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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hello people

 (Read 113989 times)
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #240 - January 15, 2010, 04:07 PM

    Well, my understanding is if it was made forbidden for the prophet then it IS forbidden for everyone else... Besides, I wonder why do you choose to take the account of Maria and the black slave while ignore all other accounts of him and his wives buying multitudes of slaves to emancipate them?

    Again, as for the emancipation system failing, it's our fault. If Muslims at least spent ALMS to free slaves, slavery would have ended at least at one point in Islamic history.


    Umm sources? Nowhere in the entire Quran or the Hadiths is there a call to abolish slavery or even criticise slavery as a practice. Only thing Islam does is "recommend" mannumission of slaves but on the condition that they convert to Islam - so the motivation is hardly a humane one.

    Please do go ahead and find me verses that call for the abolition of slavery. You'd think Allah has a greater moral foresight than humans right?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #241 - January 15, 2010, 04:12 PM

    debunker, I fully agree that the Quran was never meant to be a science book - otherwise we would have had much more detailed descriptions of scientific phenomenon. My problem arises when people claim that physical phenomenon described in the Quran contradicts science i.e. God's laws. This is why I never go around claimimg 'scientific miracles' myself but simply take a defensive position.

    anyways, I thought you're meant to be on my side!!  Wink

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #242 - January 15, 2010, 04:12 PM

    If that was true, why would Allah need a man to convey his message.  My making a fallible mortal convey his message, how could he reasonbly assume that other ordinary mortals would readily adopt it.  Those that adopted it, does that make them better people?  Or just more gullible?

    One of the biggest flaws in the Quran is that it see's those who more gullible, and accept the words of one man 1400years ago professing to be the prophet of God, as a virtue when there is no evidence to prove otherwise.  You will see from your own experience that those who accept one god, verses a multitude of Gods or no God, or those that accept the prophet as his messenger vs those that dont, are not any better or worse than the others.  Yet the Quran stipulates this as the most important virtue to have Roll Eyes

    This is something that I will never, nor have ever, managed to get my head around despite hearing all the arguments.

    However it makes perfect sense if it was man-made, and to date I have not heard anything that makes iIslam any more of a truth than all the other worlds religions.  

    If you step outside of the box for a second, you might understand where I am coming from, and deliver a good answer.

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #243 - January 15, 2010, 04:13 PM

    Well, my understanding is if it was made forbidden for the prophet then it IS forbidden for everyone else... Besides, I wonder why do you choose to take the account of Maria and the black slave while ignore all other accounts of him and his wives buying multitudes of slaves to emancipate them?

    Again, as for the emancipation system failing, it's our fault. If Muslims at least spent ALMS to free slaves, slavery would have ended at least at one point in Islamic history.


    Would they have been freed had they not become Muslims but remained Christian or Jewish?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #244 - January 15, 2010, 04:16 PM

    Quote
    Do you think if you came to a people, 1400 years ago, and told them that men falling in the battle field are to be freed, they would have accepted your advice? Even if you claimed to be a prophet, in all likelihood they'd reject your entire message...


    First of all, we are talking about Allah's message right? not the prophet's.

    I think Allah (the way you portray him) should have been able to come up with an effective way to convey a persuasive argument to the people of the world that slavery was wrong and should be abolished immediately.

    I agree that many people at the time would have and did reject the message of the guy who said he got it from an angel who secretly told him everything in some cave. This would not have been a good way to convince people to make such a drastic change in their lives.

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #245 - January 15, 2010, 04:16 PM

    debunker, I fully agree that the Quran was never meant to be a science book - otherwise we would have had much more detailed descriptions of scientific phenomenon. My problem arises when people claim that physical phenomenon described in the Quran contradicts science i.e. God's laws. This is why I never go around claimimg 'scientific miracles' myself but simply take a defensive position.

    anyways, I thought you're meant to be on my side!!  Wink

    The least Allah could have done was to show some evidence in his quran of some knowledge outside of what was currently known, otherwise how could he expect people then & in 10,000 years time to believe it?  

    Again it is more in line with it being man-made, as if it was then they would not have been able to.  So far everything just points it to being man-made, I would like both of you guys to actually tell us why you believe it IS 100% true.  That is something that fails everyone else here.

    We're all ears..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #246 - January 15, 2010, 04:18 PM

    @ Yunus

    I am on your side.

    Btw, interestingly, there is a Hadith in Muslim's book where the prophet orders his followers NOT to write Hadith, and only write Quran (pretty ironic to find this Hadith in a Hadith book!)
    **//hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=5326&doc=1**

    Also, the first movement of rejecting, at least, huge parts of Hadith was by the Mutazilte sect which appeared about 100 years after the prophet's death (and they were vehemently attacked by the Sunni sect).

    **//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu'tazili**

    There are 3 types of Hadith (Mutawatir, Mashhour and Ahad).. The Mutaziltes rejected all Hadiths except Mutawatir (which is a tiny part of Hadith).

    Quote
    The first type is diffusely recurrent (mutawatir) reports ? those that have come down to later generations through a large number of chains of narration, involving diverse transmitters such that it is virtually impossible that all these people, living in different localities and espousing (at times radically) different views, would come together, fabricate the exact same lie and attribute it to the Prophet of Islam or any other authority. A large number of narrators is not a sufficient criterion for authenticating a report because people belonging to some sect or party may have an interest in fabricating reports that promote their agendas. The power of this mode of transmission, tawatur, rests on both the number and diversity of narrators at each stage of transmission. On the other hand, the authenticity of the second type of reports, those which do not meet the criteria for tawatur, is considered speculative.


    PS. I usually get my information from Arabic sources, but I found this in English for you:

    Quote
    there are over two million hadiths. Two of the most reliable books on hadiths are the one of Bukhari and the one of Muslim. The hadiths contained in the former are reported to have been selected from among 600,000 and in the latter this number is 300,000. The one of Davud contains hadiths selected from among 500,000, the one of Malik Muvatta, founder of a religious sect, contains hadiths selected from among 100,000 and the one of Musnad contains hadiths selected from among 750,000.


    **://www.quranic.org/quran_article/4/hadiths_and_sunna.htm**

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #247 - January 15, 2010, 04:22 PM

    Would they have been freed had they not become Muslims but remained Christian or Jewish?


    There are verses that simply say slaves (without specifying religion) and other verses that say believing slaves...

    Anyway, if I were a slave and (assuming that freeing slaves was limited only to believing slaves) then I would pretend I was a Muslim, work towards my freedom, and then get the hell out.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #248 - January 15, 2010, 04:22 PM

    Even keeping the muttawatir hadith does not change as much as you'd like.  Aisha's age & beating verses are muttawatir as far as I know.

    In any case it doesnt change the argument that they were written and compiled by ordinary man, and not protected by 'Allah'

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #249 - January 15, 2010, 04:24 PM

    Aicha's age is NOT Mutawatir (read the definition above)... it is Mash-hoor.

    Besides, I was only referring to what Mutazlites believed... (I don't necessarily ignore Mash-hour/Ahad Hadiths).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #250 - January 15, 2010, 04:26 PM

    In other words you pick & choose what you like and dismiss whatever doesnt fit into your personal frame of understanding?  Sounds like you could be called on for confirmation bias

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #251 - January 15, 2010, 04:28 PM

    debunker,

    ''Btw, interestingly, there is a Hadith in Muslim's book where the prophet orders his followers NOT to write Hadith, and only write Quran (pretty ironic to find this Hadith in a Hadith book!)''

    Yeah! that's always my favourite response to my wife - although it sometimes means I don't get any dinner

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #252 - January 15, 2010, 04:29 PM

    First of all, we are talking about Allah's message right? not the prophet's.

    I think Allah (the way you portray him) should have been able to come up with an effective way to convey a persuasive argument to the people of the world that slavery was wrong and should be abolished immediately.

    I agree that many people at the time would have and did reject the message of the guy who said he got it from an angel who secretly told him everything in some cave. This would not have been a good way to convince people to make such a drastic change in their lives.


    Please don't mix supernatural stories with practical issues... if a prophet spoke of angels that would only sound like a different type of supernatural beliefs...

    But a prophet demanding abolishing slavery is like one demanding others to give up their basic rights.

    As for God finding a convincing argument, the most convincing argument is really showing Himself. Well, that is obviously not His plan (having more angel-like creation).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #253 - January 15, 2010, 04:30 PM

    In other words you pick & choose what you like and dismiss whatever doesnt fit into your personal frame of understanding?  Sounds like you could be called on for confirmation bias


    Not really. My approach is to try to avoid reliance on Hadith as much as possible. But when it comes to things like rituals and sins, I really have no other choice.

    Of course, Hadiths contradicting Quran are rejected by me.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #254 - January 15, 2010, 04:31 PM

    But a prophet demanding abolishing slavery is like one demanding others to give up their basic rights.


    uhh what???  Huh?


    Is this guy for real?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #255 - January 15, 2010, 04:36 PM

    The least Allah could have done was to show some evidence in his quran of some knowledge outside of what was currently known, otherwise how could he expect people then & in 10,000 years time to believe it?  

    Again it is more in line with it being man-made, as if it was then they would not have been able to.  So far everything just points it to being man-made, I would like both of you guys to actually tell us why you believe it IS 100% true.  That is something that fails everyone else here.

    We're all ears..


    Well, there are verses in the Bible that say the Earth is a ball hanging on nothing! Is that good enough for you to believe in the Biblical God? No? I thought so.

    I believe that the message in the Quran is 100% true... The vehicle used to convey the message (the language) can NEVER be perfect.

    As for the Quran being man-made, I suggest you think of it in a different way... it was made for man... God speaks the imperfect language of man.. God speaks to within the limited understanding of man.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #256 - January 15, 2010, 04:37 PM

    uhh what???  Huh?


    Is this guy for real?


    what did you understand exactly?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #257 - January 15, 2010, 04:37 PM

    There are verses that simply say slaves (without specifying religion) and other verses that say believing slaves...

    Anyway, if I were a slave and (assuming that freeing slaves was limited only to believing slaves) then I would pretend I was a Muslim, work towards my freedom, and then get the hell out.


    Depends on what awaited you after your freedom.  If you became a Muslim simply to please Muhammad and you were rewarded and offered good opportunities for remaining a Muslim, then you would have remained one simply because there were better options then those in your former society.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #258 - January 15, 2010, 04:37 PM

    Please don't mix supernatural stories with practical issues... if a prophet spoke of angels that would only sound like a different type of supernatural beliefs...


    What???

    Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the foundation of Islam based on your prophet recieving his revelations from angel Gabriel?

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #259 - January 15, 2010, 04:39 PM

    yeah so?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #260 - January 15, 2010, 04:40 PM

    what did you understand exactly?


    That you think the Prophet abolishing slavery would have been a bad thing. 015

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #261 - January 15, 2010, 04:41 PM

    Debunker, can you please explain verse 4:34?

    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #262 - January 15, 2010, 04:42 PM

    it would have been a very ridiculous unfair bad thing for *them*... it has always been like this for thousands of years.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #263 - January 15, 2010, 04:42 PM

    yeah so?


    That is supernatural in itself...

    And there is nothing to suggest that he freed slaves who remained true to their beliefs.  There is a lot to suggest that he freed slaves who would swear allegiance to him because he needed more followers for his cause.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #264 - January 15, 2010, 04:43 PM

    yeah so?


    So a prophet speaking of Angels would not sound like a different type of supernatural belief. It would sound like Islam.

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #265 - January 15, 2010, 04:48 PM

    uhh what???  Huh?


    Is this guy for real?


    Although I find debunkers language a little strong, I actually do agree with him. People living 1600 years ago probably felt slavery was completely normal - If you or I, Iblis, were living at that time, we even probably would have thought it was completely normal ourselves.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #266 - January 15, 2010, 04:52 PM

    Not really. My approach is to try to avoid reliance on Hadith as much as possible. But when it comes to things like rituals and sins, I really have no other choice.

    Well would it not have made more sense to include these 'rituals & sins' in the Quran if the prophet didnt want people writing hadith?  If circumcision is not mentioned in the quran, but pork being haram is, how do you know whether to accept circumcision is not sacrilgious to Allahs perfect creation?  This mind-control mechanism of Islam just seems to be flawed at a raft of issues whenever you look at it beyond the superficial and in any depth.

    I dont think its even well written for a man-made book.  tbh I dont even think most muslims have read it all, because they focus on reading it in a foreign language.  As no-one knows what true Islam is, this may help its longevity, although 1400 years is not a long time in the history of religions.

    (As a side issue, I wonder if the reason the prophet did not want people writing hadith is because he then would have had to watch everything he did)

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #267 - January 15, 2010, 04:52 PM

    Although I find debunkers language a little strong, I actually do agree with him. People living 1600 years ago probably felt slavery was completely normal - If you or I, Iblis, were living at that time, we even probably would have thought it was completely normal ourselves.


    Ok, so then you agree that Islam is not a universal religion and the prophet was really not a particularly wise ethical teacher. Because the point of being a moral teacher is to say things beyond the time. If this man was really a Prophet, he would have had greater moral foresight than 19th century Europeans.. which obviously he didn't since 19th century Europeans were ethically advanced enough to abolish this practice.. but Mo thought slavery was fine.

    Thank you for agreeing with us.  Afro

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #268 - January 15, 2010, 04:54 PM

    Although I find debunkers language a little strong, I actually do agree with him. People living 1600 years ago probably felt slavery was completely normal - If you or I, Iblis, were living at that time, we even probably would have thought it was completely normal ourselves.


    That's no excuse. A divine revelation should have known better than that. You may have thought it was normal but you are a normal ordinary person, not the messenger of Allah. Shouldn't the prophet for all humanity know better than normal people?

    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #269 - January 15, 2010, 04:56 PM

    Debunker, can you please explain verse 4:34?


    First off, the false doctrine that ALL verses are for all time was invented by Muslims.

    Now, this verse was revealed for a specific case back then. Arabs, of course, were in the habit of beating the hell out of their wives. At one occasion, one of women complained to the prophet and he immediately exclaimed: "the worst of you (men) are the worst towards their wives and the best are the best towards their wives"... Meaning? No beating whatsoever... Of course, the women, after years of opression, started abusing their husbands in revenge, knowing that they could not beat them. So, now the men went to the prophet complaining about the treatment they get from their wives.

    So the verse was revealed... which really meant: you can't hit your wives unless they're really causing you trouble that even after going through the self-punishing process of abstaining from sex with them, they're still causing trouble only then you can hit them.
    This ruling is practically like a suspended sentence.... no man is really hell bent on beating his wife that he'd wait for a while without sex with her before he can finally hit her.

    OF COURSE, hitting wives is unacceptable under any circumstances even after a self-punishing waiting period (abstaining from sex).. but this was for that case ONLY.... things have already gotten out of hand... note how the wives were damaged enough because of past maltreatment that they felt like exacting revenge on their husbands... the whole situation was hopeless and that solution was for that specific case.  

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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