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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hello people

 (Read 108837 times)
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #300 - January 15, 2010, 12:39 PM

    Bollocks...  Even if it said that men could not beat their wives literally, (but evidently it does) the action still symbolises the superiority of man over his wife.  The quran still places emphasis on the man, as your passage shows.  There is hardly anything about what the wife can do.


    The fact that the Quran establishes that the man is the leader of his household, is stated in the beginning of the verse... no secret here.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #301 - January 15, 2010, 12:39 PM

    Did he? according to what - the hadith?


    Why should the hadiths be automatically wrong if they are not compatible with today's society?  Muhammad lived in a time when such things were acceptable...

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #302 - January 15, 2010, 12:40 PM

    Did he? according to what - the hadith?


    I'm not sure abut the black slaves, but he did have Maria, the Copt as a slave.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #303 - January 15, 2010, 12:42 PM

    The fact that the Quran establishes that the man is the leader of his household, is stated in the beginning of the verse... no secret here.


    Yet further proof that it does not give full rights to women and that it is not a universal message for all times.  Even if the man is the leader, leaders can be abusive and I would expect a universal message to place more emphasis on the subordinate.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #304 - January 15, 2010, 12:46 PM

    I'm not sure abut the black slaves, but he did have Maria, the Copt as a slave.


    Isn't it possible he married her soon after she was given to him as a slave?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #305 - January 15, 2010, 12:47 PM

    OMG!  You're saying he created us weak on purpose.  Then why torture us in the after life for infinity?

    Well, I am not saying... God is saying we are weak.


    As to why create man with the ability to sin and yet punish him, that's a long discussion... but anyway, *eternal* punishment is ONLY for disbelief caused by pride/arrogance/stubborness...

    Quote
    Hate to tell you this dude, but Abrahmism aint that old when it comes to religions.  Take a look at hinduism?  Does that make Hinduism the best?  Also people need religion, that why it wont die out.  Not because Islam is anything special, look at all the other religions alive & well today.

    Religion brings hope & makes people believe wishes can come true.  Islam & Abrahmism add fear to this mix.  Period.


    And I didn't say anything different... I come from FFI, btw, where members there have high hopes Islam will vanish.. I can't help but laugh at such dreams.. if even Judiasm didn't vanish (despite all the odds) then why would Islam?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #306 - January 15, 2010, 12:47 PM

    Very briefly: women, upon the first ruling of the prophet, abused their husbands... that Quranic
    ruling stopped both from abusing each other...

    I asked you how they were abusing. Were they beating their husbands?
    Quote
    it practically made it impossible for a husband to beat his wife (suspended sentence)... can you imagine a husband feeling like beating his wife yet he holds his breath, until he first talks to her and then punish himself abstaining from sex with her and then still stay hell-bent on beating her?

    How come there is no verse in quran that allows women to not have sex with their husbands when the husbands disobey them? Or wait, the obediance is only for the wife right?

    Quote
    If the husband is abusive then he'd beat her without going through this lengthy process of waiting... If he's not then he'd never have the chance to beat her.


    Then what is the point of this verse when it's never really applicable?

    As far as this abstinence before wife beating is concerned, it's not really a punishment since he is allowed to have multiple wives. So when wife#1 is being a bitch, he can abstain sexual relations from her and have sex with wife #2.  Allah swt indeed knows best!

    Quote
    Finally, it was specific only for that case, since the wives were already psychologically damaged... they had to release the years of abuse by revenge and that why the verse was revealed... it was basically saying: "men! you really can't practically beat your wives... women: Stop your revenge campaign."    

    What kind of abuse? Were they beating up their husbands? Give me an example please.

    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #307 - January 15, 2010, 12:48 PM

    Isn't it possible he married her soon after she was given to him as a slave?


    I honestly don't believe so.. I know there are some accounts that say he did marry her, but I don't think so.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #308 - January 15, 2010, 12:49 PM

    yeah... show me the verse that proves me wrong.
     

    Before I go through the effort of looking it up for you, you have to first make position known. (And I presume you speak Arabic, so I'll look it up in Arabic, after you explain your position).


    Actually that's not how it's done, you make a claim, which you have done, and then you back it up.  I don't quite understand what you mean by my position though?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #309 - January 15, 2010, 12:51 PM

    I don't think that was the the case really.  Many Muslim powers made heavy use of slaves throughout history, and slavery still goes on in various Islamic countries...  Again show me examples of where Muhammad freed slaves do didn't want to convert to Islam...


    ras, I think actually many times in the Quran, freeing of slaves is mentioned as a virtuous act - and in these cases 'beleiving slaves' is not specified - therefore freeing of non-beleiving slaves is also considered virtuous - I'm not sure that it was incumbent on these slave to then convert to Islam.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #310 - January 15, 2010, 12:51 PM


    So if Islam has a causative effect on peoples behaviour, and Islam prohibits slavery, why was slavery legal and practised in the home of Mohammad, Saudi Arabia, until the 1960's?

    We're not talking about people continuing to do something trivial here - we're talking about as cruel and inhuman and evil a practise as is possible to imagine - slavery.

    What's going on, slaves of Mo?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #311 - January 15, 2010, 12:56 PM

    @ tara

    Quote
    I asked you how they were abusing. Were they beating their husbands?

     

    I don't know... It doesn't say, but I'm sure the wives did NOT hit their husbands, they simply treated them like shit.

    Quote
    How come there is no verse in quran that allows women to not have sex with their husbands when the husbands disobey them? Or wait, the obediance is only for the wife right?

     

    It is pretty clear in the Quran, the leadership of the household is for the husband.

    Quote
    Then what is the point of this verse when it's never really applicable?


    Haven't you ever heard of the concept of *suspended sentence*.. it's to send a message for the husbands (and the wives) that they can't abuse each other...

    Quote
    As far as this abstinence before wife beating is concerned, it's not really a punishment since he is allowed to have multiple wives. So when wife#1 is being a bitch, he can abstain sexual relations from her and have sex with wife #2.  Allah swt indeed knows best!


    regardless of the number of the wives... the husband is FORCED to stay away from his wife's bed even if he desired her...

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #312 - January 15, 2010, 12:58 PM

    Actually that's not how it's done, you make a claim, which you have done, and then you back it up.  I don't quite understand what you mean by my position though?


    What I meant is: do you think my claim is acceptable to you, but you're just waiting on the evidence?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #313 - January 15, 2010, 12:59 PM

    So if Islam has a causative effect on peoples behaviour, and Islam prohibits slavery, why was slavery legal and practised in the home of Mohammad, Saudi Arabia, until the 1960's?

    We're not talking about people continuing to do something trivial here - we're talking about as cruel and inhuman and evil a practise as is possible to imagine - slavery.

    What's going on, slaves of Mo?




    You're repeating a question already asked before and answered (not to the satisfaction of the asker of course)

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #314 - January 15, 2010, 01:00 PM

    What I meant is: do you think my claim is acceptable to you, but you're just waiting on the evidence?


    Yes, I'm open to new information always.  I'm truly interested.  Smiley

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #315 - January 15, 2010, 01:09 PM

    ras, I think actually many times in the Quran, freeing of slaves is mentioned as a virtuous act - and in these cases 'beleiving slaves' is not specified - therefore freeing of non-beleiving slaves is also considered virtuous - I'm not sure that it was incumbent on these slave to then convert to Islam.


    Evidently the freeing of slaves in the quran seems to be part of a settlement, or having to do with marriage.  There is absolutely nothing forbidding the taking of slaves..

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #316 - January 15, 2010, 01:22 PM

    Yes, I'm open to new information always.  I'm truly interested.  Smiley


    ok, i'll look it up.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #317 - January 15, 2010, 01:23 PM

    It is pretty clear in the Quran, the leadership of the household is for the husband.

    Leadership is earnt through actions, not just for having a penis. Its because of  this 'leadership is for husband' kind of mindset that the progress of women is discouraged in muslim countries. And being the household's leader doesn't give you the right to override a human being's free will (i.e your wife's will to deny you sex).

    Haven't you ever heard of the concept of *suspended sentence*.. it's to send a message for the husbands (and the wives) that they can't abuse each other...

    It only sends the message to the wife that she better be a good sheep or she'll get beaten up. Being a man I feel/see no message to respect a woman in that verse.

    regardless of the number of the wives... the husband is FORCED to stay away from his wife's bed even if he desired her...

    Whenever allah wants something enforced he always gives threats of punishment if he's disobeyed. In this case the tone is clearly suggestive and there's no mention of any punishment if someone does still sleep with his wife. It sounds to me like a friend giving me advice on how to subdue a woman. 'Try denying her sex first, sleep with other wives to make her jealous, and if that doesn't straighten her out either then give her a good thrashing'.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #318 - January 15, 2010, 01:25 PM



    We're not talking about people continuing to do something trivial here - we're talking about as cruel and inhuman and evil a practise as is possible to imagine - slavery.




    I think to compare the kind of slavery that was prevalent in other regions and times is not fair Billy, since Muslims were always encouraged to treat slaves with kindness. Indeed there is a verse in the Quran that appears to tell us to treat them with the same kindness with which we treat our parents:

    (Show) kindness unto parents, and unto near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and unto the neighbour who is of kin (unto you) and the neighbour who is not of kin, and the fellow-traveller and the wayfarer and (the slaves) whom your right hands possess."
    4:36


    In addition I should also add that in Islam, slaves always had the right to buy their freedom - this was something rarely offered to slaves from other regions and times.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #319 - January 15, 2010, 01:26 PM

    As to why create man with the ability to sin and yet punish him, that's a long discussion... but anyway, *eternal* punishment is ONLY for disbelief caused by pride/arrogance/stubborness...

    And I didn't say anything different... I come from FFI, btw, where members there have high hopes Islam will vanish.. I can't help but laugh at such dreams.. if even Judiasm didn't vanish (despite all the odds) then why would Islam?

    Because you are looking at it from your myopic perspective.  5000 years is not a long time for a religion, and Judaism now has few followers.  How any religions do you know that are 20000 years old, let along 250,000 years old?

    Here is the list of gods in their graveyard

    Quote
    Agdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda,  Alberich,   Amaterasu,  An,  Anansi,  Anat,  Andvari,  Anshar,  Anu,  Aphrodite,  Apollo,  Apsu,  Ares,  Artemis,  Asclepius,  Athena,  Athirat,   Athtart,  Atlas,  Atum-Ra,  Baal,  Ba Xian,  Bacchus,   Balder,  Bast,  Bellona,  Bergelmir,  Bes,  Bixia Yuanjin,  Bragi,  Brahma,  Brigit,  Camaxtli,  Ceres,  Ceridwen,  Cernunnos,  Chac,  Chalchiuhtlicue,  Charun,  Chemosh,  Cheng-huang,  Cybele,  Dagon,  Damkina (Dumkina),  Davlin,  Dawn,  Demeter,  Diana,  Di Cang,  Dionysus,  Ea,  El,  Enki,  Enlil,  Eos,  Epona,  Ereskigal,  Farbauti,   Fenrir,  Forseti,  Freya,  Freyr,  Frigg,  Gaia,  Ganesha,  Ganga,  Garuda,  Gauri,  Geb,  Geong Si,  Hades,  Hanuman,  Hathor,  Hecate (Hekate),  Helios,  Heng-o (Chang-o),  Hephaestus,  Hera,  Hermes,  Hestia,  Hod,  Hoderi,  Hoori,  Horus,  Hotei,  Huitzilopochtli,  Hsi-Wang-Mu,  Hygeia,  Inanna,  Inti,  Iris,  Ishtar,  Isis,  Ixtab,  Izanaki,  Izanami,  Jesus,  Juno,  Jupiter,  Juturna,  Kagutsuchi,  Kartikeya,   Khepri,  Ki,  Kingu,  Kinich Ahau,  Kishar,  Krishna,  Kukulcan,  Lakshmi,  Liza,  Loki,  Lugh,  Luna,  Magna Mater,  Maia,  Marduk,  Mars, Mbombo,  Medb,  Mercury,  Mimir,  Minerva,  Mithras,  Morrigan,  Mot,  Mummu,  Muses,  Nammu,  Nanna,  Nanna (Norse),  Nanse,  Neith,  Nemesis,  Nephthys,  Neptune,  Nergal,  Ninazu,  Ninhurzag,  Nintu,  Ninurta,  Njord,  Nut,  Odin,  Ohkuninushi,  Ohyamatsumi,  Orgelmir,  Osiris,  Ostara,  Pan,  Parvati,  Phaethon,  Phoebe,  Phoebus Apollo,  Pilumnus,  Poseidon,  Quetzalcoatl,  Rama,  Re,  Rhea,  Sabazius,  Sarasvati,  Selene,  Shiva,  Seshat,  Seti (Set),  Shamash,  Shapsu,  Shen Yi,  Shiva,  Shu,  ,  Si-Wang-Mu,  Sin,  Sirona,  Sol,  Surya,  Susanoh,  Tawaret,  Tefnut,  Tezcatlipoca,  Thanatos,  Thor,  Tiamat,  Tlaloc,  Tonatiuh,  Toyo-Uke-Bime,  Tyche,  Tyr,  Utu,  Uzume,  Venus,  Vesta,  Vishnu,  Volturnus,  Vulcan,  Xipe,  Xi Wang-mu,  Xochipilli,  Xochiquetzal,  Yam,  Yarikh,  Yhwh,  Ymir,  Yu-huang,   Yum Kimil,  Zeus  

     


    .. and now for most of us at least, Allah

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #320 - January 15, 2010, 01:30 PM

    First off, the false doctrine that ALL verses are for all time was invented by Muslims.

    Now, this verse was revealed for a specific case back then. Arabs, of course, were in the habit of beating the hell out of their wives. At one occasion, one of women complained to the prophet and he immediately exclaimed: "the worst of you (men) are the worst towards their wives and the best are the best towards their wives"... Meaning? No beating whatsoever... Of course, the women, after years of opression, started abusing their husbands in revenge, knowing that they could not beat them. So, now the men went to the prophet complaining about the treatment they get from their wives.

    So the verse was revealed... which really meant: you can't hit your wives unless they're really causing you trouble that even after going through the self-punishing process of abstaining from sex with them, they're still causing trouble only then you can hit them.
    This ruling is practically like a suspended sentence.... no man is really hell bent on beating his wife that he'd wait for a while without sex with her before he can finally hit her.

    OF COURSE, hitting wives is unacceptable under any circumstances even after a self-punishing waiting period (abstaining from sex).. but this was for that case ONLY.... things have already gotten out of hand... note how the wives were damaged enough because of past maltreatment that they felt like exacting revenge on their husbands... the whole situation was hopeless and that solution was for that specific case.  


    Hello Debunker ,
                                    A question here. Where does the verse 4:34 say that the verse is applicable only to arabs and not henceforth?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #321 - January 15, 2010, 01:34 PM

    (Show) kindness unto parents, and unto near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and unto the neighbour who is of kin (unto you) and the neighbour who is not of kin, and the fellow-traveller and the wayfarer and (the slaves) whom your right hands possess."
    4:36

    If I tell you to be kind to your mother and kind to your dog, it does not mean you will treat them in the same fashion.

    A dog is a dog as a slave is a slave.

    The evilness is in the slavery itself. Don't give us this kinder, gentler slavery BS.

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #322 - January 15, 2010, 01:36 PM

    @ Islame


    Although I know you won't accept it, here's a brief justification for the *eternity* of Hell for *arrogant* disbelievers:


    1- God is infinite (yeah, Iknow infinity does NOT exist in nature, but God is beyond nature)

    2- We, compared to an infinite God, are infinitely small... Compared to the infinite God we are even less than specks of dust.

    3- Creating Hell and torturing people in Hell for eternity takes no effort AT ALL from God, He just wills it and it happens.

    4- Now, since those who arrogantly disbelieved in the infinite God are worth nothing *in the hereafter*, He does NOT care even if they spent eternity in Hell (why would the infinite God feel any mercy towards the eternal torment of arrogant specks of dust?)

    أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَلِقَائِهِ فَحَبِطَتْ أَعْمَالُهُمْ فَلَا نُقِيمُ لَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَزْنًا
    [18:105] Those are they who disbelieve in the revelations of their Lord and in the meeting with Him. Therefor their works are vain, and on the Day of Resurrection We assign no weight to them

    5- After all, in the hereafter we are NOTHING except by His infinite mercy.

    PS. Of course the average person is too arrogant to believe that he could be nothing compared to the infinite God, but anyway, let me ask this question:

    Since you truly believe that men are nothing but sophisticated clumps of atoms (without soul) and all our feelings, including feelings of pain, are ONLY chemical reactions, then what makes you think that an infinite God (assuming He exists) would feel any sorrow if He tortured a clump of atoms for eternity? Since this takes absolutely no effort on the part of God, an eternal torture of mere clumps of atoms should really be nothing to God, right?

    Now I guess your next question would be: why did God create us if we are nothing but specks of dust except by His infinite mercy?

    Ans: no one really knows... angels even asked God why would He create man (especially with his ability to choose to sin) when they (majestic creations of God) worship Him and never disobey Him? and God answered that He knows what the angels didn't know... some speculate that God created man for his ability to learn, but no one really knows... but the bottom line is, we surely aren't just clumps of atoms and whoever thinks that they are, then they really shouldn't object much to the morality behind burning a heap of stardust for eternity.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #323 - January 15, 2010, 01:37 PM

    ''The evilness is in the slavery itself. Don't give us this kinder, gentler slavery BS.''

    Which is perhaps why Islam gave every slave the right to buy his/her freedom?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #324 - January 15, 2010, 01:39 PM

    ''The evilness is in the slavery itself. Don't give us this kinder, gentler slavery BS.''

    Which is perhaps why Islam gave every slave the right to buy his/her freedom?


    Why not forbid the whole practice of capturing slaves in the first place?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #325 - January 15, 2010, 01:40 PM

    hello sky,

    Quote
    A question here. Where does the verse 4:34 say that the verse is applicable only to arabs and not henceforth?


    The verse obviously doesn't say this... the circumstances of the revelation of that verse do... remember, it was only revealed after the wives launched a revenge campaign against their husbands. It really is nothing more of a suspended sentence to solve that particular problem... of course, you don't agree, you never do, I know.

    regards.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #326 - January 15, 2010, 01:41 PM

    Why not forbid the whole practice of capturing slaves in the first place?


    you mean, the enemies in the field are allowed to capture the Muslims if they fall but not vice versa?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #327 - January 15, 2010, 01:42 PM

    Which is perhaps why Islam gave every slave the right to buy his/her freedom?

    Slavery is still being practised legally and only by muslim arabs in Sudan these days. So much for 'Islam abolished slavery'
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #328 - January 15, 2010, 01:43 PM

    remember, it was only revealed after the wives launched a revenge campaign against their husbands.


    What?!, where does it say that?  Muslims said that women were being even more oppressed if anything...

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #329 - January 15, 2010, 01:44 PM

    you mean, the enemies in the field are allowed to capture the Muslims if they fall but not vice versa?


    Isn't Muhammad supposed to be the prophet for all times and an example to everyone?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
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