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 Topic: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon

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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #90 - January 19, 2010, 04:08 PM
    popcorn
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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #91 - January 19, 2010, 04:37 PM
    Quote from: pure.virtual on January 19, 2010, 03:43 PM
    intresting....so when a hadith contradicts qoran we write off the hadith because we know the qoran is much respected than the hadith!

    ok so what happens for all the other hadith that don't have a contradiction in the qoran (think the qoran never mentioned that topic)
    how can we claim that hadith is a legitimate source of information when we have presence of information that is contradictory of the true knowladge(the qoran) in the same source?


    I'm not sure what you're trying to say... but ask yourself this question: Who gave the authority to Bukhari et al, after 200 years of the prophet's death, to reject literally hundreds of thousands of Hadiths? Ans: no one.

    EDIT: perhaps I partially understood your question... Bukhari et al, chose to keep Hadiths, not based on their contents but based onthe chain of narration... they scrutinized (the historical) credibility of the narrators (Bukhari implemented the harshest standards), but like I said they didn't care about the contents of the Hadith itself... that's why we have funny Hadiths like the world is ending in the 8th century.

    Besides, the Quran was compiled into a book only 20 years after the prophet's death, while Hadith was collected 200 years later. PLUS ALL of the Quran is Mutawatir while ~10% of Hadith is Mutawatir. PLUS the Quran claims it incorruptibility while Hadith claims its corruptibility PLUS the Quran is a sacred book while Hadith isn't.

    Conclusion: OF course Hadith does NOT compare to Quran and any account in Hadith contradicting Quran must be rejected immediately.. that's why Muslim scholars tried to add to the clean up efforts of Bukhari but they were vehemently attacked.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #92 - January 19, 2010, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 19, 2010, 04:37 PM
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say... but ask yourself this question: Who gave the authority to Bukhari et al, after 200 years of the prophet's death, to reject literally hundreds of thousands of Hadiths? Ans: no one.

    EDIT: perhaps I partially understood your question... Bukhari et al, chose to keep Hadiths, not based on their contents but based onthe chain of narration... they scrutinized (the historical) credibility of the narrators (Bukhari implemented the harshest standards), but like I said they didn't care about the contents of the Hadith itself... that why we have funny Hadiths like the world is ending in the 8th century.

    ok some clarification: I'm not questioning your authority or bokharies authority of reviewing hadith(not now)
    the question I'm asking is

    if hadith is proven to have faults....in scene that it sometimes contradicts qoran
    how can hadith be a true pure source of knowledge??

    that is, if the process that gave us the hadith today gave us faulty hadith that is in contradiction with the qoran, how can we dim hadith to be true

    isn't there possibility that other hadith that has no contradiction in the qoran yet been forged and not been said by mohammad had made it way into our hadith book?
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #93 - January 19, 2010, 04:54 PM
    Quote
    if hadith is proven to have faults....in scene that it sometimes contradicts qoran
    how can hadith be a true pure source of knowledge??

     

    Oh, Hadith IS a corrupted source... no body denies that...  Sunnis just like to pretend that Bukhari almost solved the problem of Hadith's corruption... that's all.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #94 - January 19, 2010, 05:03 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 19, 2010, 04:54 PM
    Oh, Hadith IS a corrupted source... no body denies that...  Sunnis just like to pretend that Bukhari almost solved the problem of Hadith's corruption... that's all.

    ok so if hadith is corrupted how could you support qoran as being "non corrupted" as it was gathered and published by the same mechanism?
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #95 - January 19, 2010, 05:21 PM
    Have read anything I wrote? Again:


    the Quran was compiled into a book only 20 years after the prophet's death, while Hadith was collected 200 years later. PLUS ALL of the Quran is *Mutawatir* while only ~10% of Hadith is Mutawatir. PLUS the Quran claims it incorruptibility while Hadith claims its corruptibility PLUS the Quran is a sacred book while Hadith isn't.

    Conclusion: OF course Hadith does NOT compare to Quran and any account in Hadith contradicting Quran must be rejected immediately.. that's why Muslim scholars tried to add to the clean up efforts of Bukhari but they were vehemently attacked.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #96 - January 19, 2010, 05:24 PM
    @ virtual

    the first movement of rejecting, at least, huge parts of Hadith was by the Mutazilte sect which appeared about 100 years after the prophet's death (and they were vehemently attacked by the Sunni sect).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu'tazili

    There are 3 types of Hadith (Mutawatir, Mashhour and Ahad).. The Mutaziltes rejected all Hadiths except Mutawatir (which is a tiny part of Hadith).

    Quote
    The first type is diffusely recurrent (mutawatir) reports ? those that have come down to later generations through a large number of chains of narration, involving diverse transmitters such that it is virtually impossible that all these people, living in different localities and espousing (at times radically) different views, would come together, fabricate the exact same lie and attribute it to the Prophet of Islam or any other authority. A large number of narrators is not a sufficient criterion for authenticating a report because people belonging to some sect or party may have an interest in fabricating reports that promote their agendas. The power of this mode of transmission, tawatur, rests on both the number and diversity of narrators at each stage of transmission. On the other hand, the authenticity of the second type of reports, those which do not meet the criteria for tawatur, is considered speculative.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #97 - January 19, 2010, 05:27 PM
    Quote from: pure.virtual on January 19, 2010, 05:03 PM
    ok so if hadith is corrupted how could you support qoran as being "non corrupted" as it was gathered and published by the same mechanism?

    I am not defending/against anyone here, but the hadith and the Qur'an did not have the same mechanism. As far as I know the Qur'an was actually written at the time of Mohammed, but was *collected* few decades after his death. It was a messy procedure, with the confusion on some different Qur'ans and burning the ones deemed wrong ('Allah protects it' my ass), but it doesn't compare to hadith collection. You could argue (debunker) that I got the accounts of the confusion over Qur'an's collection from hadith though.
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #98 - January 19, 2010, 05:31 PM
    @ Infidel

    Actually my understanding is that not all the Quran was written when the prophet was alive, parts of it were memorized... the point is though, ALL the Quran is Mutawatir PLUS it was compiled into a book within 20 years (as opposed to 200).

    Anyway, any Arabic speaker can easily see that the language style of the Quran is very different from any other Arabic text including Hadith.  

    BTW, the pic in your signature makes me feel guilty for procrastinating.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #99 - January 19, 2010, 05:44 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 19, 2010, 05:21 PM
    Have read anything I wrote? Again:

    the Quran was compiled into a book only 20 years after the prophet's death, while Hadith was collected 200 years later. PLUS ALL of the Quran is *Mutawatir* while only ~10% of Hadith is Mutawatir. PLUS the Quran claims it incorruptibility while Hadith claims its corruptibility PLUS the Quran is a sacred book while Hadith isn't.

    Conclusion: OF course Hadith does NOT compare to Quran and any account in Hadith contradicting Quran must be rejected immediately.. that's why Muslim scholars tried to add to the clean up efforts of Bukhari but they were vehemently attacked.


    1- qoran was collected after a while of mohammad death, hadith after a bigger slice of time (make qoran more statistically right and not entirely right)
    2- I know the devisions of hadith and qoran and that only motawatr qoran verses are put into the qoran, however their are motawater hadith and you are discrediting that also, so why motawatir hadith be wrong and qoran be right
    4- qoran is a sacred book because it is true, true because it is sacred!!! isn't that circular?

    Quote from: Infidel on January 19, 2010, 05:27 PM
    I am not defending/against anyone here, but the hadith and the Qur'an did not have the same mechanism. As far as I know the Qur'an was actually written at the time of Mohammed, but was *collected* few decades after his death. It was a messy procedure, with the confusion on some different Qur'ans and burning the ones deemed wrong ('Allah protects it' my ass), but it doesn't compare to hadith collection. You could argue (debunker) that I got the accounts of the confusion over Qur'an's collection from hadith though.

    qoran was written PARTIALLY at the days of mohammad that is true, but remember that othman composed a book out of all the versions afterwards and burned a lot of the writings, don't confuse that a significant amount of the verses written was not accepted in the final version for they were thought they are wrong or in contradictory to the other parts.

    so how is that another mechanism, its just variation of time and means of storage at best!

    their is also the memorized part that was gathered just as the motaward hadith, isn't that the same



  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #100 - January 19, 2010, 05:50 PM
    @ virtual

    Quote
    2- I know the devisions of hadith and qoran and that only motawatr qoran verses are put into the qoran, however their are motawater hadith and you are discrediting that also, so why motawatir hadith be wrong and qoran be right


    Who said Mutawatir Hadith is corrupted? i said Hadith is corrupted (as a whole). Besides, Mutawatir Quran is much stronger than Mutawatir Hadith because the chain is much much shorter.

    Quote
    4- qoran is a sacred book because it is true, true because it is sacred!!! isn't that circular?


    I'm just making the argument in terms of the Islamic belief... according to Islam: Quran is sacred, Hadith is not. (I was responding to why prefer Quran to Hadith in terms of my Islamic beliefs).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #101 - January 19, 2010, 05:58 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 19, 2010, 05:50 PM
    @ virtual
    Who said Mutawatir Hadith is corrupted? i said Hadith is corrupted (as a whole). Besides, Mutawatir Quran is much stronger than Mutawatir Hadith because the chain is much much shorter.

    but the hadith that i gave you
    "if you saw them (jews/Christians/non-believers) in the street, narrow the street for them"
    is both motawarid and sahih, and it is accepted by every hadith schooler i know

    so again asking: how can you befriends of someone that you are supposed to block his way?Huh??


    Quote from: debunker on January 19, 2010, 05:50 PM
    I'm just making the argument in terms of the Islamic belief... according to Islam: Quran is sacred, Hadith is not. (I was responding to why prefer Quran to Hadith in terms of my Islamic beliefs).

    I'm perfectly atheist, so unless its logical valid...
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #102 - January 19, 2010, 06:17 PM
    Quote
    but the hadith that i gave you
    "if you saw them (jews/Christians/non-believers) in the street, narrow the street for them"
    is both motawarid and sahih, and it is accepted by every hadith schooler i know

    so again asking: how can you befriends of someone that you are supposed to block his way??


    First, I need you to double check that. Mutawatir means MANY + DIVERSE narrators at EACH stage of the chain... do you know how many Hadiths, saying the same thing, you should find where this condition applies? A LOT! Did you actually research it yourself or read this claim some where?

    Anyway, if this Hadith is indeed Mutawatir then where is the context? Were they already at some sort of enmity with the Jews and the Christians?

    Quote
    I'm perfectly atheist, so unless its logical valid...


    you keep missing the point... you said: why would you (debunker) prefer the Quran to Hadith? I explained to you many reasons one of them is that my religon tells me Quran is sacred and uncorruptible while Hadith is unsacred plus corruptible. Of course this reason applies to Muslims only.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #103 - January 19, 2010, 08:12 PM
    Hey Guys,

    Regarding the whole 'miracles' thing - I'd just like to offer my opinion. According to quantum mechanics, any physical process is possible. For example whilst typing this I could spontaneously dissolve, end up on Mars, then dissolve and end up on my chair again. Of course I'd have to wait for something close to an eternity for it to happen since the probability of it occuring is so miniscule - but in principle it could happen.

    So for example, when God causes the Red Sea to split - this is actually possible according to quantum mechanics - therefore God does not necessarily need to break the laws of physics for this to miraculously occur - all He has to do is to manipulate the quantum probabilities involved so that it does occur when He wants it to.

    Clever hey.

    Abu Yunus
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #104 - January 19, 2010, 08:25 PM
    I dont understand  Huh?  If you get time I'd be interested in hearing an explanation of this..
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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #105 - January 19, 2010, 08:29 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 19, 2010, 08:12 PM
    Hey Guys,

    Regarding the whole 'miracles' thing - I'd just like to offer my opinion. According to quantum mechanics, any physical process is possible. For example whilst typing this I could spontaneously dissolve, end up on Mars, then dissolve and end up on my chair again. Of course I'd have to wait for something close to an eternity for it to happen since the probability of it occuring is so miniscule - but in principle it could happen.

    So for example, when God causes the Red Sea to split - this is actually possible according to quantum mechanics - therefore God does not necessarily need to break the laws of physics for this to miraculously occur - all He has to do is to manipulate the quantum probabilities involved so that it does occur when He wants it to.

    Clever hey.

    Abu Yunus


    Hello Yunus,

    What about the virgin birth of Jesus, for example?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #106 - January 19, 2010, 08:32 PM
    good question
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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #107 - January 19, 2010, 08:41 PM
    ...or God could just do whatever He wants when He wants  Wink
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #108 - January 19, 2010, 08:43 PM
    IsLame, I will try and find a good video regarding this aspect on quantum mechanics and post it - that way you won't have to take my word for it.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #109 - January 19, 2010, 08:46 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 19, 2010, 08:41 PM
    ...or God could just do whatever He wants when He wants  Wink

    Yeah, sure he can. Provided that he/she/it exists in the first place. Which is one hell of an assumption.

    P.S.
    "A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections - a mere heart of stone."
                            Charles Darwin

    You are a scientist right? Frankly I don't get this. The very basis of the scientific mindset is thinking in an open minded way in which questions of practicality, public debate and empirical testing of hypothesis are central. This totally contrasts with the narrative theistic explanation of the world.

    Let's say that you are a PhD student and you just submitted your thesis which is full of bull. You get a nice big, fat F and complain to the Mentor about it stating that you got your thesis via a revelation in a dream. As a result you get a nice place in an asylum and live happily ever after.

    You would never do anything like that would you? Because its insane, but you quite happily base the very foundation of your identity on something an alleged prophet dreamed up in the Bronze Age? Proof? You are a scientist right?
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #110 - January 19, 2010, 09:44 PM
    lol that only means that the quran could be LESS corrupted if we are taking time as a measure for how more likely a text is to be corrupted (which is not a scientific argument, I mean there is nothing that says its couldn't be corrupted within 10 years)

    two. how do you know quran is Mutawatir? what about the missing quranic verse? what about manuscripts that were found? have you read all the qurans? or all the qurans published from various publishing houses?

    three. so the quran is true because it says its true? Smiley

    -------------

    a question to you how do you know the context of the verse? how would you know what context "there is no compulsion in religion" falls under? how do you know who the quran is referring to when it says he said, they said, say, etc
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #111 - January 19, 2010, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 19, 2010, 08:12 PM
    Hey Guys,

    Regarding the whole 'miracles' thing - I'd just like to offer my opinion. According to quantum mechanics, any physical process is possible.

    Any physical process is possible?  Does this include ones that break scientific laws?
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #112 - January 19, 2010, 10:40 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 19, 2010, 08:12 PM
    Hey Guys,

    Regarding the whole 'miracles' thing - I'd just like to offer my opinion. According to quantum mechanics, any physical process is possible. For example whilst typing this I could spontaneously dissolve, end up on Mars, then dissolve and end up on my chair again. Of course I'd have to wait for something close to an eternity for it to happen since the probability of it occuring is so miniscule - but in principle it could happen.

    So for example, when God causes the Red Sea to split - this is actually possible according to quantum mechanics - therefore God does not necessarily need to break the laws of physics for this to miraculously occur - all He has to do is to manipulate the quantum probabilities involved so that it does occur when He wants it to.

    Clever hey.

    Abu Yunus

    I am not an expert on quantum mechanics/theories, but as far as I know they deal with the very small, aka electrons, protons, neutrons, quarks, etc. and the disappearing-and-reappearing thingy I remember hearing it happening to electrons(or something similar) not to matter on an observable scale.

    I could be wrong or misunderstood what I read, but just thought I might point it out. You can even dismiss my whole post, I am very unsure about it myself.
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #113 - January 19, 2010, 11:14 PM
    Yep, must admit it doesnt sound right to me - more like a method for theists to gain credibility for miracles (such  splitting the moon, parting the red sea, flying donkeys)  in scientific circles
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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #114 - January 19, 2010, 11:21 PM
    Two questions, please answer these if you can, along with my previous post. I will break them up separately.. First one

    Allah is the name of God. El-Lah means The God.

    My question.

    Did Allah choose his name? At one stage he didn't have this name? Or he knew all long he was going to have his name? How is any of this logical? How is he omniscient? If he at one stage didn't know his name and then chose a name, or if he somehow already knew he would have this name?
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #115 - January 19, 2010, 11:23 PM
    Other question. Please refute the man claiming solar system is geocentric and earth is flat using the Quran, please use verses, if possible, use both arabic words/verses and english translation. You can take your time with this one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #116 - January 19, 2010, 11:24 PM
    I don't know Yunus.  This sounds like that flawed argument you presented about the jinns.  Jinns are made of fire 'nar'... not light 'dawl'.  Fire and light are described by different words in Arabic.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #117 - January 20, 2010, 12:45 PM
    Kenan, I really don't see any contradiction between science and religion, and certainly wouldn't think there was a contradiction just because Charles Darwin or any one else said so. Although Einstein wasn't a religous person it appears he did seem to believe that there was an inteligent creator of the universe:

    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
    Albert Einstein

    Just because I am a scientist it doesn't mean my thinking has to be one-dimensional. Theists of course believe that God created the whole universe and everything in it, every quark every electron and so forth. He also set forth all the perfect physical and mathematical laws by which the universe is governed. But physicsts cannot explain where this energy/matter came from and where the brilliantly inteligent and beautiful laws that govern the universe, that we humans stumble around to understand, came from. Therefore theism gives an explanantion for where the laws of science came from whereas non-theism really doesn't. By studying science I am simply studying God's laws.

    Secondly it doesn't really make too much sense to ask a religous person 'how can you beleive in all these miracles' since if someone does beleive in a God that created the entire universe and everything in it, it would be rather easy for that person to belive that God could perform a miracle here and there - this would really be no big deal to Him. Of course I have no 'proof' that God exists - I guess that's why we call it 'faith'.
    To me, if I started to go on like I knew everything about God's laws and started telling God what He could and could not do - then I'd start getting worried - I think if I ever did this I'd be making a fundamental mistake.


    Infidel and islame, you're right quantum mechanics deals with the sub-atomic world - but this also effects our every day world - we and everything are of course all made up of quarks, electrons etc. Quantum mechanics although very weird has been proven to extraordinary mathematical precision. The theory does indeed make any physical process possible in our every day world (in fact the 'disloving and ending up on Mars analogy' I actually stole from Michio Kaku - a leading and very well respected physicist) - this is a widely accepted feature of the theory. Please check out the following video made by some of the most well respected physicists in the world (including Nobel prize winners) for some of the basics, it's about 9 minutes long and you need to watch the whole thing:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unJ2ajHH-94

    Another good video is below. If you find it a bit boring just go to around 4 minutes and watch it till 5 min 10 secs. I really would recommend watching all of it though - it's really good.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qorRcAgL6U&feature=related

    But PLEASE note, I am not saying this is how God performs his miracles (although it is possible), I was just thinking aloud more than anything - I think I just wanted to demonstarte that one-dimensional thinking is not a good thing.

    Ras111, regarding the Jinn. I still think it's possible that they are made from anti-matter - I just have to try and incorporate the somkeless fire into my theory somehow. Btw there's only one carlos tevez.   Cheesy
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #118 - January 20, 2010, 01:00 PM
    Hey blackdawg,

    I of course do not agree with the veiws in the video. However if you yourself do think the Quran says the solar system is geocentric and that the Earth is flat, it would be much more appropriate if you gave your reasons ('or proofs') then I could debate that.

    Abu Yunus
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #119 - January 20, 2010, 01:11 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 20, 2010, 12:45 PM

    Ras111, regarding the Jinn. I still think it's possible that they are made from anti-matter - I just have to try and incorporate the somkeless fire into my theory somehow. Btw there's only one carlos tevez.   Cheesy



    No it quite clearly states they are made of fire... Anti matter does not look like smokeless fire.  For eff's sake, how can you persist in believing nonsense such as jinns?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
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