Comments on Hassan V debunker

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #30 - January 20, 2010, 11:32 PM

Quote
It's like us discussing the purpose of the fairies at the back of my garden.

They're for painting the petals of the flowers, aren't they?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #31 - January 20, 2010, 11:34 PM

Not sure Billy shall we start a debate on that topic?

Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #32 - January 20, 2010, 11:35 PM

Mine are there to keep the gnomes out.
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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #33 - January 20, 2010, 11:36 PM

I'm not going to debate with you on this issue pakman - if you try and deny that fairies paint flower petals I'm sending you death threats.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #34 - January 20, 2010, 11:37 PM

Quote from: abuk on January 20, 2010, 11:25 PM
Salams Debunker

I find your honesty and open nature both refreshing and a comfort. Is it possible that the sincere nature in which you enquired and investigated your way through the OT, could be the same journey that many of us ex-Muslims took through the Quran?

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #35 - January 20, 2010, 11:39 PM

@ BD

I'm not aware that I used God of the gaps argument... but perhaps I didn't express myself very well.. my argument is you don't have to insist on understanding everything because we really aren't able to understand everything. My argument is: just because we don't have answers to everything then you can't claim God didn't communicate with us on that basis. God is beyond being described by seas and seas of words... what I'm saying is atheists can't use No-God of the gaps argument (the gaps here being spiritual things we don't know anything about like why were created, etc).

As for God, He was always a truth for me.. it's not a feeling.. anyway, you might want to check these posts:

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8240.msg206782#msg206782
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8240.msg206968#msg206968
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8240.msg207073#msg207073

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Two, which is my biggest issue, the Quran is without fault. It astounds me how you can come to this conclusion, if you read it with a detached mind.

Again, I don't know what made you reach this conclusion. I was not arguing from the premise that the Quran is faultless... I was using verses from the Quran to make my point as to what I actually believe the Quran is saying (since I'm discussing with Hassan Hell according to Quran).

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Are you really telling me I'm interpreting things wrong? I'm reading it as it is. The lower skies is decked with stars. It doesn't say universe, it uses sky. Samawat.

The Quran says the lowest sky is decked with stars.. (verse ?) Which means there are 6 other heavens beyond our senses (in all likelihood these aren't even made of the same fabrics of our known universe).

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And comets are missiles to keep the Jinn away from listening to God?

Yeah, but the Quran did say that before Islam shooting stars had NOTHING to do with Jinns, only with the advent of Islam, Jinns were forbidden. Of course, the question as to how shooting stars can interact with supernatural beings is a different issue, since I know nothing about supernatural beings.

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I mean seriously? Comets can seem to have a life of their own, again, if you see it with those eyes.

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The problem also is the heavy reliance on Judaism and Christianity.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Quote
Not to mention that Allah seems to belong with the other Ancient Gods of that region.

Allah was the word for capital-G God even for Christian/Jewish Arabs back then. (Hassan could correct me if I were wrong.)

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #36 - January 20, 2010, 11:42 PM

Quote from: abuk on January 20, 2010, 11:25 PM
Salams Debunker

I find your honesty and open nature both refreshing and a comfort. Is it possible that the sincere nature in which you enquired and investigated your way through the OT, could be the same journey that many of us ex-Muslims took through the Quran?

Before reading the OT, I read the Quran and rejected it too, so I'm not sure what you mean.

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #37 - January 20, 2010, 11:50 PM

Quote from: abuk on January 20, 2010, 11:30 PM
You make a very valid point, and it is interesting that the pure motive of the Prophet lead you back into Islam. Did you consider that there may have been other motives the Prophet may have had for not slandering the previous Prophets?

The Quran didn't only NOT slander them.. it gave contradictory accounts to stories in the Bible... why go through all the pain? If were an imposter, I would simply say I am way better than them all.

Examples:

Bible: Solomn ended up worshipping idols (some Christians consider him a prophet some don't).
Quran: Solomon was no disbeliever.

Bible: Aaron built the golden calf.
Quran: Aaron opposed building the calf.

Bible: Moses was punished by God for not giving Him the credit after he struck the ground and 12 streams of water errupted.
Quran: Moses was very grateful to God after the 12 steams of water incident.

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #38 - January 20, 2010, 11:52 PM

At the time of denouncing the Quran and Allah of the quran, as you did as a deist, would you say you were being arrogant or just being a sincere questioner?

For arguments sake, lets say you passed away in some unfortunate sexual accident, then do you think you honestly deserved to roast in hell for questioning the Holy Quran, Allah & the prophet as his messenger?

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #39 - January 20, 2010, 11:53 PM

Quote
lets say you passed away in some unfortunate sexual accident

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #40 - January 20, 2010, 11:53 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 20, 2010, 11:50 PM
The Quran didn't only NOT slander them.. it gave contradictory accounts to stories in the Bible... why go through all the pain? If were an imposter, I would simply say I am way better than them all.

Examples:

Bible: Solomn ended up worshipping idols (some Christians consider him a prophet some don't).
Quran: Solomon was no disbeliever.

Bible: Aaron built the golden calf.
Quran: Aaron opposed building the calf.

Bible: Moses was punished by God for not giving Him the credit after he struck the ground and 12 streams of water errupted.
Quran: Moses was very grateful to God after the 12 steams of water incident.

chinese whispers?

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #41 - January 20, 2010, 11:55 PM

Quote from: pakman on January 20, 2010, 11:29 PM
Debunker - your entire post is premised on a number of assumptions and I find the whole thing very unconvincing. It does however also illustrate the futility of such discussions since so much is subjective. Ultimately, you can't prove any of it so there is no reason fir me to believe any of it or even take it seriously. It's like us discussing the purpose of the fairies at the back of my garden.

Again, I was discussing with Hassan Hell according to the Quran, since his objection is Hell according to the Quran.

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #42 - January 20, 2010, 11:59 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 20, 2010, 11:52 PM
At the time of denouncing the Quran and Allah of the quran, as you did as a deist, would you say you were being arrogant or just being a sincere questioner?

For arguments sake, lets say you passed away in some unfortunate sexual accident, then do you think you honestly deserved to roast in hell for questioning the Holy Quran, Allah & the prophet as his messenger?

What have I been saying all along? I was a Deist.. I believed 100% in God and prayed to Him in need and I praised Him when I was happy.. I was still the slave of the Creator God... Ijust didn't believe the Quran was His book. Again, you guys keep ignoring the verse I shown you (3:65).

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #43 - January 21, 2010, 12:00 AM

You weren't a deist then, deists don't believe in a personal God who answers prayers.

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #44 - January 21, 2010, 12:02 AM

3:65 according to Pickthall says this:

O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him ? Have ye then no sense ?

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #45 - January 21, 2010, 12:02 AM

Quote from: IsLame on January 20, 2010, 11:53 PM
chinese whispers?

Again, I keep forgetting that you guys are here to have fun.

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #46 - January 21, 2010, 12:05 AM

Quote from: IsLame on January 21, 2010, 12:02 AM
3:65 according to Pickthall says this:

O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him ? Have ye then no sense ?

003.064
YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).
PICKTHAL: Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him).
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah; but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #47 - January 21, 2010, 12:06 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 20, 2010, 11:50 PM
The Quran didn't only NOT slander them.. it gave contradictory accounts to stories in the Bible... why go through all the pain? If were an imposter, I would simply say I am way better than them all.

Examples:

Bible: Solomn ended up worshipping idols (some Christians consider him a prophet some don't).
Quran: Solomon was no disbeliever.

Bible: Aaron built the golden calf.
Quran: Aaron opposed building the calf.

Bible: Moses was punished by God for not giving Him the credit after he struck the ground and 12 streams of water errupted.
Quran: Moses was very grateful to God after the 12 steams of water incident.

Without meaning to cast aspersions on the Prophet there could be other reasons why he did not slander previous Prophets. Is it possible that the whole nature and status of prophethood needed to be strengthened? If I have just announced that I am a Prophet; divinely inspired, I would want to make sure that prophets are respected to the full. Likewise, I really wouldn?t want my followers to eventually turn against me and replicate what happened to previous incumbents??.
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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #48 - January 21, 2010, 12:08 AM

@ Islame

What do you mean by unfortunate sexual accident? And why was billy laughing? Were you both close to dying in sexual accidents before?

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #49 - January 21, 2010, 12:10 AM

debunker, I was just laughing because it was so bizarre and funny - my apologies if you were offended.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #50 - January 21, 2010, 12:14 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 21, 2010, 12:08 AM
@ Islame

What do you mean by unfortunate sexual accident? And why was billy laughing? Were you both close to dying in sexual accidents before?

I was trying to lighten the tone as I did not want you to take the subject of your death to seriously. My bad - my sensitive side. Perhaps I should have said your death by slowly being sliced through a butchers electric meat carver?

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #51 - January 21, 2010, 12:20 AM

Quote from: abuk on January 21, 2010, 12:06 AM
Without meaning to cast aspersions on the Prophet there could be other reasons why he did not slander previous Prophets. Is it possible that the whole nature and status of prophethood needed to be strengthened? If I have just announced that I am a Prophet; divinely inspired, I would want to make sure that prophets are respected to the full. Likewise, I really wouldn?t want my followers to eventually turn against me and replicate what happened to previous incumbents??.

Well tell that (the bolded part) to 2 Billion Christians... meaning? Prophets are still followed regardless... Besides, if he read these slanders in these scriptures and so that these prophets were still followed, then he shouldn't suspect why his own people wouldn't follow him to while putting him in higher regard.

Anyway, forget about the slandering issue. Why did he invent a monotheistic religion threatening the prosperty of Quraish, which led to them harassing him and his followers for 10 years? Why didn't he invent a polytheistic religion that promoted him as a leader... why choose the strictest form of monotheism which was the strongest antagonist to polytheism? Why ALL the troubles if really all he wanted was power?

And what about the *miracle* that the city of Yathrib chose to take him and his followers who were outcasts from a powerful city like Mecca? And make him their leader too?

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #52 - January 21, 2010, 12:23 AM

Quote from: IsLame on January 21, 2010, 12:14 AM
I was trying to lighten the tone as I did not want you to take the subject of your death to seriously. My bad - my sensitive side. Perhaps I should have said your death by slowly being sliced through a butchers electric meat carver?

There! That's a lot nicer.

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #53 - January 21, 2010, 12:23 AM

Quote from: billy on January 21, 2010, 12:10 AM
debunker, I was just laughing because it was so bizarre and funny - my apologies if you were offended.

Oh Ok, and no apologies needed

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #54 - January 21, 2010, 12:24 AM

Quote from: abuk on January 21, 2010, 12:06 AM
Without meaning to cast aspersions on the Prophet there could be other reasons why he did not slander previous Prophets. Is it possible that the whole nature and status of prophethood needed to be strengthened? If I have just announced that I am a Prophet; divinely inspired, I would want to make sure that prophets are respected to the full. Likewise, I really wouldn?t want my followers to eventually turn against me and replicate what happened to previous incumbents??.

Sort of like Baha u llah
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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #55 - January 21, 2010, 12:30 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 21, 2010, 12:20 AM
Why did he invent a monotheistic religion threatening the prosperty of Quraish, which led to them harassing him and his followers for 10 years? Why didn't he invent a polytheistic religion that promoted him as a leader... why choose the strictest form of monotheism which was the strongest antagonist to polytheism? Why ALL the troubles if really all he wanted was power?

And what about the *miracle* that the city of Yathrib chose to take him and his followers who were outcasts from a powerful city like Mecca? And make him their leader too?

Have you got a quranic source for this, or is this from the hadith you were discounting from our arguemnts earlier?

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #56 - January 21, 2010, 12:33 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 21, 2010, 12:20 AM
Well tell that (the bolded part) to 2 Billion Christians... meaning? Prophets are still followed regardless... Besides, if he read these slanders in these scriptures and so that these prophets were still followed, then he shouldn't suspect why his own people wouldn't follow him to while putting him in higher regard.

Anyway, forget about the slandering issue. Why did he invent a monotheistic religion threatening the prosperty of Quraish, which led to them harassing him and his followers for 10 years? Why didn't he invent a polytheistic religion that promoted him as a leader... why choose the strictest form of monotheism which was the strongest antagonist to polytheism? Why ALL the troubles if really all he wanted was power?

And what about the *miracle* that the city of Yathrib chose to take him and his followers who were outcasts from a powerful city like Mecca? And make him their leader too?

Question why would they harass him? They had a multitude of different beliefs, his wouldn't have been any different than the monotheism of Judaism.
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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #57 - January 21, 2010, 12:36 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 20, 2010, 11:50 PM
The Quran didn't only NOT slander them.. it gave contradictory accounts to stories in the Bible... why go through all the pain? If were an imposter, I would simply say I am way better than them all.

Examples:

Bible: Solomn ended up worshipping idols (some Christians consider him a prophet some don't).
Quran: Solomon was no disbeliever.

Bible: Aaron built the golden calf.
Quran: Aaron opposed building the calf.

Bible: Moses was punished by God for not giving Him the credit after he struck the ground and 12 streams of water errupted.
Quran: Moses was very grateful to God after the 12 steams of water incident.

The Quran also said that Alexander the Great worshipped the god of Muhammad as well, if we come to that. It makes sense when Muhammad was proclaiming himself as the seal of the prophets and the end of the line. He was trying to get legitmacy.

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #58 - January 21, 2010, 12:42 AM

@ Islame

First off, I clearly explained my position on Hadith from the very beginning and re-explained my position again to the member "virtual"..

Anyway, here's the verse: 8:63 .. and besides, the Quran is clear about the Meccans kicking the Muslims out and their re-establishing themselves in Medina.

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Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
Reply #59 - January 21, 2010, 12:43 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on January 21, 2010, 12:33 AM
Question why would they harass him? They had a multitude of different beliefs, his wouldn't have been any different than the monotheism of Judaism.

I'm not sure there were Jews in Mecca.. but anyway, monotheistic Arabs were very few and kept to themselves (they didn't preach).

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