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 Topic: Integration, what does it mean?

 (Read 14413 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Integration, what does it mean?
     OP - January 30, 2010, 04:24 PM
    How much of a culture should be lost to English culture or way of life before we get harmony?

    Arthur.
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #1 - January 30, 2010, 04:27 PM
    That assumes that integration is a fundamentally 'cultural' problem.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #2 - January 30, 2010, 04:32 PM
    Quote
    That assumes that integration is a fundamentally 'cultural' problem


    It largely is.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #3 - January 30, 2010, 04:34 PM

    Arthur, the EDL will do nothing to bring about greater integration in our society. As a first step to answering how Britain can become a more cohesive society, sparking off mini-riots in places unassociated with Islamic extremism is not the solution.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #4 - January 30, 2010, 04:40 PM
    Quote from: arthur1 on January 30, 2010, 04:24 PM
    How much of a culture should be lost to English culture or way of life before we get harmony?

    English culture? What exactly do you mean by that?
    When you say "English culture" you surely mean humanistic, enlightenment values?

    Quote from: billy on January 30, 2010, 04:32 PM
    It largely is a "cultural" problem.

    +1
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #5 - January 30, 2010, 04:53 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 30, 2010, 04:32 PM
    It largely is.




    Shared culture doesn't stop people being atomised or estranged, so I don't think so.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #6 - January 30, 2010, 04:58 PM
    Quote from: arthur1 on January 30, 2010, 04:24 PM
    How much of a culture should be lost to English culture or way of life before we get harmony?

    Arthur.


     Bit of a strange question.If you went to work/live in Pakistan how much of your culture would you be willing to loose? People mainly come here to work and earn more money than they would in their own country.They don't come here because they want to change their nationality or religion.

     I think it all boils down to what your definition of integration is.
     
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #7 - January 30, 2010, 04:59 PM
    Quote
    Shared culture doesn't stop people being atomised or estranged, so I don't think so.


    Culture encompasses values and attitudes that can lead to self-estrangement, and your not thinking so doesn't alter that.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #8 - January 30, 2010, 05:03 PM
    Quote from: panoptic on January 30, 2010, 04:53 PM
    Shared culture doesn't stop people being atomised or estranged, so I don't think so.

    Partially true, however a socially awkward emo/nerd/etc.. is less likely to blow himself up on a subway as a result of his woes.
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #9 - January 30, 2010, 05:06 PM
    Quote from: arthur1 on January 30, 2010, 04:24 PM
    How much of a culture should be lost to English culture or way of life before we get harmony?

    Arthur.



    Can you give us an example of one of these 'cultures'.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #10 - January 30, 2010, 05:07 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 30, 2010, 04:59 PM
    Culture encompasses values and attitudes that can lead to self-estrangement, and your not thinking so doesn't alter that.




    So, now, as Tony says, let's define integration.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #11 - January 30, 2010, 05:08 PM
    Quote
    So, now, as Tony says, let's define integration.

     

    Define atmoisation and estrangement first.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #12 - January 30, 2010, 05:11 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on January 30, 2010, 05:03 PM
    Partially true, however a socially awkward emo/nerd/etc.. is less likely to blow himself up on a subway as a result of his woes.


    The people blowing themselves up so far haven't appeared to be very personally motivated and the attacks planned by well-organised networks with political goals. Also they can be said to have been very integrated.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #13 - January 30, 2010, 05:12 PM
    Quote
    The people blowing themselves up so far haven't appeared to be very personally motivated and the attacks planned by well-organised networks with political goals. Also they can be said to have been very integrated.


    Wrong, and wrong.

    Lets start from the premise that murdering people in suicide bombing and planning to do so is a fundamental breach of the principles of integration.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #14 - January 30, 2010, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 30, 2010, 05:08 PM


    Define atmoisation and estrangement first.




    The subject of the thread being integration it would seem better to define that first. Atomisation refers to how separated/isolated people in society are, 'estrangement' is pretty simple and follows from the former, although it is nebulous. One example might be distrust of others.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #15 - January 30, 2010, 05:17 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 30, 2010, 05:12 PM
    Wrong, and wrong.

    Lets start from the premise that murdering people in suicide bombing and planning to do so is a fundamental breach of the principles of integration.




    So what motivations or 'woes' have they had?

    By integration we are surely talking about social fact, rather than a doctrine to be followed. At least that is how it's always used.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #16 - January 30, 2010, 05:19 PM
    Quote from: arthur1 on January 30, 2010, 04:24 PM
    How much of a culture should be lost to English culture or way of life before we get harmony?

    Arthur.

    No sure if culture is the biggest problem, religion is far bigger and the cause of extremism.  I dont see hindus & sikhs as an issue and they come from the same culture as those you point your finger at. 

    Culture will automotically homogenise (for the better of all) over time, and so will religion after a longer period.

    In any case on a day to day level, most get on with their lives and I dont see this disharmony you are so concerned with affecting anybody other than those on the fringes.  And they're the ones exacerbating it.  There no shariah law coming in soon, no law enforcing genital mutilation on all, so best to get over it and stop focusing on it.
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  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #17 - January 30, 2010, 05:19 PM
    Quote
    The subject of the thread being integration it would seem better to define that first.


    If one follows the other they can be defined in parallel. They are linked, that's an assumption that we can make. You made it yourself when you said that atomisation and estrangement are not linked to culture - so you must have an idea in your mind of what integration is, no matter how general that may be.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #18 - January 30, 2010, 05:20 PM
    Quote from: panoptic on January 30, 2010, 05:17 PM
    So what motivations or 'woes' have they had?


    You tell us what you think motivates jihadis with murderous intent and practice. We can proceed from there.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #19 - January 30, 2010, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: panoptic on January 30, 2010, 05:11 PM
    The people blowing themselves up so far haven't appeared to be very personally motivated and the attacks planned by well-organised networks with political goals.

    This assumption is questionable at best. Have you seen the video posted by one of the 7/7 bombers?

    Quote from: panoptic on January 30, 2010, 05:11 PM
    Also they can be said to have been very integrated.

    In my book "well integrated people" just don't do stuff like that. Unless pathology is involved.



  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #20 - January 30, 2010, 05:23 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 30, 2010, 05:19 PM
    If one follows the other they can be defined in parallel. They are linked, that's an assumption that we can make. You made it yourself when you said that atomisation and estrangement are not linked to culture - so you must have an idea in your mind of what integration is, no matter how general that may be.


    I didn't say they are not linked to culture. I said they are not a fundamentally cultural problem, and I stand by that.

    But I purposefully said that to try out this notion of integration. It seems, if anything, the OP relies on a notion of integration that would otherwise not go challenged.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #21 - January 30, 2010, 05:26 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on January 30, 2010, 05:21 PM
    This assumption is questionable at best. Have you seen the video posted by one of the 7/7 bombers?


    I have seen such videos. It's the usual fare. From what is known of them biographically it's hard to argue that they were motivated by personal grievances.

    Quote
    In my book "well integrated people" just don't do stuff like that. Unless pathology is involved.


    Right, but they weren't outside their community, the same way muslim suicide bombers are supposed to be. Such cases may also fit into the 'awkward/emo' type you mentioned.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #22 - January 30, 2010, 05:26 PM
    Quote
    I said they are not a fundamentally cultural problem, and I stand by that.


    "Integration" suggests a set of cultural attitudes and a culture that can be integrated into. Self alienation and self atomisation is one of the causes of whatever breakdown in social cohesion exists in a society,  and in my opinion, is perhaps the primary cause in our particular context. So to say that culture is not fundamental to the question is ridiculous.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #23 - January 30, 2010, 05:31 PM
    Quote from: panoptic on January 30, 2010, 05:26 PM
    From what is known of them biographically it's hard to argue that they were motivated by personal grievances.


    Frankly, you are ignorant of their backgrounds and motivations then.

    Here is a good study of their personal motivations, grievances, cultural attitudes and self-estrangement by the journalist Shiv Malik.

    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2007/06/mybrotherthebomber/

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #24 - January 30, 2010, 05:32 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on January 30, 2010, 05:21 PM
    This assumption is questionable at best. Have you seen the video posted by one of the 7/7 bombers?
    In my book "well integrated people" just don't do stuff like that. Unless pathology is involved.

    Well integrated people dont do that, people who are crazy or religious fanatics (see homegrown christians at abortion clinics) do.  If you blame culture, please name the last Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh suicide bomber in the UK?
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  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #25 - January 30, 2010, 05:35 PM
    Quote from: panoptic on January 30, 2010, 05:23 PM
    I said they are not a fundamentally cultural problem, and I stand by that.

    If so, what is the answer then?
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #26 - January 30, 2010, 05:42 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 30, 2010, 05:26 PM
    "Integration" suggests a set of cultural attitudes and a culture that can be integrated into.


    Although it may well rely on that, in practise it means the level of cohesion in civil society including all of the relations, institutions that exist with in it.

    Quote
    Self alienation and self atomisation is one of the causes of whatever breakdown in social cohesion exists in a society,  and in my opinion, is perhaps the primary cause in our particular context. So to say that culture is not fundamental to the question is ridiculous.


    'Our particular context' = Britain? Or muslims in Britain?

    The implication of the OP is pretty clear that cultural differences stand in the way of 'harmony' (maybe dogs no longer chasing cats, and the planets aligning too). This is the typical narrative against multiculturalism. Yet both stem from similar grounds.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #27 - January 30, 2010, 05:48 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 30, 2010, 05:32 PM
    If you blame culture, please name the last Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh suicide bomber in the UK?

    I referred to "culture" in a way that encompasses fundamental values people subscribe to. Intrinsic values of a Sufi are usually different compared to values of somebody who subscribes to a Salafi worldview; I don't really see the fundamental connection between say "Buddhist culture" and "Islamic culture" in the way you are implying.

    Quote from: IsLame on January 30, 2010, 05:32 PM
    ...see homegrown christians at abortion clinics)...

    They are as alien to me as Muslim fanatics. "My culture" has got nothing to do with "their culture".
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #28 - January 30, 2010, 05:57 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 30, 2010, 05:31 PM
    Frankly, you are ignorant of their backgrounds and motivations then.

    Here is a good study of their personal motivations, grievances, cultural attitudes and self-estrangement by the journalist Shiv Malik.

    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2007/06/mybrotherthebomber/


    From that article, it's certainly not clear that they were motivated by personal problems. I doubt that such attacks would occur without terrorist networks well beyond our shores.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #29 - January 30, 2010, 05:58 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on January 30, 2010, 05:48 PM
    I referred to "culture" in a way that encompasses fundamental values people subscribe to. Intrinsic values of a Sufi are usually different compared to values of somebody who subscribes to a Salafi worldview; I don't really see the fundamental connection between say "Buddhist culture" and "Islamic culture" in the way you are implying.

    so in the OP can we replace the term culture with wahhabism, or do you believe its foreign culture thats the problem?
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