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Theme Changer

 Topic: Is it getting better with women's rights?

 (Read 11625 times)
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  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #30 - January 24, 2010, 04:12 AM

    Speaking of Tariq Ramadan:

    Ramadan's visa ban lifted

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jan/23/tariq-ramadan-clinton-visa
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #31 - January 24, 2010, 11:05 AM

    I guess there's a serious problem with criticising Islam in the UK (or even in the whole Europe). It's hard not to be called a racist, an intolerant and prejudiced islamophobe, etc. You can bash Christianity and every other religion you want, but never Islam. This all makes it hard to discuss things, as I don't want to be labelled as above. I guess it's good to show certain Muslims that their practices are criticised not only from the external perspective, but also from the internal one. I always invite my Muslim friends to participate in women's rights/human rights initiatives and they sometimes agree, although I'm not sure what they *really* think.
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #32 - January 24, 2010, 11:07 AM

    As to Ramadan, I knew it was too good to be real. Still, I hope some Muslims will take his 'moderation talk' seriously and follow this way.
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #33 - January 24, 2010, 01:46 PM

    Given this all and given the fact that Islam is the world's fastest growing religion, is it possible that in a couple of centuries Islam will take over (together with Sharia and all its barbaric prescriptions)? That gives me goosebumps.


    I've been developing some ideas for a futuristic dystopic novel or series of short stories based around this idea.  Don't think it would ever get published though.   Cry

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #34 - January 24, 2010, 02:00 PM

    IMO, Islam will eventually have it's renaissance like Judaism and Christianity before it.  If you look at the Old Testament the punishments for such things as talking back to your parents, extramarital sex, etc are just as harsh as those in the Shari'a but do any modern day Jews or Christians actually follow these proscriptions?  NO!

    During Medieval times the Bible was written and read only in Latin and only the ruling clergy could read and understand the text.  It was not for the masses to know exactly what God said in His sacred texts, much like the Qu'ran and Muslims today who outside of Arabia, do not understand Arabic yet recite the text like parrots.  parrot

    I think eventually Islam will go through a reformation period like Judaism and Christianity, it will have to in order to survive in the modern age.  We are at a period where we are facing much opposition to this reformation by the ruling elite of the Ummah and that is why it will take time for Islam to finally have it's renaissance.  I think it will eventually happen but probably not until our grand or great-grand-children's time when the stodgy old-timers of our generation have all died out.

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #35 - January 24, 2010, 03:00 PM

    I've been developing some ideas for a futuristic dystopic novel or series of short stories based around this idea.  Don't think it would ever get published though.   Cry


    Because publishers would be too cowardly? They might well be, but I would love to read a novel like that.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #36 - January 24, 2010, 03:03 PM


    I don't think Tariq Ramadan is a Muslim reformer. I think he's more stealthy in his prescriptions regarding sharia and Islam. He utilises the rhetoric of the Left, but I don't believe he is actually a progressive, and I believe that he thinks European society should accomodate itself to Islam rather than the other way.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #37 - January 24, 2010, 03:10 PM

    I guess there's a serious problem with criticising Islam in the UK (or even in the whole Europe). It's hard not to be called a racist, an intolerant and prejudiced islamophobe, etc. You can bash Christianity and every other religion you want, but never Islam. This all makes it hard to discuss things, as I don't want to be labelled as above. I guess it's good to show certain Muslims that their practices are criticised not only from the external perspective, but also from the internal one. I always invite my Muslim friends to participate in women's rights/human rights initiatives and they sometimes agree, although I'm not sure what they *really* think.


    That is a problem and one that everyone should work to overcome. 'Islamophobia' has been used as a stick to beat anyone who confronts Islamist ideology and some of the more backward practises of Islam - and I really believe one of the reasons we are in the situation we are in now regarding extremism in the UK is because we did not confront this ideology earlier, for fear of being beaten with the Islamophobia stick. It is also used as a knife with which to stab dissenting Muslims and ex-Muslims alongside the charge of being 'Uncle Tom Apostate' and 'Neo-Con sell out' and so on.

    However, I really do believe this is changing, and a space is opening up for these discussions to be had without that lumpen charge being made. In truth, those who throw the word and accusation around so easily have lost their credibility. When the reality is that there is much that is wrong with Islam and its various ideologies as being practised in Britain, and you persist in slandering anyone who takes issue with these ideologies and practises, you just end up looking stupid. Put it this way, before 7/7, organisations like the MCB would claim that warnings about the dangers of Islamic extremism were scaremongering rooted in Islamophobia - after the London suicide bombings, it was they who ended up on the wrong side of the debate, by a million miles.

    So, I really do believe that things have changed, and are continuing to change in that regard.
     

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #38 - January 24, 2010, 03:49 PM

    @Fiolek

    I forgot to mention, there are still honor killings happening in the West. And forced arranged marriages. Somebody might but this is not Islam, then how come the are so many muslims that still do it*? If a muslim girl from a devout family said she want's to live with her bf who is not a muslim, would they let her? If a guy wanted to do, would they let him? How far would they go in stopping the muslim girl? How far for the muslim boy?


    *Bit of a straw man I know. I wish I had statistics for this. Or academic research on the subject. I'm not satisfied with the answer that I get from apologists. There might be Arab Christians and Arabs of other religions that have this problem, but I'm not sure to what extent, and for what reason, is it also because of religion? That the daughter is marrying a guy with the wrong religion?

    Then that doesn't make it better, it makes it worse, then its religion, or fundamental adherence to it. Do atheist Arabs have this problem? Do Iranians have this problem? 

    And the answer still does not solve the problem.
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #39 - January 24, 2010, 05:38 PM

    One thing I really resent about the public discussion of Islam is the 'this is our way'-rhetoric. So, for example, when someone talks about feminism, they say 'Well, we're feminist, too. It's just that we have our own feminism, which is different from the Western one'. And then you hear that this 'feminism' allows all the stuff that should actually be connected with misogyny, rather than feminism. The same goes for human rights in general. They say 'We have our own values and have the right to practise them. If you don't let us do it, then you're intolerant'. But this is madness. If someone starts a raping gang and attaches some ideology and values to it, does it mean I'm supposed to tolerate these values and let women be raped? The case with Sharia etc. is exactly the same. I always end up being bashed for being intolerant (or worse: racist). This all makes it really difficult to argue and criticise Muslims. Really difficult.
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #40 - January 24, 2010, 05:43 PM

    I don't think Tariq Ramadan is a Muslim reformer. I think he's more stealthy in his prescriptions regarding sharia and Islam. He utilises the rhetoric of the Left, but I don't believe he is actually a progressive, and I believe that he thinks European society should accomodate itself to Islam rather than the other way.

    his fee-paying audience is muslim, I think thats why he rarely references his atheism, and turns quite shy when the topic ever comes up

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  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #41 - January 24, 2010, 05:46 PM

    what? tariq ramadan is not an atheist, you mean tariq ali?
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #42 - January 24, 2010, 06:26 PM

    my bad - gotta slow down my speed-reading Wink

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  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #43 - January 24, 2010, 07:54 PM

    Today I was discussing the case of hajj and male companionship. This is what I heard:

    'For hadj, the woman must be accompanied by a mahram (brother, father, husband, son) for long distances. Short distances like the pharmacy, the market... the woman can be unaccompanied! Allah created man and women diferently and both are dependent on each others. If this law was followed, no women would have been raped! Just look at the facts, every second four women are raped in the US! In Islamic countries, it is not like this! Because the women dress decently and are accompanied! We muslims, we protect and cover our women, because they are precious to us! You non muslims , Your men let you dress indecently and don't care about where you go! This is why infidelity is present in most european couples! There is no love in the couple! One of the sign of judgement day would be that normal things will seem anormal and anormal things will be the accepted norms!'

    Do you have any statistics on rape in Islamic countries? Because I'm 100% sure it's a big problem there, contrary to what he says.
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #44 - January 24, 2010, 09:11 PM

    Do you have any statistics on rape in Islamic countries? Because I'm 100% sure it's a big problem there, contrary to what he says.

    How he understands "rape" is different to how you understand "rape".
    For one thing rape within a marriage is not regarded as rape in Sharia (and thus in the statistics for Islamic countries generally).

    Secondly Sharia requires 4 male witnesses (8 female) for rape charges to stick, without these, someone complaining about rape will be killed/jailed (as they have "confessed" to non-marital sex by complaining of rape) - this tends to reduce the number of women reporting rape. (When Pakistan introduced this rule in the 1980's for example the majority of female prison population ended up being jailed for having been raped and being silly enough to complain about it).

    All in all, because rape is often not regarded as a crime (within marriage) or not a crime which can be reported, it does tend to occur often in such countries as the perpetrators get away with it.
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #45 - January 24, 2010, 09:45 PM

    No comment, this is horrible...
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #46 - January 24, 2010, 10:01 PM

    No comment, this is horrible...

    There was a case in Sudan (I think - might have been Somalia...) a couple of years back where a rape victim actually had 7 female witnesses.
    Unfortunately that wasn't enough and as the punishment there was stoning, she was executed. 

  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #47 - January 24, 2010, 11:30 PM

    hupla please tell her why 8 female witnesses rather 4 witnesses. I fear an apolgist might say well that's only in those countries, that's not real islam.
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #48 - January 25, 2010, 08:03 AM

    hupla please tell her why 8 female witnesses rather 4 witnesses. I fear an apolgist might say well that's only in those countries, that's not real islam.

    It's to do with the rules of evidence in Sharia.
    2 female witnesses are equivalent to 1 male witness in Sharia.
    So 4 male witnesses=8 female or 3male+2female etc.

    No real explanation as such but justified by Muslims generally as "women are forgetful and need another woman to help clarify things".

    Other interesting rules of evidence in Sharia include the fact that non-Muslim's testimony is always "beaten" by that of a Muslim - as non-Muslims have "lied about the truth of Islam" and are therefore liars.
    So in a situation between a Muslim and a non-Muslim one saying "he blasphemed against Islam" and "no I didn't" - the Muslim always wins...

  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #49 - January 25, 2010, 09:08 AM

    No comment, this is horrible...

    25% of women in pakisani jails are there for reporting a non-marital rape.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #50 - January 25, 2010, 10:25 AM

    have you just made that statistic up?

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  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #51 - January 25, 2010, 10:30 AM

    I know why - a woman's testimony is less worth than that of a man...
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #52 - January 25, 2010, 10:34 AM

    is it because Mo thinks she has half a brain yes

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  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #53 - January 25, 2010, 10:40 AM

    have you just made that statistic up?

    According to a report by Pakistan's National Commission on the Status of Women (NCSW), an estimated 80% of women in jail in 2003 were there because "they had failed to prove rape charges and were consequently convicted of adultery."

    I am a pagan worshiper of love: the creed of Muslims I do not need

    - Amir Khusro
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #54 - January 25, 2010, 10:53 AM

    8 witness to prove a rape charge? What, during an orgy or something? So insane. What was Mo thinking?
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #55 - January 25, 2010, 01:51 PM

    8 witness to prove a rape charge? What, during an orgy or something? So insane. What was Mo thinking?

    It was a situation he didn't really think about.
    The 4 witnesses Sura came about because some Muslims came to Muhammad complaining that Aisha had had an affair with some guy (and thus had to be stoned to death).  Presumably there were 3 of them there.  It would appear that Muhammad was sufficiently fond of Aisha that he forgave her and conveniently Allah gave the the 4 witnesses sura.

    There are some suggestions that the reason the original stoning verse of the Quran disappeared was because Aisha later wanted it to disappear...

    The 2 female witnesses = 1 male is from somewhere else (in the Quran I think - not hadith?)

    Mo never really thought about the situation where someone got raped - it was just a consequence of the law on adultery - so concepts such as "consent" don't really exist in Sharia- a bit of a lacuna.

    The stats are from that Women's Commission report - half remembered(thanks Farhad!).
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #56 - January 25, 2010, 04:15 PM

    But there is something like Islamic Feminism, isn't there?
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #57 - January 25, 2010, 04:17 PM

    As to rape, yeah, I was thinking the same. So they were standing there (4 guys) watching it happen right? Interesting. They'd probably say in response that they were there so that they could report a rape <lol>.
  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #58 - January 25, 2010, 04:31 PM

    As to rape, yeah, I was thinking the same. So they were standing there (4 guys) watching it happen right? Interesting.

    Thats not rape, thats a gang bang
    According to a report by Pakistan's National Commission on the Status of Women (NCSW), an estimated 80% of women in jail in 2003 were there because "they had failed to prove rape charges and were consequently convicted of adultery."

    I cant believe its 80% of women in jail - what a shame, and also waste of already meagre public resources..

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  • Re: Is it getting better with women's rights?
     Reply #59 - January 25, 2010, 04:33 PM

    Wait what? When did Pakistan implement sharia law?  Huh?
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