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 Topic: My reply to skynightblaze

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  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #30 - February 05, 2010, 01:12 PM
    I did read the article. There is no specific reference to lying to defend Islam, unless you can point one out. Reference 13 that charlesmartel quoted refers to impudence or rudeness being undesirable. It does not give a green light to lying about Islam.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #31 - February 05, 2010, 01:33 PM
    @BlackDog,

    From the link you provided:

    Quote
    Shia authority, Ayatollah Sistani describes the concept of taqiyya as follows:

    1) Taqiyah is done for safety reasons. For example, a person fears that he might be killed or harmed, if he does not observe Taqiyah. In this case, it is obligatory to observe Taqiyah.
    2) Reconciliatory Taqiyah. This type of Taqiyah is done when a person intends to reconcile with the other side or when he intends to soften their hearts. This kind of Taqiyah is permissible but not obligatory.


    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #32 - February 05, 2010, 01:41 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 05, 2010, 01:12 PM
    I did read the article. There is no specific reference to lying to defend Islam, unless you can point one out. Reference 13 that charlesmartel quoted refers to impudence or rudeness being undesirable. It does not give a green light to lying about Islam.


    The reference that I quoted was from probably the number one site of shias, and the author, in order to prove that Sunnis can't disclaim taqiyya, was referring to Muhammad's behavior as practicing taqiyya. And what was Muhammad's behavior? Was it necessitated by some kind of threat to his life? The reference proves that taqiyya is nothing but deception, and for any reason, as long as one can justify it.

    Taqiyya is generally considered to be a shia doctrine, and if Shia themselves understand it as deception or lying, why should we think otherwise?
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #33 - February 05, 2010, 01:52 PM
    Even if Muslims were lying in order to deceive non Muslims to advance their religious agenda, it would be erroneous to call it Taqiyah, because, as so many people have pointed out to you, that is not what Taqiyyah is!


    Quote
    My interpretation has to be true because I back myself with logic and proofs. Read the link and refute my claim that islam sponsors terrorism if you  can.I have provided quran as well as hadiths to back my claims so there is no excuse for any muslim to claim that islam doesn?t sponsor terrorism.If  I am refuted I will stand corrected.



    How does it "have to be true"? You just create a link with no real evidence. In your opinion, the Qur'an and Hadith give legitimacy to terrorism. Muslims you speak to say this is not true. Therefore, in your opinion, these Muslims are lying in order to deceive non Muslims. You fail to take any other factors into account. You fail to take into account that the Muslims you speak to may actually be telling the truth about what they believe. You fail to take into account that different Muslims interpret the Qur'an and Hadith differently, in order to fit in with their fundamental beliefs. You fail to take into account that the verses and hadiths in question are taken by a lot of Muslims in the context of their time and circumstances. And most importantly, you fail to take into account that many Muslims do not know about these verses and hadiths. So your assertion that your interpretation "has to be true" is absolutely farcical.

    Quote from: skynightblaze on February 05, 2010, 09:09 AM
    @All

    Those who disagree with me lets just go to any islamic forum and open a  thread titled "Does islam sponsor terrorism". Lets provide them all the convincing proofs in this world from islamic scriptures to prove that islam sponsors terrorism.I shall write in a way that none can disagree even if he has enmity with me . After that lets take a poll as to how many agree that islam does indeed promote terrorism.SOme might think that I am sending people on wild goose chase. ACtually we dont even need to go there and do this. We all know how many people would agree that islam promotes terrorism. Atleast 95 % of muslims would say "No" Islam doesnt promote terrorism.There lies the answer to whether they lie or not!


    Here's a wild thought. Could it be that maybe they truly believe that Islam does not sponsor terrorism?
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #34 - February 05, 2010, 01:54 PM
    Awesome. So let me get this straight: any time you speak civilly to someone you don't actually respect you (yes you) are practicing taqiyya. So if practicing taqiyya makes Muslims unreliable how reliable are you?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #35 - February 05, 2010, 01:59 PM
    @OSMANTHUS

    Quote from: Aliadiere
    , could you please respond again once you understand Taqiyyah.

    If you ask Sunni Muslims, the vast majority of them would not know what it is. It is not a Sunni Muslim concept, it is a Shia concept. And even then, the whole point of taqiyya is to conceal faith when under threat. The purpose of Taqiyyah is not to conceal your faith in a covert bid to deceive people about Islam in a bid for world domination.

    So to say that Muslims are using Taqiyyah in an effort to take control of the west is farcical.

    By the way, I have also heard a Sunni Muslim saying that Shias are using Taqiyyah in the same way that your lot say that Muslims use Taqiyyah; i.e. a sinister bid to deceive in order to promote their religious agenda. This leads me to conclude that an accusation of Taqiyyah is a useful tool to use in order to attack your opponent


    YA I checked it . Here is what I found on WIkipedia.

    Quote from: Wikipedia
    The word "al-taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury." In political terms, it is used by critics of Islam to describe what they see as intentional concealment of Islamic doctrines in order to gain influence and deceive so-called "enemies of Islam". A one-word translation would be "dissimulation." [4][citation needed]


     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya


    What is meant by "Mental Injury" here? .I see losing of islam  as a mental injury for muslims.When islam loses credibility isnt it a mental injury for muslims? They do feel bad and thats why I see  Taqiyya does mean  lying for protecting integrity of islam. . Also see the last sentence that I have bolded.



    Btw its just not me who thinks Taqiyya is lying about islam . Here are a few articles making the same claim:


    http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm


    http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/EDL/forum/topics/taqiyya-lying-for-islam


    You may also
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #36 - February 05, 2010, 02:02 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 05, 2010, 01:54 PM
    Awesome. So let me get this straight: any time you speak civilly to someone you don't actually respect you (yes you) are practicing taqiyya. So if practicing taqiyya makes Muslims unreliable how reliable are you?


    Yes, it truly IS awesome. The al-islam site thinks that Muhammad practiced taqiyya. Do you disagree with them? You should take up the issue with the shia site I quoted Smiley.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #37 - February 05, 2010, 02:04 PM
    Sure you can find articles making that same claim on sites you favour. I'm not going to be flabbergasted by that revelation. Also note that Wiki does not say that your definition of taqiyya is a valid one. It basically just says you have nicked the word and put your own spin on it. That would be fine if you were just talking about your own opinions, but you are trying to make a case that this is an Islamic doctrine justified by the relevant texts. That is an entirely different kettle of fish.

    In any case, taqiyya is still only a Shia concept and not a Sunni one. Shia are only a minority of Muslims, so taqiyya is still not relevant to the vast majority of Muslims.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #38 - February 05, 2010, 02:05 PM
    Martel, you didn't answer my question. How often do you practice taqiyya in the same way Mohammed did in that example, and does this or does this not make you more or less trustworthy than the Muslims you are so worried about?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #39 - February 05, 2010, 02:08 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on February 05, 2010, 01:52 PM
    Here's a wild thought. Could it be that maybe they truly believe that Islam does not sponsor terrorism?


    And here is a wild answer in the form of a question: Do Muslims support Jihad?

    And please spare me the "inner struggle" bit.
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #40 - February 05, 2010, 02:12 PM
    You should know by now that your question does not have a blanket answer that applies to all Muslims in all circumstances.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #41 - February 05, 2010, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: charlesmartel on February 05, 2010, 02:08 PM
    And here is a wild answer in the form of a question: Do Muslims support Jihad?

    And please spare me the "inner struggle" bit.


    Stop playing ignorant. Nothing is as black and white as you like to think. ALL Muslims support Jihad. However, their definitions of Jihad vary massively.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #42 - February 05, 2010, 02:24 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 05, 2010, 02:05 PM
    Martel, you didn't answer my question. How often do you practice taqiyya in the same way Mohammed did in that example, and does this or does this not make you more or less trustworthy than the Muslims you are so worried about?


    Do you truly think you asked me a great question? Anyway, I will answer your question in a straightforward manner.

    1. Yes, I do sometimes what Muhammad did in that example. How often, I truly don't know.
    2. That does not have some divine sanction for me.
    3. The deception I carry out has no chance of becoming life/freedom threatening to the person deceived, while the Islamic taqiyya with respect to kuffar is intended to lull them in a false sense of security and comfort till the Allah's religion is established in their land. And kuffar ARE lulled; majority of them not seeing Islam as the threat it is is ample proof of this. This is the main reason of my worries. Who would worry about some one pretending to be nice merely for courtesy's sake?

    I hope I have answered your question to your satisfaction. By the way, what do you now say about Islamic taqiyya being meant only for preventing the danger?



    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #43 - February 05, 2010, 02:28 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 05, 2010, 02:04 PM
    Sure you can find articles making that same claim on sites you favour. I'm not going to be flabbergasted by that revelation. Also note that Wiki does not say that your definition of taqiyya is a valid one. It basically just says you have nicked the word and put your own spin on it. That would be fine if you were just talking about your own opinions, but you are trying to make a case that this is an Islamic doctrine justified by the relevant texts. That is an entirely different kettle of fish.

    In any case, taqiyya is still only a Shia concept and not a Sunni one. Shia are only a minority of Muslims, so taqiyya is still not relevant to the vast majority of Muslims.


    Even this site claims the same definition.Btw I didnt use a spin because what I said perfectly is acceptable as per the definition so lying for the sake of islam does constitute  Taqiyya. YOu can find the definition on so many sites .Here is one of the muslim site that tells us the same definition.

    http://www.al-islam.org/Encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html

    I aint denying your definition of Taqiyya. My claim is that Taqiyya also includes lying for the sake of islam in addition to what you said.

    Also I have addressed this that its A shia concept.SEe again ..

     Even If we assume that  Taqiyya isnt found in Sunni islam it doesnt matter. IF a sunni islam does what Shia muslim does when he/ she practices Taqiyya dont we get the right to accuse the sunni muslim of playing Taqiyya. The concept of Taqiyya originates in Shia but if the concept is followed by a sunni he should be accused of playing Taqiyya.ITs just a concept. A sunni muslim too plays TAqiyya when he does exactly what Taqiyya is supposed to mean!


  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #44 - February 05, 2010, 02:32 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 05, 2010, 02:04 PM
    Sure you can find articles making that same claim on sites you favour. I'm not going to be flabbergasted by that revelation. Also note that Wiki does not say that your definition of taqiyya is a valid one. It basically just says you have nicked the word and put your own spin on it. That would be fine if you were just talking about your own opinions, but you are trying to make a case that this is an Islamic doctrine justified by the relevant texts. That is an entirely different kettle of fish.

    In any case, taqiyya is still only a Shia concept and not a Sunni one. Shia are only a minority of Muslims, so taqiyya is still not relevant to the vast majority of Muslims.


    So you think that wiki is a more reliable site about a shia doctrine than al-islam itself?

    I know you are not going to be flabbergasted by anything I say or quote from. Should I try to debunk your latest claim by quoting Muhammad that "war is deceit" (Surely sunnis too would agree with that?), or by quoting instances from history about Muslims deceiving kuffar in order to subjugate them, or by quoting another major site that it is ok to lie about Islam if it helps in coversion?

    But since you are NOT going to be flabbergasted, what is the point? You have taken away the very reason for my efforts in this thread Cheesy
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #45 - February 05, 2010, 02:35 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 05, 2010, 02:12 PM
    You should know by now that your question does not have a blanket answer that applies to all Muslims in all circumstances.


    Did I ask for a "surah like" answer which applies to all Muslims in all circumstances? Cheesy

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #46 - February 05, 2010, 02:37 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on February 05, 2010, 02:15 PM
    Stop playing ignorant. Nothing is as black and white as you like to think. ALL Muslims support Jihad. However, their definitions of Jihad vary massively.


    Ok, so what is most commonly understood meaning of Jihad in your opinion?
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #47 - February 05, 2010, 02:37 PM
    Quote from: Aliadier
    Even if Muslims were lying in order to deceive non Muslims to advance their religious agenda, it would be erroneous to call it Taqiyah, because, as so many people have pointed out to you, that is not what Taqiyyah is!


    I have repeated myself . Definition of Taqiyya also includes lying for the sake of islam. Read my post addressed to yourself as well as Osmanthus.



    Quote from: Aliadiere
    Quote from: Skynightblaze
    My interpretation has to be true because I back myself with logic and proofs. Read the link and refute my claim that islam sponsors terrorism if you  can.I have provided quran as well as hadiths to back my claims so there is no excuse for any muslim to claim that islam doesn?t sponsor terrorism.If  I am refuted I will stand corrected.


    How does it "have to be true"? You just create a link with no real evidence. In your opinion, the Qur'an and Hadith give legitimacy to terrorism. Muslims you speak to say this is not true. Therefore, in your opinion, these Muslims are lying in order to deceive non Muslims. You fail to take any other factors into account. You fail to take into account that the Muslims you speak to may actually be telling the truth about what they believe. You fail to take into account that different Muslims interpret the Qur'an and Hadith differently, in order to fit in with their fundamental beliefs. You fail to take into account that the verses and hadiths in question are taken by a lot of Muslims in the context of their time and circumstances. And most importantly, you fail to take into account that many Muslims do not know about these verses and hadiths. So your assertion that your interpretation "has to be true" is absolutely farcical.



    Aliadiere its clear that you havent read the link . I have posted undeniable proofs which without doubts establish that islam promotes terrorism. Muslims say opposite of me but both me and muslims cannot be right. One of us is telling the truth while the other is lying. Proofs speak for themselves.You claim that there  could be different interpretation then please show me one . Please read the link I gave and try  refuting it.Show me that a interpretation other than what I say is possible.Also I said that I cant blame the muslim for lying if he is unaware. Once a muslim is shown that he is in error then there is no excuse for him to keep saying that islam is a religion of peace.



    Quote from: Aliadiere
    Here's a wild thought. Could it be that maybe they truly believe that Islam does not sponsor terrorism?


    Yes they could be truly believing that islam doesnt sponsor terrorism but not at all if they are shown otherwise. My experience so far is both educated and ignorant muslims deny even when contradictory evidence is shown.


     
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #48 - February 05, 2010, 02:42 PM
    Quote from: charlesmartel on February 05, 2010, 02:24 PM
    Do you truly think you asked me a great question? Anyway, I will answer your question in a straightforward manner.

    1. Yes, I do sometimes what Muhammad did in that example. How often, I truly don't know.
    2. That does not have some divine sanction for me.
    3. The deception I carry out has no chance of becoming life/freedom threatening to the person deceived, while the Islamic taqiyya with respect to kuffar is intended to lull them in a false sense of security and comfort till the Allah's religion is established in their land. And kuffar ARE lulled; majority of them not seeing Islam as the threat it is is ample proof of this. This is the main reason of my worries. Who would worry about some one pretending to be nice merely for courtesy's sake?

    I hope I have answered your question to your satisfaction. By the way, what do you now say about Islamic taqiyya being meant only for preventing the danger?

    I thought my question was about as good as the ones you were asking. So in the example you gave how exactly were Mohammed's actions life threatening for the person he was being polite to? I mean that is what that particular example was about.

    Also, you still haven't shown me anywhere that it says you are specifically allowed to lie about Islam. Being polite is not the same thing. If you want to make a case that Shia (not Sunni) doctrine allows specifically telling lies about Islam then produce the evidence.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #49 - February 05, 2010, 02:44 PM
    Quote from: charlesmartel on February 05, 2010, 02:32 PM
    So you think that wiki is a more reliable site about a shia doctrine than al-islam itself?

    I know you are not going to be flabbergasted by anything I say or quote from. Should I try to debunk your latest claim by quoting Muhammad that "war is deceit" (Surely sunnis too would agree with that?), or by quoting instances from history about Muslims deceiving kuffar in order to subjugate them, or by quoting another major site that it is ok to lie about Islam if it helps in coversion?

    But since you are NOT going to be flabbergasted, what is the point? You have taken away the very reason for my efforts in this thread Cheesy


    Wouldn't matter to me, there are Catholics who believe in gay rights and Christians that believe that Jesus loves all and spread these ideas as being compatible with their religion, guess that means they are practicing Taqqiyah too, right?

    We don't know which Muslims are actually aware and willingly deceiving non-muslims and furthermore they may know a lot about Islam and have a different interpretation on certain verses relating to violence and so on that does not constitute lying or deceit. There are also scholars you can find on Islamic sites that believe that terrorism is wrong and incompatible with Islam - are they practicing Taqqiyah?
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #50 - February 05, 2010, 02:45 PM
    Quote from: charlesmartel on February 05, 2010, 02:35 PM
    Did I ask for a "surah like" answer which applies to all Muslims in all circumstances? Cheesy

    Yes you effectively did, because your question was "Do Muslims support jihad?"

    How is that not asking for an answer that applies to all Muslims in all situations? Adding smileys to your post doesn't change this.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #51 - February 05, 2010, 02:46 PM
    @Osmanthus


    http://schnellmann.org/taqiyyah.html

    Check yet another link.I am not making inventions.
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #52 - February 05, 2010, 02:49 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on February 05, 2010, 02:44 PM
    Wouldn't matter to me, there are Catholics who believe in gay rights and Christians that believe that Jesus loves all and spread these ideas as being compatible with their religion, guess that means they are practicing Taqqiyah too, right?

    We don't know which Muslims are actually aware and willingly deceiving non-muslims and furthermore they may know a lot about Islam and have a different interpretation on certain verses relating to violence and so on that does not constitute lying or deceit. There are also scholars you can find on Islamic sites that believe that terrorism is wrong and incompatible with Islam - are they practicing Taqqiyah?


    HeyjustLooking I have arleady refuted this. Please read the post. I have already refuted the same arguments from Aliadiere as well as  Blackdog.
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #53 - February 05, 2010, 02:50 PM
    roflmao. A site that quotes Ali Sina? Cheesy
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #54 - February 05, 2010, 02:52 PM
    @SNB, sorry to intervene in your discussion. I checked the link and it specifically says 'do not take non-muslims as friends in preference of Muslims. Except by way of protecting YOURSELVeS against them.' Once again this does not underline any instruction to lie about Islam for some political gain but is as a matter of protecting oneself. Unless I'm blind, feel free to correct me.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #55 - February 05, 2010, 02:53 PM
    @Osmanthus

    You dont trust Ali Sina doesnt mean he cannot be right. Also there are links to the books written by people whose title is " Taqiyya-lying for the sake of islam" . The bottom line is definition of Taqiyya does inlude lying for the sake of islam also with the definition you quoted.
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #56 - February 05, 2010, 02:54 PM
    I'm guessing SNB thinks that Muslims secretly intend to impose Shariah Law in UK too.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #57 - February 05, 2010, 02:56 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on February 05, 2010, 02:52 PM
    @SNB, sorry to intervene in your discussion. I checked the link and it specifically says 'do not take non-muslims as friends in preference of Muslims. Except by way of protecting YOURSELVeS against them.' Once again this does not underline any instruction to lie about Islam for some political gain but is as a matter of protecting oneself. Unless I'm blind, feel free to correct me.


    Read the past 2 pages. Lying for the sake of islam does satisfy the definition of Taqiyya. Also did you read all the posts of Charlesmartel and mine
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #58 - February 05, 2010, 02:57 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on February 05, 2010, 02:54 PM
    I'm guessing SNB thinks that Muslims secretly intend to impose Shariah Law in UK too.


    To be frank I dont know  however my belief is they are not!
  • Re: My reply to skynightblaze
     Reply #59 - February 05, 2010, 03:02 PM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on February 05, 2010, 02:56 PM
    Read the past 2 pages. Lying for the sake of islam does satisfy the definition of Taqiyya. Also did you read all the posts of Charlesmartel and mine


    Not to be rude but read your own link . The verse does not say anything about lying for the sake of Islam. I even highlighted it for you. Yes I did read your previous posts you said that Jihad unquestionably permits offensive fighting and terrorism. Once again many Muslims have different interpretations on the Qur'an such as which verses abrogate which and so on. Not even Muslims scholars are in agreement about this issue.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
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