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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hello people

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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #510 - January 16, 2010, 10:10 AM
    Quote from: debunker on January 16, 2010, 02:37 AM
    @ ras.

    Ans: I don't know.

    According to Islam, if I name a certain person and claim they'd go to Hell (or paradise), then I'll be punished by God.. I cannot name persons other than those God Himself named (like the Pharoah for example.)

    Q: So will Mother Teresa go to Hell?

    Ans: I don't know and I am NOT allowed to make such a claim.

    Q: Is Pharoah going to Hell?

    Ans: Yes. God in the Quran told us Pharoah will go to Hell.

    EDIT: Condemning a certain person to Hell is called: التألي على الله.


    I did not ask you to condemn her or say she is in hell, I asked where she must be according to the quran...  Nice way of weaseling out of it.  I also don't know where you go this story of being punished for saying someone is going to hell from..

    Mother Theresa believed in the trinity and that Jesus was the son of god like the vast majority of Christians... According to the Quran's 'logic' where are they going to end up ?  
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #511 - January 16, 2010, 10:12 AM
    Quote from: debunker on January 16, 2010, 05:43 AM
    @ liberated

    well maybe I'm indeed crazy... it's one baby step at a time. thanks for the free session, liberated..

    And good night! (btw, you guys don't seem to sleep... eerie).



    We used to sleep when we were believers. Once you know the truth, you don't waste time sleeping! There is one life. After death, you are fossil fuel (in million years that is!)  Cheesy

    ...
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #512 - January 16, 2010, 10:15 AM
    Quote from: debunker on January 16, 2010, 02:50 AM
    @ liberated

    I'll begin with this: Did the Pharoah drown or was he saved?

    Ans. He drowned, but his body was saved (washed off shore) for everyone to see.


    Which Pharaoh was that?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #513 - January 16, 2010, 11:28 AM
    This thread has gone off the boil. Maybe it should be closed before it turns nasty. The lesson; each to their own - and it also answers the oft asked question - 'why dont more muslims come and debate here?', the answer; absolutely no point, unless one happens to love arguing. I have to say, the ex-muslims seem to get a lot more wound up than the Muslims, in this case anyway. A lot of anger and aggression showing. Relax, enjoy life, it's too short, whether you believe in God or not.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #514 - January 16, 2010, 12:35 PM

    Quote from: ras111 on January 16, 2010, 10:10 AM
    I did not ask you to condemn her or say she is in hell, I asked where she must be according to the quran...  Nice way of weaseling out of it.  I also don't know where you go this story of being punished for saying someone is going to hell from..

    Mother Theresa believed in the trinity and that Jesus was the son of god like the vast majority of Christians... According to the Quran's 'logic' where are they going to end up ? 

    I was going to ask that with his claim that the abrahmics can go to heaven, but there was so much to discuss..  I guess his answer would be that they will go to hell regardless.  If not, then what is the point of following Islam and not eating pigs & mutilating your young childrens penises, if it is not encumbent to even be a muslim?  Looks like we may even did the right thing from a muslim perspective, we have freedom and as long as we try to be good then we'll be saved.  Again none of it makes sense when you analyse it beyond its obvious superficiality. 

    The funny thing is that it all makes sense when you assume it to be manmade.

    No holes/no hoop jumping/ no cognitive dissonance/ no logical fallacies/ no difficulty 'finding logically valid assumptions to quranic contadictions'/ no contradicting modern science/ no following of outmoded practises that bear little relevence to the modern era.

    The futures bright, its time they stopped forcing themselves to live in darkness.
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #515 - January 16, 2010, 12:38 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on January 16, 2010, 11:28 AM
    This thread has gone off the boil. Maybe it should be closed before it turns nasty. The lesson; each to their own - and it also answers the oft asked question - 'why dont more muslims come and debate here?', the answer; absolutely no point, unless one happens to love arguing. I have to say, the ex-muslims seem to get a lot more wound up than the Muslims, in this case anyway. A lot of anger and aggression showing. Relax, enjoy life, it's too short, whether you believe in God or not.

    I wouldnt draw parallels between muslims & ex-muslims in this regard.  Try going to a muslim site, and however objective you may be, post regularly and try staying on that sites for more than 1 week without being banned.

    Tolerance of anothers viewpoint is not something I would give muslims in general an ounce of credit for.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #516 - January 16, 2010, 01:27 PM
    OK in that spirit I want to extend my hand to both debunker and abuyunus and in fact anybody that visits this forum. I am sorry if I came across as very aggressive, debunker. I was honestly getting tired of you circling around with the other posters and decided to "debate" you head on. With no apologies.  Re-reading my last post I fear I might have overdone it. But even an exaggerated account does not change the fundamentals of it.

    There are child-brides in this world. And there are abusive husbands. The problem is you can sanction these in Islam. In the civilized countries there is secular law prohibiting the first, and punishing the second. I know of personal accounts of wives and girlfriends getting physically abused. Simply put, they got their asses kicked.  And it was extremly traumatic for the women.

    I think most people would agree just shouting at somebody, grabbing them by the collar of their shirt or sweater, holding up a clinched fist in the air like you're about to strike down at any minute, would be traumatic. In this example, this could still be in the first part of 4:34. Now imagine hitting her repeatedly in the last part of 4:34.

    I don't like when people try to skirt over 4:34. It's demeaning to the women who have suffered from it and still suffer from it, and will suffer from it in the future. And I will not apologize for that.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #517 - January 16, 2010, 04:48 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 16, 2010, 12:38 PM
    Tolerance of anothers viewpoint is not something I would give muslims in general an ounce of credit for.


    In general, me neither, but it doesn't mean we all have to be like that. And I know, many on here are not like that, which is what makes this forum a cut above the rest.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #518 - January 16, 2010, 05:32 PM
    Hey everyone

    I agree with Jack, yesterday things got slightly out of hand - I'm glad I instead decided to spend a nice evening with the wife and kid quite early into the debate. In retrospect it probably would have been better for debunker to have started his own thread.

    When I first came on here a week ago it was because someone from here left a comment on my blog suggesting I do so. It was never my intention to try and 're-convert' anyone or anything of that nature (indeed my blog itself is of a defensive nature). Neither was I unsure/insecure about my own faith. I just felt there was no reason why we could not be friends and that we could find some common ground. I also felt it would be a good place for discussion - I can't really have a good debate with someone who never was a Muslim as they would be lacking in knowledge and experience and a discussion with another Muslim would also be a bit pointless. I therefore hoped we could reach some truths or near-truths (even this might be stretching it lol!) about Islam together by contributing our contrasting veiwpoints. This is probably why I've always refused the suggestion of a one-on-one debate - these normally turn into pissing contests (as was perhaps the case yesterday evening).

    Yesterday I was called a 'sucker of the devils cock' during a discussion regarding slavery. I don't think this was necessary - talk is cheap. Anyone with an ounce of dignity realises that slavery is detestable - my 10 year old nephew could make a convincing argument of this himself. What I was hoping to discuss was the practical implications of Muhammad making an outright ban in 7th century Arabia, and the fact that Islam encourages the freeing of slaves, orders that they are dealt with kindness, and gave every slave the opportunity to achieve his/her freedom (i.e. after having served a fixed amount of time or after having completed a fixed number of tasks) and the fact that some slaves relied on their keepers for food and shelter. I agree that slavery is halal in Islam and this fact cannot be changed. But I don't think this necessarily means that the practice is not hated by God.

    I'm not sure how much more I'll continue to post on here but I will definitly come round to say hello every now and then and answer a question or two.

    Peace

    Abu Yunus
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #519 - January 16, 2010, 05:33 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on January 16, 2010, 04:48 PM
    In general, me neither, but it doesn't mean we all have to be like that. And I know, many on here are not like that, which is what makes this forum a cut above the rest.


    Quite a valid point there
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #520 - January 16, 2010, 05:41 PM
    Ibn Saba

    I'm not sure if you've been following the debate but I left an answer for your question earlier - to save you having to dig through the last 10 or 12 pages looking for it, here it is again:

    Hi Ibn Saba,

    I went back to relocate your question. tbh I've never known what to make of these signs since a lot of them come from hadith. God tells us in the Quran that Jesus was not killed and that he was 'raised up' - will he ever return to Earth to die as a mortal?, possibly it would make sense, but I don't know. The Gog and Magog people are mentioned in the Quran as a sign for the end of time but the Quran does not give any details regarding their nature. Although some hadith suggest they may be non-human (ET?!), I cannot comment on their accuracy. Regarding Dajjal/Imam Mahdi again these are taken from the hadith and I would not like to comment on their accuracy i.e. sometimes these stories in the hadith are borrowed from other religions, thus the whole antichrist/dajjal thing may possibly be conjecture rather than the Prophets actual words.

    I've never paid much attention to the 'minor signs'.

    (ps I will write a new entry in my blog soon addressing why hadith and tafsir in general shouldn't be considered a credible source of history or necessarilly accurate accounts of the Prophets words/actions)

    Of course the knowledge of the end of time is with God alone. Do I think it will be any time soon? No. The reason is (and this is of course my personal view) that I think we as humans have achieved a hell of a lot in recent times and we still have the potential to achieve many more great things. Humanity does face some problems but I still think we have amazing potential. I think things would need to go downhill somewhat considerably before God decides to call time on us. These are of course purely my personal conjecture.

    I hope you found my answer of some use.

    Abu Yunus
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #521 - January 16, 2010, 05:41 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 16, 2010, 05:32 PM
    I agree that slavery is halal in Islam and this fact cannot be changed. But I don't think this necessarily means that the practice is not hated by God.


    Do you not see how oxymoronic this statement is?   wacko

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #522 - January 16, 2010, 05:54 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 16, 2010, 05:32 PM
    Yesterday I was called a 'sucker of the devils cock' during a discussion regarding slavery. I don't think this was necessary - talk is cheap.


    Abu Yunus - I said this:


    Quote
    Slavery sucks the devil's cock, all those who apologise for it suck the devil's cock too, any religion that institutionalised and post facto renders apologia for slavery......well, you get the drift.


    I don't apologise for saying that. If you feel implicated in it, that's more your own sense of being part of that formulation. Although if anyone is offended in general by the image of Satanic fellatio, I apologise in a general, formal and aesthetic sense.

    Anyway, you just said the following, which makes me even less apologetic for the vehemence of my words:

    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 16, 2010, 05:32 PM
    I agree that slavery is halal in Islam and this fact cannot be changed. But I don't think this necessarily means that the practice is not hated by God.


    So, Allah does not shy away from annihilating with rhetoric all that he detests in Islam. There are many things which he forbids. And yet he is very shy and circumspect in denouncing slavery, in fact, Islam, the eternal, un-relativisable, immutable light of God and humanity, is a religion that institutionalised slavery. Why are you so sure that Allah hates slavery, when it is low on the list of myriad things that he explicitly forbids? Isn't Islam and Allah eternally relevant, immutable, and correct in every matter for all time? And if Allah could recite his words so mankind could know his writ, are you seriously telling us that he was too weak to deal with the practise of slavery in anything other than the most explicit, forbidding terms? Or were Muslims just too fond of their slaves?












    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #523 - January 16, 2010, 06:09 PM
    Quote
    What I was hoping to discuss was the practical implications of Muhammad making an outright ban in 7th century Arabia, and the fact that Islam encourages the freeing of slaves, orders that they are dealt with kindness, and gave every slave the opportunity to achieve his/her freedom (i.e. after having served a fixed amount of time or after having completed a fixed number of tasks) and the fact that some slaves relied on their keepers for food and shelter. I agree that slavery is halal in Islam and this fact cannot be changed. But I don't think this necessarily means that the practice is not hated by God.


    You mean in 23 years there was not enough time to abolish this? Or 10-13 years in Medina? Or planning ahead and promoting one of his friends to be in charge after his death and follow out his plans, one of them being the abolishment of slavery?

    You mean he abolished foster brotherhood but he didn't abolish slavery? Could he have not created a system where all slaves that are freed should be taken in as foster brothers and given a chance to get back into society? Say you are my slave. I free you. And invite you into my home to be my brother, or we build a house for you and it will be responsibility to help you to get back on your feet. If I don't want to? I think Muslims/Pagan Arabs didn't want to do a lot of things, that's what all the hell verses are there for. But they are instead used to put fear into believing Allah and the Prophet. And not directly the fear of doing immoral acts, you know like keeping slaves.

    Surat Al-Slaves

    Allah despises the man or woman that keeps another human being as a slave, whether man or woman. I have created mankind to be free. And only answer to the One True Master. Are you not ashamed to call yourselves masters of other human being, and yet you are mere mortals? Can a mere mortal master death? Nay! To hell with all those whom enslave another human being and those who do not emancipate their slaves. Surely, the wicked shall suffer a terrible and eternal torment.

    Not to mention that Allah is the God of OT and NT. You're telling me slavery is prohibited in the Bible? Or God did not plan ahead and from the start made sure to protect the scriptures, or being adamant on prohibiting slavery?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #524 - January 16, 2010, 06:24 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 16, 2010, 05:32 PM
    Anyone with an ounce of dignity realises that slavery is detestable - my 10 year old nephew could make a convincing argument of this himself.



    I apologize ahead for my sardonic wit but I couldn't resist. Are you saying your 10 year old nephew is of a better moral character than the Most Merciful? Surely that is shirk?  Cheesy I guess you'll be going to hell for that, don't worry you'll be in good company  Afro
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #525 - January 16, 2010, 06:44 PM
    you're a funny girl blackdog  Afro
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #526 - January 16, 2010, 06:47 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 16, 2010, 05:41 PM
    (ps I will write a new entry in my blog soon addressing why hadith and tafsir in general shouldn't be considered a credible source of history or necessarilly accurate accounts of the Prophets words/actions)

    Cool.  So you have intelligently rejected 300+ books.  Just one more left to go  whistling2

    I hope you realise the ramifications in doing so. If you reject their authenticity, then you have to reject all of it, the whole kit & caboodle.  It would be disengenuous to do otherwise. Like I said before, even circumcision (a practice carried out by ancient egyptians) would have to go as it is not referenced in the quran.  Have you thought about this stance?

    You cant select the good bits, because once their authority has been questioned, then how do you know that Allah wanted you to follow the good bit as its phrased, and not a variant of it?  

    Particularly as the prophet obviously never even wanted it writing down, and wanted to rely on oral tradition.  

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #527 - January 16, 2010, 07:34 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 16, 2010, 06:44 PM
    you're a funny guy blackdog  Afro


    There that's more accurate now. And thanks, I was going to win Jester of the Month but Iblis rigged the election. Something about Floridan CEMB members messing it up Cheesy

    j/k Iblis  grin12
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #528 - January 16, 2010, 07:43 PM
    oops, my bad. Do you think if I start using really long words that no-one understands like Billy I can win poster of the month?  Roll Eyes
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #529 - January 16, 2010, 07:46 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 16, 2010, 07:43 PM
    oops, my bad. Do you think if I start using really long words that no-one understands like Billy I can win poster of the month?  Roll Eyes


    As long as you make intelligent and educative posts then I don't see why not? Smiley
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #530 - January 16, 2010, 08:02 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on January 16, 2010, 06:24 PM
    I apologize ahead for my sardonic wit but I couldn't resist. Are you saying your 10 year old nephew is of a better moral character than the Most Merciful? Surely that is shirk?  Cheesy I guess you'll be going to hell for that, don't worry you'll be in good company  Afro


    Well spotted mate, I missed that one  Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #531 - January 16, 2010, 08:04 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 16, 2010, 07:43 PM
    oops, my bad. Do you think if I start using really long words that no-one understands like Billy I can win poster of the month?  Roll Eyes


    Hey dude, don't ascribe your incomprehension to others, they all get what I'm saying fine  Afro

    In the meantime, you might find this helpful:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #532 - January 16, 2010, 08:05 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 16, 2010, 07:43 PM
    oops, my bad. Do you think if I start using really long words that no-one understands like Billy I can win poster of the month?  Roll Eyes


    I nominate Abuyunis for Poster of the month for this 34 pages long thread, although I disagree with most of what he said  Afro
    ...
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #533 - January 16, 2010, 08:08 PM

    Yeah me too - if nominated I shall vote for him  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #534 - January 16, 2010, 08:15 PM
    ''Yeah me too - if nominated I shall vote for him''

    Cool, I'm off to buy a theasaurus
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #535 - January 16, 2010, 08:29 PM
    Quote
    I'm off to buy a theasaurus


    Save your money mate  Afro

    http://thesaurus.reference.com/

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #536 - January 16, 2010, 08:55 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 16, 2010, 08:04 PM
    Hey dude, don't ascribe your incomprehension to others, they all get what I'm saying fine  Afro

    In the meantime, you might find this helpful:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/



    That's it I'm nominating you for Jester of the Month. Along with Q-Man. You guys will have to battle it out.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #537 - January 16, 2010, 08:59 PM
    @ Ella

    Quote
    Ok, I am not trawling through the mass of pages looking for your reply, did you manage to dig up tha hadith you were talking about debunker?


    No. not yet.

    @ sky

    I'm only here visiting briefly, going back to FFI soon.

    @ ras111

    Quote
    I did not ask you to condemn her or say she is in hell, I asked where she must be according to the quran...  Nice way of weaseling out of it.  I also don't know where you go this story of being punished for saying someone is going to hell from..

    Mother Theresa believed in the trinity and that Jesus was the son of god like the vast majority of Christians... According to the Quran's 'logic' where are they going to end up ?  

     

    Anyone who believes in the Trinity and Jesus is God will go to Hell. Still, I can't name persons. Like I said this is called التالي على الله look it up (and if you don't speak Arabic, ask Hassan about it.)

    Quote
    Which Pharaoh was that?

     

    You know which one... the one who challenged Moses.

    @ Islame

    You have this weird approach of attacking an argument that was never made in the first place. Again, Anyone, Jew, Christian, Muslim or whomever prays to anyone other than God, goes to Hell.

    @ Yunus

    Quote
    In retrospect it probably would have been better for debunker to have started his own thread.

     

    Sorry for highjacking your thread. I only decided to join after I saw Hassan contributing. But I hope you won't associate the change of tone with my presense here. It was only a matter of time till they did, with or without my contributing.

    Anyway, that shall be my cue.

    PS. My advice to you is to stop posting in forums. It might get addictive ESPECIALLY if you're looking to PROCRASTINATE. Anyway, if you're already hooked, then I suggest you take a look at FFI. The only problem with FFI is that it's full of nauseatingly hypocritical Christian missionaries and that the message of its founder is: Apostate or your countries shall be ruled with an iron fist.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #538 - January 16, 2010, 09:29 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 16, 2010, 08:59 PM
    Anyone who believes in the Trinity and Jesus is God will go to Hell.

    Mother Teresa is going to hell, after spending her life unselfishly devoted to saving other peoples lives in a foreign land  mysmilie_977  I just cant believe you can see it.

    The quran is sending her to hell for mistakenly following a corrupted message.  She will be tortured in hell forever for this minor of sins, yet Bin Laden still has chance? 

    Again it all makes sense if its man-made, all part & parcel of extending this virulent meme (http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/terrifying-brilliance-of-islamic.html). 

    Sorry, but its sounds like you've been conned. 

    P.S Watch out for emails from Nigerians claiming they want to donate billions of dollars into our account.  Just because they say so, it doesnt make it true.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #539 - January 16, 2010, 09:41 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 16, 2010, 08:59 PM
    Anyone who believes in the Trinity and Jesus is God will go to Hell.


    Good to know that we've cleared that up then...  Lovely sense of justice that is...


    Quote from: debunker on January 16, 2010, 08:59 PM

    You know which one... the one who challenged Moses.



    No I don't actually... Which one challenged Moses?  They have names you know...
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
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