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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hello people

 (Read 114184 times)
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #330 - January 15, 2010, 06:45 PM

    In every slave based society, slaves can be bought or sold. It's just common sense that everything has a price. Sure you can purchase your freedom if you can raise the money equivilant to the value of having you as a slave for the rest of your life. Good luck raising the money when you are a slave.

    The fact that someone's freedom can be bought and sold does not make it any less evil.

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #331 - January 15, 2010, 06:46 PM

    Why not forbid the whole practice of capturing slaves in the first place?


    Good question ras, the only reason I can think off is that there probably existed a lot of individuals without any food/shelter/home etc. - slavery may have been a means for them to live much more comfortably than any alternative

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #332 - January 15, 2010, 06:47 PM

    You're repeating a question already asked before and answered (not to the satisfaction of the asker of course)


    Because it wasn't an answer at all...hmmmm

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #333 - January 15, 2010, 06:47 PM

    you mean, the enemies in the field are allowed to capture the Muslims if they fall but not vice versa?

    1) If Islam were true, why would muslims get captured? Why won't allah ensure they always, 100% win without being captured? If I were allah i'd definitely ensure my followers succeed in fighting for me.

    2) There's no such restriction of only the prisoners of war being made slaves. It is legal to keep slaves whether or not they're captured in battle or born in slavery, or bought from your friend. (Maria is an example, she is a slave whom mo accepted even though she wasn't captured in any battle)

    3) I would expect the ultimate religion to set a good example and have something like the geneva conventions which we have today which ensure that prisoners of war are treated fairly and not enslaved. Furthermore it ensures that civilians are not made POWs. Instead we have a religion advocating even the slavery of the women and children and the raping of the women while their husbands might be watching. Cheesy Disgusting that you'd even try to defend this bollocks and still claim to have a conscience!

    How come the people who wrote the geneva conventions and who aren't even muslims were able to think of a much more just solution than the supposed prophet for all eternity?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #334 - January 15, 2010, 06:48 PM

    I think to compare the kind of slavery that was prevalent in other regions and times is not fair Billy, since Muslims were always encouraged to treat slaves with kindness. Indeed there is a verse in the Quran that appears to tell us to treat them with the same kindness with which we treat our parents:

    (Show) kindness unto parents, and unto near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and unto the neighbour who is of kin (unto you) and the neighbour who is not of kin, and the fellow-traveller and the wayfarer and (the slaves) whom your right hands possess."
    4:36


    In addition I should also add that in Islam, slaves always had the right to buy their freedom - this was something rarely offered to slaves from other regions and times.



    Oh brother....




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #335 - January 15, 2010, 06:49 PM

    you mean, the enemies in the field are allowed to capture the Muslims if they fall but not vice versa?


    Did the US enslave the people of Japan after World War 2?
    Of course not. Why? because it is immoral.
    Where did they learn these morals?
    Sure as hell not from the Quran.

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #336 - January 15, 2010, 06:49 PM

    Here is the list of gods in their graveyard........................
     
    .............Zeus




    Yo! Zeus lives man, Zeus lives.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #337 - January 15, 2010, 06:50 PM

    Good question ras, the only reason I can think off is that there probably existed a lot of individuals without any food/shelter/home etc. - slavery may have been a means for them to live much more comfortably than any alternative

    If I picked a homeless begger from the street today and enslaved him and told him to work like a bull all day in the heat, and i'd give him some bread and a place to sleep, would he be happy?  Cheesy. If I were allah i would ask all muslims to free their slaves and educate them or teach them a skill so they could fend for themselves.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #338 - January 15, 2010, 06:52 PM

    The ability to buy your freedom has existed in practically every single ancient/medieval society. Islam brought nothing new or more compassionate to the table when it comes to dealing with slaves. If anything Islam increased slavery because it now drew a sectarian line on who was to be enslaved or not. Which is why during medieval times the frontiers of the Islamic realm were pretty much raiding and slaving zones, pagan Turks, Hindus, Christian Balkans, Slavs, Black Africans.. they were all fair game for slavers since they were denizens of "Dar al Harb". Islam's sectarian attitude towards slavery basically created a new medieval slave industry that stayed active well into the 1800s.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #339 - January 15, 2010, 06:54 PM

    @ liberated

    Quote
    Leadership is earnt through actions, not just for having a penis. Its because of  this 'leadership is for husband' kind of mindset that the progress of women is discouraged in muslim countries. And being the household's leader doesn't give you the right to override a human being's free will (i.e your wife's will to deny you sex).


    I'm not sure if what you're saying is that women should have the leadership of the household.

    Quote
    It only sends the message to the wife that she better be a good sheep or she'll get beaten up. Being a man I feel/see no message to respect a woman in that verse.


    so that's your reading of the verse? and despite the circumtances of its revelation? well, I'm not surprised.

    Quote
    Whenever allah wants something enforced he always gives threats of punishment if he's disobeyed. In this case the tone is clearly suggestive and there's no mention of any punishment if someone does still sleep with his wife.

     

    If they still slept with their wives then they have to start over.

    Quote
    It sounds to me like a friend giving me advice on how to subdue a woman. 'Try denying her sex first, sleep with other wives to make her jealous, and if that doesn't straighten her out either then give her a good thrashing'.

     

    well, again that's how it sounds to you.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #340 - January 15, 2010, 06:54 PM

    slavery may have been a means for them to live much more comfortably than any alternative


    If being a servant to the Muslims was the best alternative then slavery was not necessary. They could have been left to make their free choices themselves, and logicaly if what you say is true, many would choose to freely work for the Muslims. Slavery forcibly removes the alternatives.

     

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #341 - January 15, 2010, 06:55 PM

    ''The evilness is in the slavery itself. Don't give us this kinder, gentler slavery BS.''

    Which is perhaps why Islam gave every slave the right to buy his/her freedom?


    Not only that, they deserved to get a portion of the ALMS.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #342 - January 15, 2010, 06:56 PM

    ''The evilness is in the slavery itself. Don't give us this kinder, gentler slavery BS.''

    Which is perhaps why Islam gave every slave the right to buy his/her freedom?


    So, how many slaves, who are, you know SLAVES.......you know, forced to work for no pay, how are they supposed to buy their freedom? They are bonded, forced to work, forced like ANIMALS to do the bidding of their master.....yeah in practise, how many can 'buy' their freedom?

    It is such sophistry, it almost beggars belief. It is an apolgia for what is one of the most inhuman cruel and wicked pracitses possible, the enforced slavery of people, and it places it in a sweet and dainty and scented box of slavery-lite, because they were offered the chance to but their freedom which in practical terms is utterly meaningless.

    So Islam is the light of eternity and immutable morality - but the best it can come up with is that it SUPPOSEDLY offered a funky, more gentle, kinder slavery (Islam - the kind face of slavery) - and this is the immutable, eternal, superior, greatest light unto mankind?

    That's hilarious.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #343 - January 15, 2010, 06:58 PM

    Not only that, they deserved to get a portion of the ALMS.


    Wow! Such a progressive religion.

    Fact - Slavery was legal in Suadi Arabia - the cradle and home of Islam, until the 1960's - one thusand and three hundred years after Mo died. But it was OK - slavery was very gentle and kind, and civilised, relatively speaking.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #344 - January 15, 2010, 07:01 PM

    Good question ras, the only reason I can think off is that there probably existed a lot of individuals without any food/shelter/home etc. - slavery may have been a means for them to live much more comfortably than any alternative


    The real problem is that both warring parties came to the field expecting to be either victorious or enslaved... just imagine what could people back then do to their captives? release them so that they can fight them again in another battle?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #345 - January 15, 2010, 07:02 PM

    I'm not sure if what you're saying is that women should have the leadership of the household.

    Yea, why not? If a woman is more educated and makes more money than the husband she has the rights to make more decisions.

    so that's your reading of the verse? and despite the circumtances of its revelation? well, I'm not surprised.

    Lol, so much for your 'clear (mubeen)' book aye?

    If they still slept with their wives then they have to start over.

    Where does it say that? Its not in the verse anywhere, seems like something the apologetics made up themselves.
     
    well, again that's how it sounds to you.

    Again, the 1400 year old book written by desert dwellers is not mubeen.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #346 - January 15, 2010, 07:03 PM

    Anyways, all this sophistry about slavery is meaningless.

    Abolishing slavery is against Islam and the Quran. That is indisputable.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #347 - January 15, 2010, 07:05 PM

    Wow! Such a progressive religion.

    Fact - Slavery was legal in Suadi Arabia - the cradle and home of Islam, until the 1960's - one thusand and three hundred years after Mo died. But it was OK - slavery was very gentle and kind, and civilised, relatively speaking.





    Billy,

    If even MONOTHEISM (Islam's clearest and most important message) to this day is not practiced by ~60% of Muslims (the majority of Muslims are grave worshippers), then how do you think they would react to a verse saying that freeing slaves is like climbing an uphill road, for example?  

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #348 - January 15, 2010, 07:07 PM

    Anyways, all this sophistry about slavery is meaningless.

    Abolishing slavery is against Islam and the Quran. That is indisputable.


    No one can dispute your arguments Iblis.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #349 - January 15, 2010, 07:09 PM

    Quote
    Where does it say that? Its not in the verse anywhere, seems like something the apologetics made up themselves.


    well, the verse says they had to abstainfrom sex with them... if they couldn't hold this step then there's no next.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #350 - January 15, 2010, 07:09 PM

    On the topic of slavery, this is a pretty cool painting:


    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #351 - January 15, 2010, 07:11 PM


    ISLAMOPHOBE! ORIENTALIST!


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #352 - January 15, 2010, 07:13 PM

    @ Iblis

    Muslims actually done worse... they made little boys eunichs.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #353 - January 15, 2010, 07:15 PM

    Billy,

    If even MONOTHEISM (Islam's clearest and most important message) to this day is not practiced by ~60% of Muslims (the majority of Muslims are grave worshippers), then how do you think they would react to a verse saying that freeing slaves is like climbing an uphill road, for example?  


    Who cares? Enough with the apologetics - Islam claims to be immutable and eternal truth - slavery is a true social evil and it persisted without any attempt at reform for 1300 years in the home of the original Muslims after Mo died - because instead of spitting at slavery as utter social evil, it deemed it OK, as long as you do this and that and treat them nicely. No excuses are possible for this at all. And in the context of claims of Islams truthfulness and eternal immutable highest morality for mankind, it makes Islam seem some kind of delusional joke.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #354 - January 15, 2010, 07:16 PM

    to this day is not practiced by ~60% of Muslims (the majority of Muslims are grave worshippers)

     
    Huh? Huh? Huh?

    According to whom? You?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #355 - January 15, 2010, 07:17 PM

    Billy,

    If even MONOTHEISM (Islam's clearest and most important message) to this day is not practiced by ~60% of Muslims (the majority of Muslims are grave worshippers), then how do you think they would react to a verse saying that freeing slaves is like climbing an uphill road, for example?  

    The reason for both is the same: there is no clear verse in the quran asking for graves to not be worshipped or slavery to be abolished.

    well, the verse says they had to abstainfrom sex with them... if they couldn't hold this step then there's no next.

    I don't understand what you mean? The verse doesn't say they have to start over if they have sex regardless, and without that being mentioned you're making it up.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #356 - January 15, 2010, 07:19 PM

    Billy dear, calm down... why are you so angry?

    like i said before it was really unfair when your enemies are given the right to enslave Muslims falling in the Battle field, while Muslims were supposed to release them only to fight them in another battle.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #357 - January 15, 2010, 07:20 PM

    @ Islame
    Although I know you won't accept it, here's a brief justification for the *eternity* of Hell for *arrogant* disbelievers:

    Do you really think we are arrogant, if we are willing to go with evidence?   And this arrogance deserves eternal punishment?  Muslims dont even accept evidence, when it comes to evolution.  Can we then call them even more arrogant, and would I then feel comfortable with them being tortured in a potential after-life? Answer is no.  
    Again I could understand this better if it was a manmade religion, i.e. threatening people to believe, because Muhammed never had a personal relationship with an angel or an invisible sky god.
    Quote
    the meeting with Him. Therefor their works are vain, and on the Day of Resurrection We assign no weight to them

    5- After all, in the hereafter we are NOTHING except by His infinite mercy.

    PS. Of course the average person is too arrogant to believe that he could be nothing compared to the infinite God, but anyway, let me ask this question:

    Since you truly believe that men are nothing but sophisticated clumps of atoms (without soul) and all our feelings, including feelings of pain, are ONLY chemical reactions, then what makes you think that an infinite God (assuming He exists) would feel any sorrow if He tortured a clump of atoms for eternity? Since this takes absolutely no effort on the part of God, an eternal torture of mere clumps of atoms should really be nothing to God, right?

    Now I guess your next question would be: why did God create us if we are nothing but specks of dust except by His infinite mercy?

    Ans: no one really knows... angels even asked God why would He create man (especially with his ability to choose to sin) when they (majestic creations of God) worship Him and never disobey Him? and God answered that He knows what the angels didn't know... some speculate that God created man for his ability to learn, but no one really knows... but the bottom line is, we surely aren't just clumps of atoms and whoever thinks that they are, then they really shouldn't object much to the morality behind burning a heap of stardust for eternity.


    But you know this collection of atoms is conscious & can feel pain. Its also the way non-believers are stigmatised as inherently bad & arrogant people, and deserving of this eternal torture.  Why do you think a whole generation of Muslims are not so accepting of disbelievers.  

    What do you put the resultant culture of Islam down too?  You blame bad muslims, but I believe muslims are no different genertically to others.  It can only come down to the religion.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #358 - January 15, 2010, 07:22 PM

    The reason for both is the same: there is no clear verse in the quran asking for graves to not be worshipped or slavery to be abolished.
    I don't understand what you mean? The verse doesn't say they have to start over if they have sex regardless, and without that being mentioned you're making it up.



    Oh please, don't get me started on grave worship.... ummm? Wait! Are you an ex-Muslim who used to worship graves? Anyway, a 1000+ verses said to pray to God alone.. it doesn't get any clearer than that.


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #359 - January 15, 2010, 07:23 PM

    Billy dear, calm down... why are you so angry?

    like i said before it was really unfair when your enemies are given the right to enslave Muslims falling in the Battle field, while Muslims were supposed to release them only to fight them in another battle.


    He's not angry, but apologists are rather frustrating because they go around in circles.

    Look the basic point your missing is that Islam is supposed to be a universal, immutable set of laws. Meaning for all times, and all places. Giving these ridiculous rationalisations is besides the point.

    Is slavery wrong or not according to Islam? Yes or no? Answer is no, Islam recognizes slavery as an institution. You cannot change that simple fact.

    And that simply makes Islam obviously not universal right away, because the rest of mankind has obviously moved beyond Islam and the west is far superior to Islam because they abolished slavery. An act which is against Islam since Islam makes slavery halal.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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