Integration, what does it mean?

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #30 - January 30, 2010, 06:05 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 30, 2010, 05:58 PM
so in the OP can we replace the term culture with wahhabism, or do you believe its foreign culture thats the problem?

The problem is a specific set of values, whether they happen to be foreign or home-grown is not the issue.
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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #31 - January 30, 2010, 06:22 PM

Quote from: Kenan on January 30, 2010, 05:35 PM
If so, what is the answer then?

Not simple. As I said I wanted to draw some problems out a little, rather than dance to tune of the EDL.

Multiculturalism (read: communitarianism) is certainly implicated in the problems of integration, including encouraging muslims to wear the cloak of victimhood, resignation, meek religiosity etc.. But how? Because it is part and parcel of a disintegration of social relations in general - finding analogues everywhere - with the attack on the w/c, along with its de-politicization. Partitioning and governing people as separate communities is a way of patching over and at the same time reinforcing this self-same process, that has been fostered by years of social/economic policy under capitalism, with the reduction of politics to a two party system in the service of a small number of the elite, to the exclusion of the vast majority. The product of communitarian multiculturalism is its assumption. Hardly an accident. Such things as: 'Decline in civic values/community/integration' rather than an unfortunate by-product of the progression of things has been deliberately engineered, as part of capitalism AND imperialism's strategy against the popular classes. Now we get such religious fundamentalism, on the one hand, and the BNP on the other, not to mention a host of signs of a deteriorating culture (indeed!). All symptomatic of a disease requiring a total cure.

Note, secularism is systematically undermined in the process.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #32 - January 30, 2010, 06:27 PM

Quote from: Kenan on January 30, 2010, 06:05 PM
The problem is a specific set of values, whether they happen to be foreign or home-grown is not the issue.

Before we begin to discuss how to solve it, we need to know what we are looking at. Are you referring to relgious values or cultural values?

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #33 - January 30, 2010, 06:30 PM

IMO, Britain needs to get tougher on integration of minority communities. I'm not saying they should completely give up their cultural identities but when someone immigrates to a new country the onus should be upon them to learn about and live within the culture they are now a part of.

What I think the problem is today within the UK is that immigrant parents are drumming this notion into their second generation kids' heads that their culture is superior to the native culture and that they must keep separate from it. From what I've heard from my mom who is a second-generation German-American, when her parents first came to the States in the 1930s they were pretty much told that yes, you can hang onto your roots and religious practices (Jewish) but in order to get along in American society you MUST learn English, get a job and contribute to society as full citizens of the nation in which you now live.

The only cultural issues my mom had growing up were over being allowed to have a Christmas tree in the house and having to go to Hebrew school on Sundays but I do not recall my grandparents ever boasting about how much better German-Jews were than the majority Christian American populace surrounding them.

I know that this example is not reflective of what many Muslim immigrant families experience when they come to the West but I've had many conversations with friends whose parents were immigrants and whereas in the case of my grandparents, they had to immigrate because their lives depended upon it, many Muslims are economic immigrants. They come to the West to reap the benefits of an open, free-market society but at the same time they turn around and dis that very same society for having a different moral system than theirs. This just smacks of hypocrisy to me, and it really pisses me off!

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #34 - January 30, 2010, 07:04 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 30, 2010, 06:27 PM
Before we begin to discuss how to solve it, we need to know what we are looking at. Are you referring to relgious values or cultural values?

Both. But not in their entirety. Plus it is sometimes difficult to distinguish between the two.
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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #35 - January 30, 2010, 07:21 PM

Quote from: panoptic on January 30, 2010, 05:42 PM
Although it may well rely on that

In other words, it is fundamental.

Quote from: panoptic on January 30, 2010, 05:42 PM
This is the typical narrative against multiculturalism. Yet both stem from similar grounds.

You talk as if a narrative against multiculturalism is a bad thing.

State leveraged multiculturalism has done much to promote a sectarianism in British society, to privelige identity politics. There is plenty that can reasonably be levelled at multiculturalism as a political ideology.

(And don't conflate cosmopolitanism and multi-racialism with multiculturalims)

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #36 - January 30, 2010, 07:21 PM

Quote from: panoptic on January 30, 2010, 05:57 PM
From that article, it's certainly not clear that they were motivated by personal problems

You have either not read it, or you have failed to understand it.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #37 - January 30, 2010, 07:41 PM

Quote from: billy on January 30, 2010, 07:21 PM
In other words, it is fundamental.

No. Shared language is important, but it's not the essence of the matter.

Quote
You talk as if a narrative against multiculturalism is a bad thing.

State leveraged multiculturalism has done much to promote a sectarianism in British society, to privelige identity politics. There is plenty that can reasonably be levelled at multiculturalism as a political ideology.

I addressed this in my previous post in this thread.

Right-wing culturalism isn't the answer to liberal multi-culturalism. As I said, they both have analogous flaws, they're both divisive. Except the latter is worse.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #38 - January 30, 2010, 07:51 PM

I think most would agree that integration is mainly about learning the language, working and contributing to the tax system, and accepting a set of values that is characteristic of the given society.
However the way I see it, integration can not be simply measured or appraised by a set of criteria. I mean one of the 7/7 bombers worked in his family's fish and chips shop and used to love cricket !!

Only the person in question can know for sure whether s/he is integrated. It's about what you identify with. I've lived just a little more than a year in the UK as opposed to 20 years in Iraq and I already feel that I belong here more than I belong in Iraq. Another way to put it is that I identify more with the average Brit than with the average Iraqi.

I prefer to live in a country where the people value freedom of speech and equality under the law; where individual rights matter; where people are tolerant of others' religious beliefs; where nepotism and corruption are not a norm; where religion is not a fundamental part of people's daily life; where polygamy is outlawed and women are empowered; where people are generally not homophobic; where people question and challenge authority and don't adulate their leaders... and the list goes on and on.

These "values" are more important to me than mother tongue, kinship, homeland, or even cuisine for that matter. That's why even if Iraq one day became a safe prosperous country like the UAE, I would never think of going back as long as it retains its current social mores and values.

So my answer to Arthur's question is yes some "culture" must be lost in order to be genuinely integrated in one's newly-adopted society.
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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #39 - January 30, 2010, 08:23 PM

I was wondering what integration actually meant in the sense of what people have to give up.
For example, I spend six months of the year in Italy and I live in a mountain community with 10 houses in it and it is a very close community and I do my best to fit in, I do this because I like their way of life.

Can I say that this has nothing to do with EDL, I am just trying to see what the problems are and work out in my mind how I should look upon it. So that my opinion is not unreasonable.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #40 - January 30, 2010, 08:27 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on January 30, 2010, 07:51 PM
I think most would agree that integration is mainly about learning the language, working and contributing to the tax system, and accepting a set of values that is characteristic of the given society.
However the way I see it, integration can not be simply measured or appraised by a set of criteria. I mean one of the 7/7 bombers worked in his family's fish and chips shop and used to love cricket !!

Only the person in question can know for sure whether s/he is integrated. It's about what you identify with. I've lived just a little more than a year in the UK as opposed to 20 years in Iraq and I already feel that I belong here more than I belong in Iraq. Another way to put it is that I identify more with the average Brit than with the average Iraqi.

I prefer to live in a country where the people value freedom of speech and equality under the law; where individual rights matter; where people are tolerant of others' religious beliefs; where nepotism and corruption are not a norm; where religion is not a fundamental part of people's daily life; where polygamy is outlawed and women are empowered; where people are generally not homophobic; where people question and challenge authority and don't adulate their leaders... and the list goes on and on.

These "values" are more important to me than mother tongue, kinship, homeland, or even cuisine for that matter. That's why even if Iraq one day became a safe prosperous country like the UAE, I would never think of going back as long as it retains its current social mores and values.

So my answer to Arthur's question is yes some "culture" must be lost in order to be genuinely integrated in one's newly-adopted society.

That's a good answer, thanks.

Arthur.
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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #41 - January 30, 2010, 08:31 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on January 30, 2010, 07:51 PM
These "values" are more important to me than mother tongue, kinship, homeland, or even cuisine for that matter.

Exactly! Same here.
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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #42 - January 30, 2010, 11:08 PM

Quote from: panoptic on January 30, 2010, 07:41 PM
No. Shared language is important, but it's not the essence of the matter.

I didn't say anything about language - I said: "Integration" suggests a set of cultural attitudes and a culture that can be integrated into.

Meaning it is of the essence, and fundamental to the issue.

Quote from: panoptic on January 30, 2010, 07:41 PM
Right-wing culturalism isn't the answer to liberal multi-culturalism. As I said, they both have analogous flaws, they're both divisive. Except the latter is worse.

'Right wing culturalism' doesn't really mean anything, its a buzz phrase to project onto people you disagree with and to make out they are 'divisive' and 'worse'. Multiculturalism as it has been practised in the UK over the last twenty years, as a leveraged ideology of identity politics and group privelige, has exacerbated inequality and sectarianism and lessened integration between people.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #43 - January 30, 2010, 11:12 PM

Quote from: arthur1 on January 30, 2010, 08:23 PM
I was wondering what integration actually meant in the sense of what people have to give up.
For example, I spend six months of the year in Italy and I live in a mountain community with 10 houses in it and it is a very close community and I do my best to fit in, I do this because I like their way of life.

Can I say that this has nothing to do with EDL, I am just trying to see what the problems are and work out in my mind how I should look upon it. So that my opinion is not unreasonable.

Arthur

I'm amazed that you have anything to do with them. You seem like a reasonable man with some sensitivity who wants the best in society. Why you can't see why their actions are inimical to social cohesion, I just don't know.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #44 - January 31, 2010, 12:15 AM

Quote from: billy on January 30, 2010, 11:08 PM
I didn't say anything about language - I said: "Integration" suggests a set of cultural attitudes and a culture that can be integrated into.

Meaning it is of the essence, and fundamental to the issue.

The most important aspect of any acculturation is language, and some describe culture as a kind of shared language itself.

But to return to what I said, I don't see it as a fundamentally cultural problem. That's getting the cart before the horse. This business about integration is no surprise with social cohesion across the board in decline - the result of three decades of Thatcherism. NL's form of multiculti governing is merely an extension of that trend, reinforcing fragmentation.

Quote
'Right wing culturalism' doesn't really mean anything, its a buzz phrase to project onto people you disagree with and to make out they are 'divisive' and 'worse'.

The meaning is quite straight-forward: The right-wing/conservative emphasis on national culture. All conservatives and nationalist-populists turn political issues into ones about culture. It's a real ideological phenomenon, from Political Islam to neo-conservatism, to various European nationalisms. Divisive is being mild, but it's also erroneous and false.

Quote
Multiculturalism as it has been practised in the UK over the last twenty years, as a leveraged ideology of identity politics and group privelige, has exacerbated inequality and sectarianism and lessened integration between people.

'Group privilege' - multiculturalism, if anything, has tried to remove group privilege, not that it has succeeded. I think the more accurate term that MC is a euphemism for is communitarianism, an ideology whose view of contemporary social reality is of distinct 'communities'. As we can see with Nu Lab for whom it has formed part of their basis for governing, religion has also been made into a social actor, just like in the United States. This of course deliberately undermines secularism, as well as being an instrument of divide-and-rule.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #45 - January 31, 2010, 01:13 AM

What I've noticed that is that many people in the UK don't really know what multiculturalism is. They confuse it with the concept of a multi-ethnic society. And I think they got that from the media rhetoric.

If you come to think of it, other than introducing some anti-racism measures and promoting religious pluralism and ecumenism, the UK government and the MSM haven't actually done anything specifically to achieve MC.
The only thing I ever encountered that could be regarded as part of an official multicultural policy is an NHS leaflet in Hindi.
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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #46 - January 31, 2010, 01:13 AM

I am a citizen of the cosmos, everywhere I go, I identify with.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #47 - January 31, 2010, 05:56 AM

I had said this before, so I'll just repaste it.

Integration in society is about two things:
agreeing on general principles and being a member of the whole society. (unity, commonality, 'in it togetherness').
as an example:
Remember the videos by the 7/7 bombers. If you watch they repeatedly refer to Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, ect as 'their land', while the 'west' or the UK (to which they are citizens of) are 'your governments' 'your people' ect.
This is an example (be it from a person who is an extreme example) that illustrates the point. If one believes themselves separate from the society in which they live, and instead part of another one (in this case a make believe one known as the ummah) they are not integrated.
The same can be said to any exclusionary sub society that separates itself from the whole society (and in many cases is hostile to that 'outsider' society).
Religious based schools and communities are, by definition, not intergrated, anymore than a race based school would be.
Integration requires working towards a united society and a pluralistic 'monoculture' (this is not a oxymoron, by it I mean that all the diverse aspects that make up the pluralistic part are integrated into a larger universal culture shared by all members...the side effect being that these different subgroups need to lose their exceptionalism and exclusivity, which is something that bothers conservatives who cling to the traditionalism and exceptionalism of their group).

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #48 - January 31, 2010, 11:23 AM

Quote from: Homer on January 31, 2010, 05:56 AM
I had said this before, so I'll just repaste it.

Integration in society is about two things:
agreeing on general principles and being a member of the whole society. (unity, commonality, 'in it togetherness').
as an example:
Remember the videos by the 7/7 bombers. If you watch they repeatedly refer to Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, ect as 'their land', while the 'west' or the UK (to which they are citizens of) are 'your governments' 'your people' ect.
This is an example (be it from a person who is an extreme example) that illustrates the point. If one believes themselves separate from the society in which they live, and instead part of another one (in this case a make believe one known as the ummah) they are not integrated.
The same can be said to any exclusionary sub society that separates itself from the whole society (and in many cases is hostile to that 'outsider' society).
Religious based schools and communities are, by definition, not intergrated, anymore than a race based school would be.
Integration requires working towards a united society and a pluralistic 'monoculture' (this is not a oxymoron, by it I mean that all the diverse aspects that make up the pluralistic part are integrated into a larger universal culture shared by all members...the side effect being that these different subgroups need to lose their exceptionalism and exclusivity, which is something that bothers conservatives who cling to the traditionalism and exceptionalism of their group).

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #49 - January 31, 2010, 11:30 AM

Quote from: panoptic on January 31, 2010, 12:15 AM
The right-wing/conservative emphasis on national culture. All conservatives and nationalist-populists turn political issues into ones about culture. It's a real ideological phenomenon...

Ever noticed the left-wing emphasis on social class? "Lefties" always seem to turn political issues into ones about social class. It's a real ideological phenomenon.
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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #50 - January 31, 2010, 01:14 PM

Quote from: Kenan on January 31, 2010, 11:30 AM
Ever noticed the left-wing emphasis on social class? "Lefties" always seem to turn political issues into ones about social class. It's a real ideological phenomenon.

What is your point?

I suppose could've said it's a tendency, but it's a strong one.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #51 - January 31, 2010, 01:43 PM

Quote from: panoptic on January 31, 2010, 01:14 PM
What is your point?

Sorry, I am just being caustic for the sake of it. (Tbh in a way you have already answered the question yourself - apply "I suppose could've said it's a tendency, but it's a strong one." to this bit: "The right-wing/conservative emphasis on national culture. All conservatives and nationalist-populists turn political issues into ones about culture. It's a real ideological phenomenon..").
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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #52 - January 31, 2010, 04:59 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on January 31, 2010, 01:13 AM
What I've noticed that is that many people in the UK don't really know what multiculturalism is. They confuse it with the concept of a multi-ethnic society. And I think they got that from the media rhetoric.

There is truth in that. Cosmopolitanism is a grassroots reality. Identity politics and divisional policies are not progressive, they end up hurting society. 'Multiculturalism' as a political ideology (in contrast to cosmopolitanism and natural multi-ethnicity which are a simple grassroots reality of life) is not always progressive, in fact, it can be seen to be reactionary and inimical to a truly 'inclusive' society.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #53 - January 31, 2010, 05:01 PM

Quote from: panoptic on January 31, 2010, 12:15 AM
'Group privilege' - multiculturalism, if anything, has tried to remove group privilege, not that it has succeeded.

Multiculturalism as a political ideology has oppressed micro-minorities, ie: those within minority groups who are oppressed within those groups, for example, gays, Muslim apostates, dissenters, by priveliging communal and group rights over individual rights. It has led to those self appointed leaders of various 'communities' asserting themselves in reactionary ways, for example, as we can see by the agendas of various Islamic Ummah identity politicians over the years. The alternative to this is not this meaningless strawman of 'Right wing culturalists' but treating everybody the same, and to stop exacerbating sectarianism by priveligeing certain 'oppressed' groups over others, as we see happening now.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #54 - January 31, 2010, 05:03 PM

Quote from: billy on January 31, 2010, 05:01 PM
Multiculturalism as a political ideology has oppressed micro-minorities, ie: those within minority groups who are oppressed within those groups, for example, gays, Muslim apostates, dissenters, by priveliging communal and group rights over individual rights. It has led to those self appointed leaders of various 'communities' asserting themselves in reactionary ways, for example, as we can see by the agendas of various Islamic Ummah identity politicians over the years. The alternative to this is not this meaningless strawman of 'Right wing culturalists' but treating everybody the same, and to stop exacerbating sectarianism by priveligeing certain 'oppressed' groups over others, as we see happening now.

Couldn't agree more!
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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #55 - January 31, 2010, 05:10 PM

When I'm in Italy I want to become part of the community, I want to be accepted, to become a part of things, there are no other English people for miles so I can't join in with other English people and sort of bypass the Italians, if I want a conversation I have to be able to communicate and at my age it is difficult to learn another language but I get by, ha, just.

I join in local events and try to be helpful, especially as they go out of their way to help me.

So I wonder if instead of thinking nationally it should be brought down to a local and more personal level and interacting with say, people in your street.

Perhaps instead of thinking integration, we should be thinking interaction and if that is the case will large areas with one group stop this interaction, perhaps there needs to be more mixing.

Also occurs to me that one bit which seems to be missed is acceptance, there can't be integration without acceptance that all are equal.
So in my village in Italy I'm accepted by the villagers and this gives me an inclination to not do anything that they would find unacceptable.
For example, my house has little alcove with a religious figure in it, as an atheist I don't like it, but I've left it in place.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #56 - January 31, 2010, 05:14 PM

Quote
So I wonder if instead of thinking nationally it should be brought down to a local and more personal level and interacting with say, people in your street.

Perhaps instead of thinking integration, we should be thinking interaction and if that is the case will large areas with one group stop this interaction, perhaps there needs to be more mixing.

Arthur, why the hell are you involved with the EDL?

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #57 - January 31, 2010, 05:24 PM

Quote from: billy on January 31, 2010, 05:01 PM
Multiculturalism as a political ideology has oppressed micro-minorities, ie: those within minority groups who are oppressed within those groups, for example, gays, Muslim apostates, dissenters, by priveliging communal and group rights over individual rights. It has led to those self appointed leaders of various 'communities' asserting themselves in reactionary ways, for example, as we can see by the agendas of various Islamic Ummah identity politicians over the years.

MC hasn't, but one of its failings, or impasses, is that it can leave unaddressed some forms of oppression.

Quote
The alternative to this is not this meaningless strawman of 'Right wing culturalists' but treating everybody the same, and to stop exacerbating sectarianism by priveligeing certain 'oppressed' groups over others, as we see happening now.

Did I not already say that (in bold) when I reminded you I already spent a whole post criticizing multiculturalism? The vantage point of the OP is indeed right wing culturalism - cultural determinism - i.e individuals being determined by their culture. Something that is found both in liberal multiculturalism and the reactionary right (the BNP?). It's not a strawman, you tart!

Yours is the strawman.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #58 - January 31, 2010, 05:36 PM

Quote
MC hasn't, but one of its failings, or impasses, is that it can leave unaddressed some forms of oppression.

Multiculturalism as a political ideology has done exactly that.

Quote
Did I not already say that (in bold) when I reminded you I already spent a whole post criticizing multiculturalism? The vantage point of the OP is indeed right wing culturalism - cultural determinism - i.e individuals being determined by their culture. Something that is found both in liberal multiculturalism and the reactionary right (the BNP?). It's not a strawman, you tart! Yours is the strawman.

Leave aside the OP, even though he is not expressing a BNP viewpoint in his original post.

The BNP utilise the process and rhetoric and ideology of political multiculturalism and identity politics. They are the endgame of multiculturalism. In fact, multiculturalism is so deeply reactionary because it assumes an essentialised, static 'culture' of minorities that must be protected in the war of identity politics.

Being opposed to this does not mean you are a 'right wing culturalist' - it means you do not subscribe to the deeply reactionary politics of sectarianism that political multiculturalism is inherent with - it is the biggest, fattest, most bloated, silly strawman possible. Its a ten storey tall strawman. Most people in the world don't subscribe to this binary way of viewing society.

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Re: Integration, what does it mean?
Reply #59 - January 31, 2010, 05:45 PM

Quote from: billy on January 31, 2010, 05:36 PM

Multiculturalism as a political ideology has done exactly that.

Has it? How has it?

It is a failing of MC rather than a direct function of it.

Quote
The BNP utilise the process and rhetoric and ideology of political multiculturalism and identity politics. They are the endgame of multiculturalism. In fact, multiculturalism is so deeply reactionary because it assumes an essentialised, static 'culture' of minorities that must be protected in the war of identity politics.

The BNP, like other nationalists, advance their notion of reviving 'British (or white) culture'. Their problem isn't multiculturalist policies - their problem is pluralism and other cultures per se. To them, the problem is diversity itself.

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Being opposed to this does not mean you are a 'right wing culturalist' - it means you do not subscribe to the deeply reactionary politics of sectarianism that political multiculturalism is inherent with - it is the biggest, fattest, most bloated, silly strawman possible. Its a ten storey tall strawman. Most people in the world don't subscribe to this binary way of viewing society.

And, AGAIN(!) neither do I. I've spent three or four fucking posts explaining that very thing, which is why you're the one with the collosal strawman you utter, utter, twat!

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
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