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 Topic: Hello people

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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #540 - January 16, 2010, 10:10 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 16, 2010, 09:29 PM

    Again it all makes sense if its man-made, all part & parcel of extending this virulent meme (http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/terrifying-brilliance-of-islamic.html). 




    Quote
    A Muslim man has a chance of getting to heaven if he is a good Muslim, but it is not guaranteed. However, if he dies while fighting for Islam, he is guaranteed to get in, and that's the only thing he can do to guarantee it.


    This is a surprise. Surely an exaggeration? Has anybody else heard of this?

    Also a comment the blogger made:

    Quote
    I came across another meme that makes Islam so effective: No peace agreements can last longer than ten years. So in other words, no peace agreements. It is more accurate to call them temporary truces.


    Is this true? Damn why can't they provide with sources.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #541 - January 16, 2010, 10:17 PM
    Those points were not the ones I was making, nor even the right wing slant of the article - just havent seen a better source articulating the Islamic meme.  It was the broad point on how a falsitude can spead, just by having the properties of a meme - irrelevent of whether its true or not.   

    The rest of the stuff, I cant vouch for I am afraid.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #542 - January 16, 2010, 10:44 PM
    This thread was so much 'fun', apparently I missed a lot  finmad
    Quote from: BlackDog on January 16, 2010, 10:10 PM
    This is a surprise. Surely an exaggeration? Has anybody else heard of this?

    Also a comment the blogger made:

    Is this true? Damn why can't they provide with sources.

    I know the first one is true, or at least what I have been told. You can't be 100% sure you will go to heaven unless you are a shaheed, which is kinda scary. Some have said that Muslims are only going to hell for a short period(depending on the amount of sinning they did), but that's even more scary considering that it kinda implies that nearly everyone is going to have a taste of hell as it's practically impossible to not sin at all.
    I mean look at it this way. What's the point of praying, fasting , and abstinence from alcohol, adultery and other things if all you needed to get into heaven was being a 'Muslim'?

    About the second one, I really dunno, but doubt it's true.
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #543 - January 16, 2010, 11:21 PM
    @Debunker: You would expect and you would have hoped that, the stories in the koran are actually 'adding' to each other.

    Unfortunately they do not add to each other. They are discontinuous. And if you put them one of the other you end up with something that sounds Stupid: I will give you 1000$. No I will give you 10.000$. No no no I will not give you money, I will make the car worth 100$.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #544 - January 16, 2010, 11:28 PM
    and the quran is supposedly protected by Allah   Roll Eyes Ive seen 3 year old write a more consistent story line..
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #545 - January 16, 2010, 11:36 PM
    Quote from: Baal on January 16, 2010, 11:21 PM
    @Debunker: You would expect and you would have hoped that, the stories in the koran are actually 'adding' to each other.

    Unfortunately they do not add to each other. They are discontinuous. And if you put them one of the other you end up with something that sounds Stupid: I will give you 1000$. No I will give you 10.000$. No no no I will not give you money, I will make the car worth 100$.



    Are you saying you'd give me your car for $100?! Do you live in the US? Who would pay for delivery? And most importantly, what make is it?!  dance
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #546 - January 17, 2010, 02:58 AM
    debunker, let me spare you the shame. order this book:

    Quote
    A Simple Koran

    The standard Koran is arranged by length of chapter. The longest chapter is at the beginning and the shortest chapters are at the end. This makes it confusing and hard to understand. Now you can read and understand A SIMPLE KORAN. The words of the Koran are woven back into the historical life of Mohammed. In actual fact, the Koran did unfold over the course of Mohammed's life. A SIMPLE KORAN recreates the historical order of the Koran of Mohammed's day. The first chapters start with Mohammed's first recitations and the last chapters are those he recited before he died. Mohammed's life gives the Koran clarity and meaning. It becomes a powerful, epic story. Read A SIMPLE KORAN. It will change the way you see the world's events.


    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0978552881?ie=UTF8&tag=lighthousesound&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0978552881

    Read that and come back to us.

    Seriously. I want to know if it's worth ordering  grin12
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #547 - January 19, 2010, 07:55 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 16, 2010, 08:59 PM

    @ Yunus
     

    Sorry for highjacking your thread. I only decided to join after I saw Hassan contributing. But I hope you won't associate the change of tone with my presense here. It was only a matter of time till they did, with or without my contributing.

    Anyway, that shall be my cue.

    PS. My advice to you is to stop posting in forums. It might get addictive ESPECIALLY if you're looking to PROCRASTINATE. Anyway, if you're already hooked, then I suggest you take a look at FFI. The only problem with FFI is that it's full of nauseatingly hypocritical Christian missionaries and that the message of its founder is: Apostate or your countries shall be ruled with an iron fist.


    debunker, no worries my friend. Your knowlege of Quran is far superior to mine so I welcome your opinions (although I do not always agree with what you say i.e. the fact that we were all initially created to be destined for hell).  I probably won't continue to post on forums too much as it is too time-consuming with a small child - but I do hope you will continue to, as you seem to have particularly intelleigent views to offer and seem like a decent guy that people wont mind debating with.

    Take care
    Abu Yunus
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #548 - January 21, 2010, 07:23 PM
    .
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #549 - January 23, 2010, 06:20 PM
    colour me tooootally shawked. 
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #550 - January 23, 2010, 08:42 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on January 21, 2010, 07:23 PM
    .


    Are you waiting for a response? :S I'm trying to figure out why you and Manat bumped the thread. Are you waiting for a response to Baal's request?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #551 - January 23, 2010, 08:44 PM
    No sorry.  It was something I had intended to post in another thread, but I posted it here by mistake and I couldn't delete it.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #552 - January 23, 2010, 08:46 PM
    Yeah I don't understand, how come we can only delete certain posts we make? How long do we have that option?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #553 - January 23, 2010, 09:12 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 16, 2010, 11:36 PM
    Are you saying you'd give me your car for $100?! Do you live in the US? Who would pay for delivery? And most importantly, what make is it?!  dance

    The car is made by allah, it has the insides of a Rolls Royce and the outside of a Bentley and drives like a Beemer. Not my favorite car but it is up for grabs. After you die of course.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #554 - February 21, 2010, 05:05 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 01:09 PM
    @ Yunus

    65:4 said: those who did not menstruate (there' no "yet" in the verse.) I understand it as "those who did not menstruate (when divorced)" should wait 3 months before remarrying (after all, the verse was talking about divorcing *WOMEN*).

    Anyway, here's an excellent article by Sam Shamoun.

    **answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/marriage_age.html**
    Using Tafsir + Hadith, Sam Shamoun did 2 things:
    1- He proved that 4:6 contradicts 65:4 on the age of marriage.
    2- Muhammed violated 4:6

    I agree with Sam Shmoun's analysis (which was based on Hadith & Tasfsir) 100%. The *great scholars* contradicted themselves when interpreting both 4:6 and 65:4. Our great scholars never cease to astonish!

    And by the way, Sam Shamoun noted that Bukhari was the *first scholar* to have the opinion that 65:4 implied marriage before puberty was OK. So it's no wonder that the rest of all the scholars followed Bukhari's opinion on this verse (while they contradicted themselves on 4:6). [scholars are repackaging of each other].

    As for Muslims who follow Tafsir 4:6 DOES define the age of marriage to be reaching puberty (or 15 years). And that's what Shamoun did! He laughed at the Tafsir for defining the age of marriage to be reaching puberty WHILE again according to Tafsir, 65:4 implies that pre-puscent girls can be married. So again, as per Tafsir there IS a contradiction and Shamoun pointed that out.

    The language of the verse didn't change in anyway to indicate a shift from talking about women to talking about children. So by default the verse is still talking about divorcing women. A woman who was divorced while not having a period must wait 3 months. (because she might be pregnant). As you know, the only reason for a waiting period of 3 months is to avoid a pregnancy wrongly associated with the new husband.

    In any case, the point is for women who did not menstruate (for whatever reason, other than old age/pregnancy) then they should wait 3 months to be sure they're not pregnant (some womendo miss their periods for as simple a reason as stress... so the best option in this case is to wait 3 months to make sure there's no pregnancy)

    As for why every single scholar is of the same opinion as of Bukhari, it's because Bukhari said so... in case you haven't noticed, he's practically a second prophet for Muslims.


    What does Sam end this article with?

    Quote
    So now we have a contradiction between two directives of the Quran, one that presupposes a marriageable age for girls and the other which places no limits on the age a girl can get married!

    Hence, no matter from what angle a Muslim tries to examine this, Muhammad still turns out to be guilty of breaking his own commands and of introducing contradictory teachings within his so-called miracle, the Quran.


    What did you do? You chose to pick the contradiction of the tafsir. And then say it talks about women. While Sam is of another opinion and Muslim scholars are also of another opinion. You have chosen the interpretation of facts to suit you.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #555 - February 21, 2010, 05:45 PM
    Ok forget about Sam's opinion... what's wrong with my argument?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #556 - February 21, 2010, 06:04 PM
    You need to translate it literally for me. My arabic is not good enough.

    Abdel Haleem
    65 (4) If you are in doubt, the period of waiting will be three months for those women who have ceased menstruating and for those who have not [yet] menstruated; the waiting period of those who are pregnant will be until they deliver their burden: God makes things easy for those who are mindful of Him.

    My issue is:

    Abdul Haleem
    and for those who have not [yet] menstruated

    I interpret this as it says. Those who for whatever reason not menstruated yet. Their waiting period is also 3 months. Means you can marry somebody who has not menstruated yet. Since there is an allowance for divorcing them.

    It's strange I would think somebody realizes that there is no point in waiting 3 months for somebody that does not menstruate. This either shows that they didn't know non-menstruating females can not have children? Because they are not yet mature. Or for whatever reason you haven't had menstruation and then you should wait to make sure they are not pregnant. But how can this condition last for 3 months?

    And this condition is called on in the first line:

    Abdul Haleem
    If you are in doubt, the period of waiting will be three months for those women who have ceased menstruating

    These are older women who no longer menstruate. If the condition is called for then why the need for the second condition?

    and for those who have not [yet] menstruated;

    I honestly look at this and think that you can marry somebody who has not menstruated. But in order to have sex with her she has to attain age of puberty? :S

    In your case you think this means women, since it does not switch from women to girls. But then why say:


    and for those who have not [yet] menstruated;

    Who is this regarding? What women that have attained puberty have not yet menstruated? How is this even possible? Attainment of puberty begins with menstruation does it not?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #557 - February 21, 2010, 06:33 PM
    adding [yet] clearly means little girls, except [yet] is NOT in the verse... like I said before, translation is partly interpretation based on Sunni Tafsir.

    Literal Translation:

    And those of your women who gave up on menstruation, if in doubt, their Iddah is 3 months -- and those who did not menstruate -- and the pregant ones their period is until they give birth....

    Now, the whole point I was trying to make is when Sunnis say we should follow Tafsir of this verse (which is reaally based on Bukhari's opinion), I respond to them if you follow it, then your beloved Tafsir contradicts itself on verse 4:6.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #558 - February 21, 2010, 06:46 PM
    mm good point I have to say I am impressed you crafty bastard  Cheesy

    so you have solved the contradictions, by removing the yet, the verse shows it talks about women, not really explaining who these women are those who did not menstruate and what the difference between them And those of your women who gave up on menstruation is.

    and the second verse attains to puberty.. it does not really say how puberty is attained in the quran, how do you get around this problem?

    two more questions, do you consider yourself to be sunni? or just muslim? if sunni why not be shia? why not sufi?

    Do you think women should wear hijab?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #559 - February 21, 2010, 07:12 PM
    Quote
    mm good point I have to say I am impressed you crafty bastard  

    so you have solved the contradictions, by removing the yet, the verse shows it talks about women, not really explaining who these women are those who did not menstruate and what the difference between them And those of your women who gave up on menstruation is.

     

    gave up on mentruation as in got too old and they're not menstruating any more... in fact, the verse says that just to be sure they should wait 3 months.

    Now those women who did not menstruate (for whatever reason) should wait for 3 months too... the verse does not discuss why they're not menstruating but women could skip periods for as trivial a reason as stress (in addition to hordes of other reasons).

    Quote
    and the second verse attains to puberty.. it does not really say how puberty is attained in the quran, how do you get around this problem?


    I'll give you that.. the verse is not specific, but hey, I'm speaking to the Tafsir loving hordes... if they want to take Tafsir of 65:4 then they should remember Tafsir of 4:6 and face the silly contradiction of Tafsir.

    Quote
    two more questions, do you consider yourself to be sunni? or just muslim? if sunni why not be shia? why not sufi?


    Muslim, somewhere between Mutazilites and Sunnis.

    Why not Shia? Because they pray for intercession from Muhammed/Ali/Fatimah/Hussein/etc PLUS they give far too much importance to Muhammed, Ali and his family as if they were gods!

    Why not Sufi?
    Because they carve out God according to their desires PLUS they worship their Mullahs (well, Sunnis do it too but to a much lesser degree).

    Quote
    Do you think women should wear hijab?

     

    ABSOLUTELY NOT! This is speaking in terms of Hijab in the West... But when it comes to the Arab world, they need to kill alomst all men before women can throw out the Hijab  Cheesy
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #560 - February 21, 2010, 07:31 PM
    *warning rant transmission proceeding*

    lol i dont think we will ever agree, and im starting to think the interpretation of the quran is problematic.. the words bend.. way too much.. not as sturdy as latin for example

    in the end the macro big world picture is the problem, and in itself thats an issue because it requires a lot of study and evidence..

    the micro arguments can carry on for ages, and requires in depth knowledge of classical arabic

    but islam is not different from any other religion

    the macro argument of:

    God, proof of existence, what are the attributes of this God, why the need for God?

    Religion - Why is it needed? Can we honestly say we can not be moral with out. If we look at its history can we honestly say the hands of men havnt been all over it? if we look at history what do we see? religion being used as power as a tool to gain terrorize and get people mobilized under one flag

    Origins of life or how life has evolved, the myth of religion falls here

    the history of the world as compared to religion, i think groups of people will create a pseudo-history to big themselves up

    the problems with supernatural, superstitions and etc, lack of evidence in light of science

    my problems how did universe start, origins of life? uncertainty of life after death, and the frailty of mind especially in light of more that 2 decades of hell indoctrination

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #561 - February 21, 2010, 07:37 PM
    just to answer two of your questions....

    1- morality does NOT need religion.
    2- People invent reasons to be violent, so no, violence does NOT require religion. And those people blowing themselves up are only trying to deify themselves.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #562 - February 21, 2010, 07:48 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 21, 2010, 07:37 PM
    1- morality does NOT need religion.


    I agree with you, Debunker, but I'm not sure where morality comes from?

    Do you think it is an instinctive nature/Fitrah inbuilt by a supernatural power?

    Or is it a sort of functional thing, evolved from the necessity to survive and organise society so we can function effectively?

    If it is the first - why is there so much variation and disagreement on what is moral or immoral? (actually I think we agree on a great deal - but it cannot be denied we disagree on a great deal too - and our morality appears to vary from place to place and shifted over time too!)
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #563 - February 21, 2010, 07:49 PM
    Debunker have you ever read a Sira of the Prophet? And cover to cover? One based on the earliest of sources. Way before Bukhari.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #564 - February 22, 2010, 01:17 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 21, 2010, 07:48 PM
    I agree with you, Debunker, but I'm not sure where morality comes from?

    Do you think it is an instinctive nature/Fitrah inbuilt by a supernatural power?

    Or is it a sort of functional thing, evolved from the necessity to survive and organise society so we can function effectively?


    I believe everything's created by a supernatural power.

    Quote
    If it is the first - why is there so much variation and disagreement on what is moral or immoral? (actually I think we agree on a great deal - but it cannot be denied we disagree on a great deal too - and our morality appears to vary from place to place and shifted over time too!)


    I don't know but our species was created to be different, unlike other species where members of the same speicies behave almost exactly the same.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #565 - February 22, 2010, 01:19 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on February 21, 2010, 07:49 PM
    Debunker have you ever read a Sira of the Prophet? And cover to cover? One based on the earliest of sources. Way before Bukhari.


    nope.. but I think the earliest biography is by Ibn Ishaq (written 100 years after the prophet's death).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #566 - February 27, 2010, 12:14 AM
    OMG - just been checking the forum stats and this thread along with the FFI vs COEM thread have already made it into the top 10 EVER threads by number of replies, and these 2 are still running  Huh?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #567 - February 27, 2010, 12:21 AM
    AbuYunus, you damn attention whore.  Roll Eyes Afro
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #568 - February 27, 2010, 09:13 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 27, 2010, 12:14 AM
    OMG - just been checking the forum stats and this thread along with the FFI vs COEM thread have already made it into the top 10 EVER threads by number of replies, and these 2 are still running  Huh?


    Haha not in my stats, the FFI vs COEM has taken the number 10 spot, but this thread hasn't hit my stats yet, cos we have threads in the modbox that are in the top 10.  Tongue

    Got to try harder Mr Yunus.  dance
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #569 - February 27, 2010, 04:55 PM
    Berbs/Mods - why's this?  how come both these threads have got into our top 10 when this forum has been running for years Huh?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
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