, 02:53 PM

    Debunker it would be nice if you would tell us a little about yourself, and where you stand with Islam..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #229 - January 15, 2010, 03:10 PM

    AbuYunus, hi.

    Do you think any major prophecies that are stated in Islam, could happen soon? Such as the coming of Dajjal, return of Is'a? Gog and Magog? Imam Mahdi?

    Do you think any minor signs are appearing? If so, can you state examples?


    Hi Ibn Saba,

    I went back to relocate your question. tbh I've never known what to make of these signs since a lot of them come from hadith. God tells us in the Quran that Jesus was not killed and that he was 'raised up' - will he ever return to Earth to die as a mortal?, possibly it would make sense, but I don't know. The Gog and Magog people are mentioned in the Quran as a sign for the end of time but the Quran does not give any details regarding their nature. Although some hadith suggest they may be non-human (ET?!), I cannot comment on their accuracy. Regarding Dajjal/Imam Mahdi again these are taken from the hadith and I would not like to comment on their accuracy i.e. sometimes these stories in the hadith are borrowed from other religions, thus the whole antichrist/dajjal thing may possibly be conjecture rather than the Prophets actual words.

    I've never paid much attention to the 'minor signs'.

    (ps I will write a new entry in my blog soon addressing why hadith and tafsir in general shouldn't be considered a credible source of history or necessarilly accurate accounts of the Prophets words/actions)

    Of course the knowledge of the end of time is with God alone. Do I think it will be any time soon? No. The reason is (and this is of course my personal view) that I think we as humans have achieved a hell of a lot in recent times and we still have the potential to achieve many more great things. Humanity does face some problems but I still think we have amazing potential. I think things would need to go downhill somewhat considerably before God decides to call time on us. These are of course purely my personal conjecture.

    I hope you found my answer of some use.

    Abu Yunus

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #230 - January 15, 2010, 03:17 PM

    @ Islame

    I guess it's rather clear I'm a Muslim.

    I used to be a Sunni Muslim, now I'm just a Muslim. Sunnism implies that one should be led by the opinion of scholars (most notably Bukhari/Muslim/Ibn Kathir).. .I simply reject the authority of *ANY* scholar. This does NOT necessarily mean I always disagree with them.. I simply read their work and decide for myself. That being said, I'd like to clarify that I am NOT a Quran Only Muslim. I simply don't think that Sunni Hadith scholars have the exclusive right to decide that they can reject hundreds of thousands of Hadiths while other Muslims can't reject Hadiths from within their collections.

    And by the way, various views on rejection/accepting Hadith have existed since 100 years after the death of the prophet, starting with the Mutazilites who only accepted Mutawatir Hadith (roughly ~10% of today's Hadith collection).

    Many Sunni scholars (old and new) wanted to add to the cleanup efforts by Bukhari et al but they were vehemently attacked by the followers of Bukhari et al.

    Bukhari et al started with 2,000,000 Hadiths and reduced them to less than 20,000 (total) depending solely on scrutinizing the chain of narration without caring at all about the contents of Hadiths. This resulted in contradictory Hadiths and Hadiths contradicting with Quran (I have many such examples).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #231 - January 15, 2010, 03:17 PM

    debunker, boy am I glad to see you - your knowledge of the Quran appears to be at least 20-fold compared to mine!! I mainly post at the weekends so hopefully I'll bump into you then.  Smiley

    Take care
    Abu Yunus

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #232 - January 15, 2010, 03:31 PM

    debunker, I agree the hadith and tafsir are a critical issue. I don't think I'd really class myself as a Quran-only Muslim either, but I must admit I'm very sceptical of them as a whole - for example if I thought there were things in the Quran that are corruptions, I would probably reject the whole of the Quran. Since hadiths are written by fallible human beings I realise of course it would be wrong to be so absolute with hadith. In addition of course hadith are only labelled 'sahih' by men - I honestly don't think we have any absolute way of knowing which hadith are doccumentations of the true words/actions of the Prophet.

    ps this is something that I debate with my wife quite frequently so sorry for rambling on. I hope to write a blog entry on the topic soon and would appreciate your critical analysis.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #233 - January 15, 2010, 03:41 PM

    Quote from: debunker
    4- Unlike wine which was forbidden in stages, slavery was too difficult to forbid even in stages. God knows His slaves and He knew they couldn't have been able to accept abolishing slavery even in stages. Instead, Islam installed a unique system of freeing slaves meant to erradicate slavery little by little. Muslims, however, have always cared for their own self interest.. In other words, the failure of the application of this first system of slave emancipation is OUR failure, not God's!


    Did the american government know it's people better then?  because slavery was abolished faster in a kaffir land than ever under Islam's system.

    It took time to eradicate racism, but once it was decided slavery was wrong, it happened regardless of the views of those who wished to retain slaves, even leading to a war to free them.

    Could allah not have done it this way? 

    Are the views of mere humans better than that of a god, if that god outright forbade slavery?


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #234 - January 15, 2010, 03:52 PM

    I think I understand now. Allah was willing to make compromises in the interest of marketing himself. Giving the people the choice between Allah and the evils of slavery would have been too bold a move and he would have lost out. So his plan was to allow the evil to continue and hopefully ween the arabs off of slavery. Except it didn't work out like that and thousands of people suffered horrible lives for hundreds of years because of it.

    So your Allah is timid and ineffective?

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #235 - January 15, 2010, 03:54 PM

    Do you think if you came to a people, 1400 years ago, and told them that men falling in the battle field are to be freed, they would have accepted your advice? Even if you claimed to be a prophet, in all likelihood they'd reject your entire message... Claiming that enslaving men warring against you is immoral would have sounded completely insane. In fact, this idea would have sounded completely insane even for people living 200 years ago.

    Besides, can you imagine the disadvantage Muslims would suffer if they were ordered to free the captives of their enemies, while they (the Muslims) were not to be treated in the same manner?

    Besides, the US didn't set slaves free in an instance. It took hundreds of years after kidnapping them from their homelands (they weren't even combatants) to free them. It took a bloody war which almost tore the country apart and caused the death of 600,000 Americans. And all of this because the south didn't want to free the slaves whose ancestors were kidnapped in the first place.

    Finally, you can't isolate the American experience from the human slavery experience. Slavery existed for in the West (Europeans even enslaved each other) since forever and the West started combating slavery only 200 years ago... What's 200 years compared to thousand upon thousand of years?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #236 - January 15, 2010, 03:57 PM

    I think I understand now. Allah was willing to make compromises in the interest of marketing himself. Giving the people the choice between Allah and the evils of slavery would have been too bold a move and he would have lost out. So his plan was to allow the evil to continue and hopefully ween the arabs off of slavery. Except it didn't work out like that and thousands of people suffered horrible lives for hundreds of years because of it.

    So your Allah is timid and ineffective?


    Think of it this way... if God simply said NO slavery, then there would have been NO religion which commends emancipation, and ordains paying ALMS to free slaves... the failure of this system is our failure.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #237 - January 15, 2010, 03:58 PM

    But didnt slavery last die out in the muslim world?  The rest of humanity gave up slaves,with or without Allahs intervention.  Its basic human rights, not divine wisdom in the Quran.


    Did the american government know it's people better then?  because slavery was abolished faster in a kaffir land than ever under Islam's system.

    It took time to eradicate racism, but once it was decided slavery was wrong, it happened regardless of the views of those who wished to retain slaves, even leading to a war to free them.

    Could allah not have done it this way?  

    Are the views of mere humans better than that of a god, if that god outright forbade slavery?



    I dont think Allah had that much desire to eradicate racism, otherwise he would have made a start by setting his own prophet up as an example, by ensuring Muhammed did not own a slave.  As far as I know he had at least a couple, Maria who he used for shaggage, and a black one who he got to carry his baggage whilst he moved on camels  Wink

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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #238 - January 15, 2010, 03:59 PM

    @ Yunus

    I hope you wouldn't mind if I shared my views regarding Quran and science with you.

    Many Muslims like to pretend that the Quran is a science book. They twist verses, and stretch them to great lengths to make the verses say things they aren't actually saying. If they thought for a second, the Quran was never meant to be a science book nor did it address science in any way, shape or form.

    My question to such Muslim is: Did you really expect God to explain to ancient people advanced science? For example, did you expect that God would instruct any of His prophets to teach the people that the earth was like a ball rotating around itself in front of the sun?! Why not also tell them that there's really no sky and all what they see at night is the space but they see blue at day because of the interraction of the sun's light with the atmosphere? Why not also tell them that the earth revolves around the sun and that's why we have the 4 seasons. God never did that with any prophet. (Just imagine telling the ancients that the firm Earth they stood on is moving!)

    When a religion is new, you can't ask too much of the people. They already have enough trouble accepting your new religious idea and you want to throw in weird science along with it? How about also explaining every single scientific fact, the ones we already know and all the ones we can ever dream of learning. Why didn't God reveal ALL this science along with His spirtual message?

    Did I just ask a stupid question? I believe yes. How can you expect people to accept all that. In all likelihood, people will reject all this science along with the spirtual message at first sight of this new prophet and the new religion is dead even before it is born and nothing would have reached us, no science and no spiritual message.

    A prophet (false or not) when he asks people to believe in his deity, he's simply asking them to do the same thing they've been doing since forever: worship (only a different/one god). He's asking them to believe in a different set of supernatural stories, but believing in supernatural stories is all they've been doing all their lives. So there is already a "need" to believe in supernatural stories. But when he imposes meaningless science on them (one they can't test by any means they have and EVEN CONTRADICTS their observations), they will reject the science and the new set of supernatural tales and stick to their old gods. They're not used to believing in meaningless (even outrageous) facts/science but they have been trained all their lives to "need" to belive in what is *beyond nature*.

    The Quran never mentioned any unobservable natural phenomena. It most certainly didn't mention anything that would contradict their observations. It just demanded Arabs to appreciate the magnificent creation all around them and connect all of that to one God. It didn't reveal to them, for example, the absolutely magnificent fact that humans, rocks, trees, raging rivers and shooting stars are all made up of the same building blocks (tiny atoms). Of course, if it did such a thing, they will NOT appreciate this, they will instead curse this ridiculous lie that's completely pointless (it does not nurture their innate need to worship, unlike supernatural accounts).

    Besides how much science did you expect the Quran to reveal in order to impress you? What about someone living 50,000 years from now? How much science should be revealed in a religious book to impress them? All that science would have just guaranteed the death of any religion before its birth without even the gurantee to impress anyone born in the far future. So that's why there's absolutely no science in the Quran.

    The Quran was talking to primitive people and when it came to nature, it used whatever language they used to get the point across: God's creation should be appreciated and should make us feel very small and insignificant... it should humble us. That's it.

    The scriptures really weren't meant to be science books AT ALL. If people took them as science books then certainly their faith will become very very fragile. Maybe that's why creationists feel too vulnerable to scienctific "threats"? Maybe that's why they irrationally whine about evolution, the age of the earth, etc? Maybe all of this loud screaming and kicking is just echoing internal violent struggle meant to shelter their precious fragile faith from total annihilation? I don't see why endure all this suffering. Scriptures were never meant to be science books.

    Appreciating the creation, rather than explaining it, is the goal of any scripture.

    Take these verses for example:

    [16:65] And God has sent down water from the sky and therewith given life to the earth after its death; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who would listen.
    [16:66] And most surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle; We give you to drink of what is in their bellies-- from betwixt the refuse and the blood-- pure milk, easy and agreeable to swallow for the drinkers.
    [16:67] And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense.
    [16:68] And your Lord revealed to the bee saying: Make hives in the mountains and in the trees and in what they build:
    [16:69] Then feed off all the THAMARAT, and follow the ways of your Lord, with ease: there comes from within their bellies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men: verily in this is a Sign for those who give thought.


    Where is the science in these verses? NONE!

    The message of the verses is simply to reflect on these easily obseravable yet *amazing* facts. Beasts, give us delicious milk even though their bodies hold blood and refuse! A tiny stupid bug flies long distances from its home, feeding off all sorts of flowers producing honey with its healing properties and at the end of the day it can find its way back home with ease! Of course, 7-th century Arabs ALREADY knew all of this but the idea is to remind them of all the amazing creation around them in a language that sounded like music to them... when you walk out in the woods, you see trees, but when you walk out while listening to the sweetest music you see a lot more than trees, you see magnificence!

    The Quran used basic, already known facts to people of any time. The idea is as I explained above: to drive 7-th century Arabs to marvel at God's creation by using a poetic language. It has nothing to do with science.

    Using common knowledge already available to simple Arabs, these verses painted a whole wonderful scene, with words carefully chosen to resonate in their hearts. Of course, translation KILLS the beauty of it all.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #239 - January 15, 2010, 04:04 PM

    But didnt slavery last die out in the muslim world?  The rest of humanity gave up slaves,with or without Allahs intervention.  Its basic human rights, not divine wisdom in the Quran.

    I dont think Allah had that much desire to eradicate racism, otherwise he would have made a start by setting his own prophet up as an example, by ensuring Muhammed did not own a slave.  As far as I know he had at least a couple, Maria who he used for shaggage, and a black one who he got to carry his baggage whilst he moved on camels  Wink


    Well, my understanding is if it was made forbidden for the prophet then it IS forbidden for everyone else... Besides, I wonder why do you choose to take the account of Maria and the black slave while ignore all other accounts of him and his wives buying multitudes of slaves to emancipate them?

    Again, as for the emancipation system failing, it's our fault. If Muslims at least spent ALMS to free slaves, slavery would have ended at least at one point in Islamic history.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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