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Theme Changer

 Topic: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon

 (Read 38864 times)
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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #180 - January 21, 2010, 07:35 PM

    @ras
    nice try, god put that in so that you suspect her
    and she is the one putting the rules so she is fair when she misguides you with scientific facts

  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #181 - January 21, 2010, 07:41 PM

    for abuyunus:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vss1VKN2rf8

    You can thank me later.  grin12

    Very simple and very engaging video from: http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #182 - January 21, 2010, 07:41 PM

    Qualia Soup is like amazing. So clear, so concise.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #183 - January 22, 2010, 10:21 AM

    atheist.pk, I'm well aware of all of qualiasoups vids. althouh the vid does explains some of the basic concepts of evolution theory and some of the misconceptions, I don't think he goes into the evidence supporting evolution too much (although to be fair I don't think this was his intention in the video).

    I will post my thoughts on evolution either tomorrow or on Sunday.

    ps ras, it would be good if you explain why primates having 48 chromosomes and us having 46 chromosomes supports evolutuion theory.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #184 - January 22, 2010, 10:39 AM

    atheist.pk, I'm well aware of all of qualiasoups vids.

    Respect - I really pleased you have taken the time to watch them - how did you come across them?

    Qualiasoup is my favourite youtuber, this one is one my favourite youtube video of all time.  I like it because it rings so true with my life as a child & a teenager.  

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAIpRRZvnJg

    Quote
    I will post my thoughts on evolution either tomorrow or on Sunday.
    ps ras, it would be good if you explain why primates having 48 chromosomes and us having 46 chromosomes supports evolutuion theory.

    They fused together.  If you actually analyse the alleged fused chromosomes, you will actually see they are exactly the same as the original ones that were combined together.  I'll try & dig something out for you if you dont agree with this.

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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #185 - January 22, 2010, 10:45 AM

    This is another good video for those who havent seen it already

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSod6TnUAlg

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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #186 - January 22, 2010, 11:09 AM

    If I am critical of the theory it's beacuse of my scientific veiws and not because of my religous views - I hope you can beleive me (in fact when I was an atheist and used to come across things about evolution that puzelled me I just used to always say to myself 'evolution is an extremely powerful force of nature' although of course this really didn't mean anything). And yes you're right i am by nature very critical when it comes to science - it definitley helps me with my own work.

    Its a shame you dont apply the same rigorous acceptance procedures to your other beliefs.  As you know true application of the scientific method has no desired direction.  However I find it depressing that you would superimpose your own pareidolic views on reality, over & above something that has undergone such rigid analysis and has been proven across the board in many different fields, as well as your own.  

    In fact  it is the bedrock of the pharmaceutical industry (I assume you would not refuse medication that works on the basis of this knowledge, despite your reservations of it) in our understanding of bacteria and the natural world around us.

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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #187 - January 22, 2010, 11:51 AM

    all primates have 48 chromosomes while humans have 46

    now this could had been used as an argument against evolution, how can we evolved from other old primates and still be having less chromosomes than them,

    now if evolution were true and because the loss of 2 chromosomes would result in the immediate death of any organism, the loss of two chromosomes had to be justified by chromosome fusion.

    that is humans had to still have those two chromosomes but they should have fused into one chromosomes.

    after the mapping of the genome map of humans and other primates scientists and after comparing them had discovered that the chromosome no 2 in humans is the merge or fusion of two of the other common primates chromosomes, not only the DNA structure of he chromosome is very close to them, also you can find the DNA material used to divided the chromosome twice in the chromosome 2 while once in each and every other chromosome

    also the DNA material that is normally found at the tips of the chromosome sides and used as a locking mechanism is found four times in the chromosome twice on the tips of the chromosome, and twice inside the chromosome, in the area that the DNA material tells there is a fusion.

    now why did god make all this evidence that our DNA material is near identical to other primates, and that the only difference is a small chromosome fusion mutation??

    how can it be that you have all this evidence DNA wise that our DNA is part of the other of the primates DNA?

  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #188 - January 22, 2010, 11:53 AM

    Hey Islame, I too really really admire the clear and conciseness of qualiasoups videos - I wish I could be as clear and concise about things as he is. But If I'm being really honest I don't think his videos add too much to what most of us (i.e. theists as well as non-theists) already know - he just has a really clear way of explaining certain things. I came across his videos on youtube when someone I subscribed to had a lot of his videos as favourites.

    I think Islame, where you and I differ is that I feel science and faith are two completely different things (something ras111 and I agree on). therefore i can not make a rigorous scientific assessment of my faith - this just wouldn't make sense.



    ''In fact  it is the bedrock of the pharmaceutical industry (I assume you would not refuse medication that works on the basis of this knowledge, despite your reservations of it) in our understanding of bacteria''



    With all due respect, I'm afraid not. I don't know any serious biological scientist who feels evolution is the bedrock of the pharmaceutical industry or our understanding of bacteria. I'd really like to know your exact reasoning of how you reached this conclusion. Although it is true that some drugs target genetic variants, to claim that evolution theory is somehow the foundation behind this is to be honest a bit ridiculous.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #189 - January 22, 2010, 11:55 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk

  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #190 - January 22, 2010, 12:11 PM

    pure.virtual,

    I agree with you that the chromosome 2/telomere finding is the best evidence (by quite some distance in my opinion) for evolution to date. But I still have some reservations about the theory which I promise to discuss at the weekend.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #191 - January 22, 2010, 12:48 PM

    Islame, knowing how bacteria grow, multiply and become resistant has nothing to do with anything we learn from evolution. we know that mutations in genes can cause changes to proteins that are occasionally beneficial to the survival of that organism - this is not something we've learnt from evolution theory beleive it or not but is simple basics of molecular biology.

    And yes I am a cancer researcher so me and my religous buddies want to hamper modern science and medicine??? Or could those of us who are serious about science simply be interested in ascertaining the truth? Do we not have this right?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #192 - January 22, 2010, 01:04 PM

    to adapt something that is ill-logical as opposed to something logical for the cause of logic isn't exactly logical    Roll Eyes

  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #193 - January 22, 2010, 01:20 PM

    Islame, knowing how bacteria grow, multiply and become resistant has nothing to do with anything we learn from evolution. we know that mutations in genes can cause changes to proteins that are occasionally beneficial to the survival of that organism - this is not something we've learnt from evolution theory beleive it or not but is simple basics of molecular biology.

    Sounds like evolution in a nutshell to me.
    Quote
    And yes I am a cancer researcher so me and my religous buddies want to hamper modern science and medicine??? Or could those of us who are serious about science simply be interested in ascertaining the truth? Do we not have this right?

    Thats great,  then I apologise - you obviously keep your religious beliefs separate to this real quest for truth

    Now is there any reason why you chose to ignore this from my last post?

    Quote from: islame
    I accept faith is just faith.  I am not asking you to make a scientific assessment of your faith.  I am asking you to make one based on the scientific method & free enquiry. 

    Now if you were to investigate using there 2 critieria alone given the knowledge you currently have in-hand, then do you accept your findings at the very least would be inconclusive i.e. agnostic?


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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #194 - January 22, 2010, 02:05 PM

    ''Sounds like evolution in a nutshell to me.''

    well it might sound like it to you, but the fact is evolution incorporates  the aspects of basic molecular biology you describe - these are not things we learn from evolution theory

    Islame I'd prefer it if you left the whole faith issue alone - honestly we are just gonna keep going round in circles.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #195 - January 22, 2010, 02:22 PM

    Islame I'd prefer it if you left the whole faith issue alone

    Is there a difference between faith & pareidolia?
     
    starts from 0:26
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l8ByKUQMf4

    .honestly we are just gonna keep going round in circles.


    Theres no need to go round in circles provided you answered the question honestly. Its only a yes/no question after all, and I dont think the question breaks any forum rules Wink

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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #196 - January 22, 2010, 02:54 PM

    yes I'm crazy just like the people in the video - can we please move on?  Afro

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #197 - January 22, 2010, 03:16 PM

    I didnt say they were crazy, just making the claim that they suffer from pareidolia and asking if you could say faith was akin to the same phenomenon?  Please let me know..

    and also please dont ignore my previous question.  Its poor forum netiquette.

    By the way, plese feel free to ask me any questions about my stance too. 

    Here it is:

    Quote from: Islame
    I accept faith is just faith.  I am not asking you to make a scientific assessment of your faith.  I am asking you to make one based on the scientific method & free enquiry. 

    Now if you were to investigate using there 2 critieria alone given the knowledge you currently have in-hand, then do you accept your findings at the very least would be inconclusive i.e. agnostic?



    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #198 - January 23, 2010, 06:12 PM

    Hey everyone

    Sorry for not replying to your evolution questions during the week but I felt my answer would require a more lengthy discussion.

    I should start of by saying that I'm very open to the fact that evolution may be correct. I feel it should be taught in classrooms and I strongly feel that any type of creationist/intelligent design argument has no place in the science lesson. At the same time I feel that if students want to voluntarily learn about creationism/intelligent design in separate classes they should be allowed to without any complaint from anyone and without being stigmatized. However the one suggestion I would make when evolution is taught in science lessons is that students are taught aspects of the theory that remain unexplained along with the current problems of the theory rather than ignoring them and pretending they don't exist. This indeed may be beneficial to the theory since it?s through critical analysis that scientific problems are often solved - it would not be a bad idea from any point of view to get young budding scientists interested in these topics.

    I have come across comments that seem to label people who still hold reservations about evolution as 'wackjobs' and comparison to Zakir Naik have also been made. Whilst these are quite amusing I know (or hope at least) that most of you are actually not this narrow minded. However given these comparisons have been made, although quite embarrassing I feel it might be good to mention that I have a PhD in cell and molecular biology and have been a postdoctoral researcher at Cambridge University for 5 years - during this time I have published several research articles in leading scientific journals (but still have managed to remain quite a cool dude  cool2).

    Ok, my main problem with evolution theory is that I feel most cellular pathways are way too complex to have evolved by a process which relies on one beneficial mutation at a time. The most basic example I'll give is the cellular pathway I worked on for my PhD and the first two years of my postdoc career - the Fanconi Anaemia pathway. So far 13 genes in the pathway are known to exist - patients with mutations in any of these genes are predisposed to cancer and congenital abnormalities and often do not make it past their teens. The proteins encoded by these genes are involved in DNA repair processes which are critical for our survival. Eight of these proteins form a stable core protein complex which is critical for DNA repair, however when just any one of these proteins is missing or is non-functional due to mutation the whole protein complex loses it's activity and the cell loses this critical DNA repair capability. But what's very puzzling is that six out of the eight members of this critical protein complex suddenly appear together in lower vertebrates such as zebrafish but are not present in closely related non-vertebrates (such as the urochordates). This was entirely unexpected in the field. Once when I was having a discussion with one of my professors regarding the pathway he commented that ''it's as if these 6 proteins came down together from outer space' (he accepts evolution as fact but was just speaking figuratively). Since every member of the complex appeared to be critical for DNA repair activity in lower vertebrates such as zebrafish it did not make sense at all that the six proteins would suddenly appear together apparently 'from out of nowhere' since none of these proteins are found in closely related non-vertebrates. Although I had accepted evolution prior to this point (i.e. even when I was a theist), it was at this point I started having initial concerns about the theory.

    Throughout my career the more cellular pathways I came across the more I realized that one mutation at a time can not account for the even more intricate complexity for most critical  pathways (these include pathways that regulate development, gene expression, DNA repair, DNA replication, mitosis, cytokinesis - indeed the list goes on and on) . To build most of these pathways the numerous proteins involved in the pathways would need to appear simultaneously to allow the pathway to work - one beneficial mutation at a time would just be ineffective in building the pathway and thus simultaneous favorable mutations would be needed. For example there would have to be multiple different mutations that would create each of the components of the pathway, and then multiple mutations that would allow these components to be put together for the pathway to work. But I know that this would be mathematically untenable and would spell doom for evolution theory as a whole. Of course 'miniscule scale' evolutionary processes do occur in nature - this is an undisputable fact i.e. bacteria and viruses gaining resistance to drugs through beneficial mutation. But the actual building of complex cellular pathways is a completely different ball game - I cannot stress this point enough. As a scientist this left me in quite a dilemma. All my colleagues are certain that evolution is correct - but does this mean I should ignore my own scientific judgment? I will expand more on these points at the end of this reply.

    At this point I still knew that there was masses of evidence in the fossil record and in DNA that supported evolution theory as a whole. But the creationists would always argue that God created organisms in stages and that similarities in DNA for example could just easily indeed indicate common design i.e. if two organisms are very similar of course God would create them with a similar genetic make up. In my gut I knew this was true and there was no way round it. I knew there were many big gaps in the fossil record but still knew that there were many transitional fossils that existed. However I was also aware that there were not near as many transitional fossils as one would have hoped for and even then the history of transitional fossil had been marred by controversy ranging from hoaxes to massive blunders. Although I knew I shouldn't treat all transitional fossil finds with skepticism just because of these unfortunate cases it still did little to install me with confidence. Even more recently I'm sure a lot of you are aware of the Darwinius masillae(Ida) incident. When this fossil was found last year it was claimed to be the missing link between modern higher primates and more distant species - their was a massive hoo-haa about it and numerous articles were written  and numerous documentaries were made (including a special BBC documentary featuring Richard Attenborough) all hailing it to be a massive step in confirming evolution. More recently a fossil find has shown that the Ida fossil is likely no such missing link at all and that it belongs more closely to lemurs than to monkeys, apes or us. This whole episode and others like it are embarrassing and only make evolutionists seem desperate. I know if I ran my science projects like this I'd be kicked out of a job or at the very least become a laughing stock amongst my peers.

    The gold standard of any scientific theory should be that it can make testable predictions which are later proven correct. Einstein's theory of gravity (general relativity) spectacularly predicted the exact extent to which starlight would be bent by gravitational fields in both our own solar system as well as binary pulsars outside our solar system. Einstein's theory of special relativity predicts how time behaves depending on ones motion - for example to test this prediction two atomic clocks were synchronized one was left on earth and the other sent on a long journey around the world in a speedy jet. When the jet landed back on earth and the two clocks were compared it was found their times differed by exactly the amount of time that special theory said they should. This is great wonderful stuff, in fact it's mind blowing. What prediction has evolution ever made that confirm the fundamentals of the theory in such a manner? Sure it's made a few predictions here and there - but none of these go a long way to actually prove the theory. For example superstring theory predicts the existence of supersymmetric particles (or sparticles). We might be able to detect these during particle accelerator experiments in the brand new Large Hadron Collider in Geneva. However even though no-one has seen these sparticles before, string theorists themselves accept that even if they do observe these new particles predicted by the theory in these experiments, although it would provide some support for the theory, it would not prove the theory since the fundamental concepts of the theory have not been tested. Unless we find a way to predict the way in which complex cellular pathways are built by evolution and find a way to confirm these predictions, critics like myself will always have reservations about the theory.

    The major prediction that evolution has probably made to date is probably the existence of a species that is an intermediate form between fish and amphibians i.e. the tiktaalik fossil - but again creationists have argued that this is simply another example of God creating organisms in stages. Another good one (that I find most impressive) was the prediction that human chromosome 2 was formed by fusion of two separate chromosomes found in apes. Problems with the findings have however been discussed in detail by some evolutionary scientists such as Will Brooks. He argues that a problem with the hypothesis of a chromosomal fusion in human ancestry lies in the complete absence of humans with 48 chromosomes. If it were true that a chromosomal split occurred in human evolution, then two distinct human groups would have been generated: one containing 48 chromosomes which were not altered by any genetic change, and a second containing 46 chromosomes including the fusion of chromosome 2. The problem is, however, that no humans have 48 chromosomes. The only possible historical explanation is that an entire population of 48-chromosome humans became extinct and was replaced by a 46-chromosome human race. For this scenario to have occurred, a very strong positive selection must have favored the diploid number of 46 over that of 48. Unfortunately for evolutionists, the paradox is that the same selection would be expected for the other apes as well. Apes, however, maintained a chromosome number of 48. Because of the known problems of infertility that go along with large genomic rearrangements, natural selection would actually operate against this proposed chromosomal fusion. The fitness for survival for such individuals would be extremely low. Taken together, the evidence supporting common ancestry between humans and chimpanzees via chromosome 2 fusion is very questionable.

    Another major concern that I have is that evolution could not have occurred without life first appearing on earth. In this sense the question of abiogenesis is very relevant (don't let anyone ever try and tell you otherwise - evolutionists sometimes try to insist abiogenesis bears no impact on their own theory). In my view there is nothing close to a credible theory at the moment explaining how life first came about on earth. Other major issues also remain unexplained i.e. how consciousness evolved, where our morality comes from, why we sleep etc. I will just say that people who accept the current theories put forward are very easily pleased.

    I mentioned early on in this very long reply (sorry!) that 95% of my colleagues accept evolution whereas I have sincere reservations in my gut as a scientist. This is somewhat of a problem with me as I would much rather be able to accept evolution and get on happily with my life. Am I stupid enough to think I am smarter than the rest of my colleagues and mentors? No. My reasoning is the following. Most scientists are non-theists. The reason for them being non-theists is not because of evolution (i.e. how many of you concluded Islam was false primarily because of evolution theory?). However without evolution theory, non-theism doesn't have a leg to stand on if we're being honest. I therefore understand why non-theists are so certain the theory is correct and so defensive of the theory and in some cases even get upset when someone questions the theory. This unfortunately leads to a stigmatization of those who criticize the theory even if the intention is to gain a better understanding and more proof for the theory. We all know when a theory of science becomes popular the actual evidence for it can be exaggerated and the problems unduly ignored. I sincerely feel this is the case for evolution theory and my criticisms are not based on my religious beliefs. Indeed evolution is being taught more and more to children in Islamic countries and I would certainly encourage my children to learn about the theory. Although there are a lot of staunch creationists out there, there are also a lot of Muslim scientists who feel there is no contradiction between the Quran and evolution. For an interesting article that was published in the premier journal Science see the article below:

    https://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/reprint/322/5908/1637.pdf

    Once again my apologies for this very long post (although tbh you guys asked for it!!)

    Abu Yunus

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #199 - January 23, 2010, 06:46 PM

    Hiya Abu Yunus Smiley

    You are at Cambridge right? Have you ever had the chance to chat with Abdul Hakim Murad (Timothy Winter)? I'd be interested to know your thoughts on his views? (I should mention I know him and have a great deal of respect for him. I am also aware that he has become the darling of many modern moderate British Muslims.)
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #200 - January 23, 2010, 07:30 PM

    Hey Hassan,

    No I've never heard of him - I'm a bit socially retarded that way. I just googled his name and was led to a site for a millitant jihadist of the same name - lol!!! I will let you know what I think about the views of our much more frendlier Abdul if I can find some good articles.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #201 - January 23, 2010, 07:40 PM

    He is lecturer in Islamic Studies at Cambridge. Below is the wikipedia bio on him and a bit from masud.co.uk (a fairly moderate Islamic site) with some of his articles:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Winter

    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/default.htm
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #202 - January 23, 2010, 07:48 PM

    Iblis:
    ''In fact considering teh chaos of cause and effect that dominates the universe, I think its more reasonable to believe in the polytheistic notions of multiples gods presiding over various forces of nature and human conduct.''

    Abuk
    ''Abu Yunus does the opposite also apply? Does chaos and the asymmetrical nature of existence then point to multiple Gods/absence of God/s?''



    I don't believe one should believe in one God as supposed to multiple God's or vice versa based on scientific evidence - I feel that belief in the one true God comes from within ones self and simply by pondering nature around us.

    However since I find the questions quite interesting I will attempt to answer.

    Chaos theory and indeed quantum mechanics (which has unpredictability at its heart) make many things unpredictable in nature. However this unpredictability does not point toward an asymmetric universe. Indeed all leading theoretical physicists believe that symmetry plays a fundamental role in the universe. For those interested I would very highly recommend chapter 8 of Brian Greene's bestselling book 'The Fabric of the Cosmos' (Brian Greene is one of the worlds leading and most respected theoretical physicists) which describes the fundamental importance of symmetry throughout the universe. I will try and summarize some of the points he makes.

    If you were to ask theoretical physicists to summarize the most important finding in modern science they would reply ''that the world is made of atoms''. This is understandable since the reasons why stars shine to the reasons why you can read the words on the screen right now relies on the properties and interaction of atoms. If you were to ask them to summarize a second finding they would say ''the fact that symmetry underlies the laws of the universe''. In fact many leading physicists have commented that the history of the universe is, to a large extent, the history of symmetry and insist that the ''age and evolution of the universe as a whole rely sensitively on aspects of symmetry''.

    Greene summarizes quite beautifully these aspects in his book:
    ''Considerations of symmetry have clearly been indispensable in the development of modern cosmological theory. The meaning of time, it's application to the universe as a whole, the overall shape of space, and even the underlying framework of general relativity, all rest on foundations of symmetry''

    Another interesting point is that the laws of physics appear to be the same on the earth as they are on the moon, or the Andromeda galaxy. Theoretical physicists realize that the laws of physics didn't have to operate this way. In fact, we don't know with absolute certainty that the laws that work here will work in far-flung corners of the cosmos. But we do know that should the laws somehow change way out there, it must be way out there, because ever more precise astronomical observations have provided ever more convincing evidence that the laws are uniform throughout the universe, at least the universe we can see.  

    In addition many theoretical physicists strongly believe that all the laws of physics  should be able to be described within one single theoretical framework i.e. 'a theory of everything'. Einstein made an attempt at this huge feat but failed - many feel owing to his refusal to accept quantum mechanics. However at present, physicists feel that if they can merge the theories of quantum mechanics and general relativity we should have one single theory that can describe all the laws of the universe. String/M-theory and quantum loop gravity are two potential such frameworks for a 'theory of everything'. Although we are very far from achieving this goal many physicists 'feel' such a beautiful theory exists and one day might be proven.

    Abu Yunus

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #203 - January 23, 2010, 07:52 PM

    cheers Hassan, I will definitely take a look.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #204 - January 23, 2010, 07:54 PM

    Unfortunately for evolutionists, the paradox is that the same selection would be expected for the other apes as well. Apes, however, maintained a chromosome number of 48. Because of the known problems of infertility that go along with large genomic rearrangements, natural selection would actually operate against this proposed chromosomal fusion. The fitness for survival for such individuals would be extremely low. Taken together, the evidence supporting common ancestry between humans and chimpanzees via chromosome 2 fusion is very questionable.




    Why?  Are all ape populations subject to the same environmental conditions?  Infertility only occurs if an individual with 48 chromosomes mates with one of 46 if I'm not mistaken.  By the way, I will look deeper into the Fanconi pathway issue later. 


    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #205 - January 23, 2010, 08:07 PM

    ras111, but why would having 48 chromosomes be apparently so lethal in humans when apes with the same genetic make up live perfectly happily? If humans having 48 chromosomes was not lethal why did they all seem to dissapear? Indeed we don't know of any humans who have the 48 chromosomes that apes have.


    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #206 - January 23, 2010, 08:17 PM

    ras111, but why would having 48 chromosomes be apparently so lethal in humans when apes with the same genetic make up live perfectly happily? If humans having 48 chromosomes was not lethal why did they all seem to dissapear? Indeed we don't know of any humans who have the 48 chromosomes that apes have.


    Perhaps the 46 chromosome mutation is from where our human species stemmed from?  There are many reasons why the 48 chromosome species could have been wiped out, but then again it may still be alive even today as a species of ape.  You did not answer my question.  Why must we necessarily see this mutation in other ape populations as well?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #207 - January 23, 2010, 08:28 PM

    Perhaps it could have to do with a mutation that occurred during meiosis.  Chromosome fusion is not that uncommon as a process either.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #208 - January 23, 2010, 08:37 PM

    ''You did not answer my question.  Why must we necessarily see this mutation in other ape populations as well?''

    What mutation (I'm not saying we should see apes with 46 chromosomes)? My point is all apes live perfectly happily with 48 chromosomes. If humans evolved from apes why do we not see any humans with 48 chromosomes?

    ''There are many reasons why the 48 chromosome species could have been wiped out''

    Such as?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #209 - January 23, 2010, 08:41 PM

    @AbuYunus

    A sincere question. Since you're a Quran only Muslim, do you spend as much time and energy debating your fellow Muslim who believes and applies the hadiths? After all, surely we apostates are not the problem for your 'true' version of Islam, it's surely the hundreds of millions of sunni and shia muslims who follow a misguided reliance on the sahih hadiths? Do you challenge them regularly and on Muslim forums to drop usage of the hadiths?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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