Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim

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- ZOMG
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #360 - July 22, 2012, 01:18 AM

A few interesting Qs:

1). Why did Allah reveal his book in a language that was pretty much extinct a few hundred years after the Qu'ran? A language which even the 90% of Arabs can't understand now and 99.9% of the muslim population can't understand? Surely, Allah, being the all-knower would know this would occur and reveal his Qu'ran in another language, or perhaps send down an alternative Qu'ran along with the original classical Arabic one for the future generations. This means that very early on in Islam's history people have had to depend on translations from others for them to truly attain the message of the Qu'ran. If the Qu'ran is very simple and easy to grasp it's message, as Allah claims, then how come only a tiny minority of the population today can only really understand it in it's original form? This also creates many problems and conflicts when the Qu'ran is translated into different language by various people as many of the translators have different views on what some words mean and hence the original message is sometimes lost.

2). Why did Allah make many additions to the religion during the time of the Prophet Muhammad? It seems that Islam is a completely different religion compared to Judaism and Christianity, which Allah claims to have preceded Islam. So many new additions are made such as: prayers 5 times a day, Hajj, Umrah, Ramadan, new laws ect. Why did Allah wait for his final messenger to deliver all these new concepts into his religion and why not implement them from the start?

That's it for now I suppose and hopefully these point haven't been raised so far :p
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #361 - July 22, 2012, 12:14 PM

Your #2 question is excellent ZOMG! Never seen that asked before.

Not sure if this has come up in the thread, a more potent twist than simply trying to prove errors or borrowing:

Muslims seem quite satisfied to explain away individual instances of borrowed legends and scientific and historical errors with various creative explanations. But they might lose their comfort zone when you ask why a perfect author would have all this stuff that even *raises reasonable suspicions* of being recycled stories, geocentric etc. Surely such a being could be both poetic and avoid such an impression. Or clarify the truth in another verse (even if that means giving knowledge people at the time wouldn't appreciate, 3:7 says there's stuff not everyone can understand). A perfect author would reword the highly suspicious stuff in the first place though.

Perhaps the best example is the Dhu'l Qarnayn legend: a combination of borrowed legend and scientific error. Muslims have various creative (yet unconvincing) solutions, but surely Allah could have worded it in a way that isn't so awkward for Muslims to defend and potential converts to accept, and which didn't look like a version of pre-Islamic poems that indisputably have the sun setting into a spring!

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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #362 - July 22, 2012, 09:14 PM

On Question 1, is Arabic the divine language?

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We have made it an Arabic Koran that ye might understand it, but in the original with us it is sublime, wise" (xliii. 2). "Sublime, wise" probably means in an exalted and learned language. "Easing it with thy tongue" (xliv. 58) probably means translating it into Arabic. Its name Koran, "reading," refers to the Prophet's own mental experience.

http://www.muhammadanism.org/Margoliouth/early_mohammedanism/early_mohammedanism.pdf

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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #363 - July 23, 2012, 01:09 PM

Quote from: nj7 on July 22, 2012, 12:14 PM
Perhaps the best example is the Dhu'l Qarnayn legend: a combination of borrowed legend and scientific error. Muslims have various creative (yet unconvincing) solutions, but surely Allah could have worded it in a way that isn't so awkward for Muslims to defend and potential converts to accept, and which didn't look like a version of pre-Islamic poems that indisputably have the sun setting into a spring!

Can you elaborate on this a bit nj7. Do the Pre-Islamic poems about Dhu'l Qarnayn also have the sun setting in a spring? What other scientific errors are there in this story? Do you have references?
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #364 - July 23, 2012, 02:37 PM

Quote from: Tonyt on July 23, 2012, 01:09 PM
Can you elaborate on this a bit nj7. Do the Pre-Islamic poems about Dhu'l Qarnayn also have the sun setting in a spring? What other scientific errors are there in this story? Do you have references?

I do indeed Tony. I pasted pretty much all the details I have on the pre-Islamic and contemporary poems and Alexander Legend into my post for Klingschor's thread below (btw, Klingschor has just announced that he will soon be starting work on the series he mentions in the thread)

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16409.0

It's all from various parts of my article about the Dhu'l Qarnayn legend. There's also a shorter version on the site (its about 11 A4 pages).

I included 18:83-101 at the end of the article for reference, so you could use that to compare the stories. Since then I've added another minor post-Islamic source (see endnote 105). I've also since read that the poem in Tabari and Ishaq is also claimed to be by أمية بن أبي الصلت Ameya ibn Abi al-Salat (d.624 CE)

I found the Arabic for most of that poem in the first post at http://nadyelfikr.com/showthread.php?tid=1944

You might find sections 3.2 and 3.5 of my article interesting, especially the al-Tabari and other hadiths as an illustration of what early Muslims believed.

Muslims might speculate that the poems are all post-Islamic forgeries, derived from the early Muslim understanding of the Qur'anic passage, but surely an all-wise, perfect author could have forseen that happening too, and avoided giving grounds for us to be suspicious, let alone misleading the early Muslims.

I'd say the clear errors in the story (also in the poems) are that there are setting and rising places of the sun where people live, that the sun sets in a muddy (or in another variant, hot - so much for perfect preservation!) spring, and that there is a wall holding back Gog and Magog til the end of the world (see also 21:96).

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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #365 - July 23, 2012, 03:14 PM

Thanks nj7. Good work!

This is amazing stuff about Hassan ibn Thabit.

You say on your blog that he was a Pre-Islamic poet who was employed by Muhammad himself.

Was he employed as a scribe or something?

If so then this is just such a huge coincidence that his pre-Islamic poetry happens to be on the exact same subject as a part of the Koran.

Why is this guy not better known?

Is he mentioned in Ibn Is'haq or in any Hadiths? Where do we get our knowledge of this guy from?

How has this pre-Islamic poem of his about Dhu ’l-Qarnayn / Gog and Magog been preserved to this day? How can we be certain that he wrote it before or after the Koran was "revealed"?
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #366 - July 23, 2012, 03:55 PM

From what I've read on wikipedia and hadiths his job was to write poems praising and defending Muhammad, and satirising his enemies. He narrated lots of hadiths in Bukhari and they mention he wrote poems for Muhammad (you can search for Hassan Thabit in Bukhari and Muslim on searchtruth.com).

I've only read of the Thabit poem in particular in Nicholson's book, who cites Von Kremer for the Arabic. My ref #95 includes the full Von Kremer citation and a link to it in google books preview. I don't know where he got it from (maybe a German speaker can help?)

According to this thread which also quotes the poem in full, it is also somewhere in an Arabic book about Yemeni literature (Kremer's book is about Yemeni poems too)

لمحات من التاريخ والأدب اليمني by للكاتب عبدالله احمد الثور

Muslims would probably speculate that his poem is based on the Qur'an after Sura 18 was revealed, but that has its own problems as I mentioned above. This and the other poems and Alexander Legend really should become more widely known; I've only once seen the Arab poems used in an online discussion / debate of this story. Some of them are on the wikipedia page for "Alexander the Great in the Qur'an" at least. Klingschor mentions them in his article about Alexander on his blog, so hopefully they will feature in his upcoming youtube series.

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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #367 - July 23, 2012, 06:56 PM

What about my question? Was it bad or something?

:/
- ZOMG
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #368 - July 23, 2012, 09:25 PM

Quote from: moi on July 22, 2012, 09:14 PM
On Question 1, is Arabic the divine language?

http://www.muhammadanism.org/Margoliouth/early_mohammedanism/early_mohammedanism.pdf

Nope, I don't think that verse is meant to say that it is divine. But just means that Allah 'has' the Qur'an in a 'divine' language and has just translated it into Arabic for the people to understand.
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #369 - July 24, 2012, 04:45 PM

if Allah is all powerful, is he able to create somthing more powerful than himself?
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #370 - July 24, 2012, 09:34 PM

If it (allah) is all–powerful, then can it cause a pig to shit it out?
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #371 - September 25, 2012, 05:52 PM

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Why did Allah reveal his book in a language that was pretty much extinct a few hundred years after the Qu'ran?

Evidence? That is simply your claim. prove it.

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A language which even the 90% of Arabs can't understand now and 99.9% of the muslim population can't understand?

Actually most Arabs can with some work - as they all learn MSA at school - however Quran is over 1400 years old. Language changes. Obviously.

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Surely, Allah, being the all-knower would know this would occur and reveal his Qu'ran in another language, or perhaps send down an alternative Qu'ran along with the original classical Arabic one for the future generations.

Surely - he could reveal himself - and be done with it!

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This means that very early on in Islam's history people have had to depend on translations from others for them to truly attain the message of the Qu'ran. If the Qu'ran is very simple and easy to grasp it's message, as Allah claims, then how come only a tiny minority of the population today can only really understand it in it's original form?

Thousands learn it . . . where are your figures from? It takes about 9 months. It took me 6 months. 3 months analysing the book. There are thousands upon thousands of books about it.

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This also creates many problems and conflicts when the Qu'ran is translated into different language by various people as many of the translators have different views on what some words mean and hence the original message is sometimes lost.

That is why Quran is always spread with Arabic there and hasn't become like the Bible - that the translation becomes the Quran. As for meanings - anyone can learn the language and understand it at primary level.

- - -

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2). Why did Allah make many additions to the religion during the time of the Prophet Muhammad? It seems that Islam is a completely different religion compared to Judaism and Christianity, which Allah claims to have preceded Islam. So many new additions are made such as: prayers 5 times a day, Hajj, Umrah, Ramadan, new laws ect. Why did Allah wait for his final messenger to deliver all these new concepts into his religion and why not implement them from the start?

Question such as these depend on asker's position of whether they believe in a deity or not. As answering to a co-believer would mean something different than to a non-believer.
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #372 - September 28, 2012, 05:54 AM

@AminRiaz if you come back to play perhaps you can address some issues if worded a littles differently.

1) Why would the Creator of language be so limited that he could not reveal his message in many different languages?

2) You say that a person can learn "It takes about 9 months. It took me 6 months. 3 months analysing the book." "It" being Arabic. That is your opinion. Can you present any evidence that a language can be learned that quickly? Even in a total emersion situation a person would be hard pressed to learn a language in that short a time. You yourself even seem to agree by your later qualifying what could be learned by saying."As for meanings - anyone can learn the language and understand it at primary level." So what is it can a person truly understand the language in a very short time or can they not?

3) You say, "Thousands learn it " it being Arabic. That is very good. However Islam claims millions of followers so thousands learning Arabic falls way short of all Muslims having a clear understanding of the primary language that their religion is taught in. How can these people be held responsible for knowing what they believe if they don't have a even a primary let alone a deep understanding of the language? That is by your own accounting. what you've told me.

4) This answer of your "Question such as these depend on asker's position of whether they believe in a deity or not. As answering to a co-believer would mean something different than to a non-believer." is a cop out. It does not come anywhere near logically answering these questions 1)Why did Allah make many additions to the religion during the time of the Prophet Muhammad? 2)It seems that Islam is a completely different religion compared to Judaism and Christianity, which Allah claims to have preceded Islam. 3)So many new additions are made such as: prayers 5 times a day, Hajj, Umrah, Ramadan, new laws ect. 4)Why did Allah wait for his final messenger to deliver all these new concepts into his religion and why not implement them from the start? So why don't you try again.

I am really interested in your answering the questions.

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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #373 - October 13, 2012, 03:19 AM

I'm sure these have already been posted -

Do you personally believe 5 billion good moral non muslims deserve to burn in flames while you sit in heaven indifferent? Are you ok with that?

I like that one because it forces them to question their own moral standards. If they say "yes" then they are, well they're evil. If they answer "no" then you point out how they praise an immoral "god" who believes it is right.

Why would an "all powerful" "perfect" God NEED to be praised constantly? Is he insecure?

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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #374 - October 13, 2012, 03:59 AM

Belief is the death of intelligence
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #375 - October 13, 2012, 03:58 PM

^ lol What do you ask your friends/relatives to get them to question?

"In every religion there is love, yet love has no religion"

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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #376 - October 13, 2012, 04:30 PM

^

U can't get people to question. People have to question by themselves and people will only question if they are curious about how to world and society works.

In my opinion a life devoid of curiosity is not a life worth living.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #377 - October 13, 2012, 05:27 PM

you're right. I've used those online and I know it stumps them... they either ignore it and change the subject, insult me or of course "who are we to question God?"

"In every religion there is love, yet love has no religion"

"The intellectual runs away, afraid of drowning; the whole business of love is to drown in the sea." - Rumi
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #378 - October 13, 2012, 08:06 PM

Quote from: monstart on July 24, 2012, 04:45 PM
if Allah is all powerful, is he able to create somthing more powerful than himself?

Interesting question.
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #379 - October 13, 2012, 08:06 PM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on October 13, 2012, 04:30 PM
^

U can't get people to question. People have to question by themselves and people will only question if they are curious about how to world and society works.

In my opinion a life devoid of curiosity is not a life worth living.

Absolutely.
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #380 - October 13, 2012, 08:08 PM

If God knows everything, then God 'knows' who is going to hell for eternity. Then why would God created flawed beings?
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #381 - October 14, 2012, 07:56 PM

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@AminRiaz if you come back to play perhaps you can address some issues if worded a littles differently.

I did not understand what you meant by this sentence.

- - -

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1) Why would the Creator of language be so limited that he could not reveal his message in many different languages?

How does using one language to convey his message imply that the Creator is limited? But Quran did come to a specific bunch of people in a specific time.

- - -

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That is your opinion.

A little more than that - I have taught Classical Arabic grammar for several years. To grasp the fundamentals this is about the required time - also backed up by "opinions" of many other teachers - from all around the world. Many courses regarding Quranic Arabic are around 9-12 months and tend to heavily grammar based.

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Can you present any evidence that a language can be learned that quickly?

I am not talking about learning a complete language in the sense that you acquire a sufficient vocabulary set to be able to read and write at near native standard. . . but learning the grammar of the language and acquiring the vocabulary set of a specific religious register.

However - the grammar is very nearly the same as MSA - so a student would not need to learn that much extra to been able to read and write MSA. More or less it is acquiring vocab by reading, listening, watching TV, films and etc.

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How can these people be held responsible for knowing what they believe if they don't have a even a primary let alone a deep understanding of the language?

Obviously they cannot - hence they rely on others.

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is a cop out. It does not come anywhere near logically answering these questions

No - it is simply saying - I have insufficient data to answer your question. If i was going to answer it - best of my ability i would need to know more from the asker. Questions like these are NOT simple - few sentence questions.

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1)Why did Allah make many additions to the religion during the time of the Prophet Muhammad?

The whole story was played out within 23 years of his life. Its main purpose seems to be to leave a religion behind that had strength and was extensive. As compared to other relgions - Islam is pretty detailed and full-on. However - even then the main sources of Quran and Sunnah - later the Opinions of the Companions . Islamic laws, theology, philosophy and their underlying principles and etc took even longer.

- - -

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2)It seems that Islam is a completely different religion compared to Judaism and Christianity, which Allah claims to have preceded Islam.

Yes - in many respect it is. But it does share many similarities too. Islam claims the the other 2 were for a limited set of people and time.

- - -

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3)So many new additions are made such as: prayers 5 times a day, Hajj, Umrah, Ramadan, new laws ect.

Yes . . . but prayer has always been there - form has changed. Fasting was there in the older religion too.

- - -

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4)Why did Allah wait for his final messenger to deliver all these new concepts into his religion and why not implement them from the start?

All the basic concepts were already there from day one - Prayer, Pilgrimages, Fasting, laws around eating, purity, marriage, general morality and etc. Before Islam - societies were primitive in comparison - now given the rate and growth of technology & science - world is a different place. Hence laws and religion were to made to suit accordingly. Islam is the final message and expected to last until the end - and able to stand the test of time.

- - -

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So why don't you try again.

I am happy enough to answer. . . but why the over impertinence. There is no need for such lines.
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #382 - October 14, 2012, 07:59 PM

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why do some muslims try to "emmulate" the prophet by
marrying a girl sometimes 30 years younger, but you
never hear about muslim men trying to "emmulate"
the prophet by marrying a much older woman whose a
widow? Isnt that like a huge claim to fame for Mohammad?
that he was so compassionate he married Kadijah?

A bit like asking - why do you always hear about Muslims inciting violence and never peace. One makes the news and is senasationalist - the other isn't
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #383 - October 14, 2012, 08:00 PM

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If God knows everything, then God 'knows' who is going to hell for eternity. Then why would God created flawed beings?

Because he became bored of the Perfect Beings.
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #384 - October 14, 2012, 08:25 PM

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All the basic concepts were already there from day one - Prayer, Pilgrimages, Fasting, laws around eating, purity, marriage, general morality and etc. Before Islam - societies were primitive in comparison - now given the rate and growth of technology & science - world is a different place. Hence laws and religion were to made to suit accordingly. Islam is the final message and expected to last until the end - and able to stand the test of time.

considering islam is for all time and places and around 1400 years old, civilisations have varied and changed completely since islam's beginnings from native americans to ancient china etc, considering islam is compatible with a variety of completetly cultures and traditions, what was differant about the older prophets messages and the older civiliations? why didn't God just introduce islam from the start instead of sending loads of prophets and making everything such a mess?
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #385 - October 14, 2012, 09:38 PM

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Because he became bored of the Perfect Beings.

How can a perfect being become bored?

Which reminds me of Mr Twain.

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The Creator sat upon the throne, thinking. Behind him stretched the illimitable continent of heaven, steeped in a glory of light and color; before him rose the black night of Space, like a wall. His mighty bulk towered rugged and mountain-like into the zenith, and His divine head blazed there like a distant sun. At His feet stood three colossal figures, diminished to extinction, almost, by contrast -- archangels -- their heads level with His ankle-bone.

When the Creator had finished thinking, He said, "I have thought. Behold!"

He lifted His hand, and from it burst a fountain-spray of fire, a million stupendous suns, which clove the blackness and soared, away and away and away, diminishing in magnitude and intensity as they pierced the far frontiers of Space, until at last they were but as diamond nailheads sparkling under the domed vast roof of the universe.

At the end of an hour the Grand Council was dismissed.

They left the Presence impressed and thoughtful, and retired to a private place, where they might talk with freedom. None of the three seemed to want to begin, though all wanted somebody to do it. Each was burning to discuss the great event, but would prefer not to commit himself till he should know how the others regarded it. So there was some aimless and halting conversation about matters of no consequence, and this dragged tediously along, arriving nowhere, until at last the archangel Satan gathered his courage together -- of which he had a very good supply -- and broke ground. He said: "We know what we are here to talk about, my lords, and we may as well put pretense aside, and begin. If this is the opinion of the Council -- "

"It is, it is!" said Gabriel and Michael, gratefully interrupting.

"Very well, then, let us proceed. We have witnessed a wonderful thing; as to that, we are necessarily agreed. As to the value of it -- if it has any -- that is a matter which does not personally concern us. We can have as many opinions about it as we like, and that is our limit. We have no vote. I think Space was well enough, just as it was, and useful, too. Cold and dark -- a restful place, now and then, after a season of the overdelicate climate and trying splendors of heaven. But these are details of no considerable moment; the new feature, the immense feature, is -- what, gentlemen?"

"The invention and introduction of automatic, unsupervised, self-regulating law for the government of those myriads of whirling and racing suns and worlds!"

...

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/twainlfe.htm

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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #386 - October 15, 2012, 06:49 PM

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How can a perfect being become bored?

I take it you noticed the "Perfect Being" was NOT a reference to God.

In Islam - there is not all that much known about God - nor do Muslims claim to know much about God. Imagine if there is a God - who created the whole universe. From a human perspective it simply doesn't matter what the nature of God is. He can do and be anything.
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #387 - October 15, 2012, 06:53 PM

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considering islam is for all time and places and around 1400 years old, civilisations have varied and changed completely since islam's beginnings from native americans to ancient china etc, considering islam is compatible with a variety of completetly cultures and traditions, what was differant about the older prophets messages and the older civiliations? why didn't God just introduce islam from the start instead of sending loads of prophets and making everything such a mess?

How is everything a mess? From what angle? How does one know what God's perspective is. Maybe God enjoyed sending all those Prophet's and seeing how belief worked out.

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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #388 - October 15, 2012, 07:14 PM

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 15, 2012, 06:49 PM
there is not all that much known about God

other than all those qualities he says in the Quran?

considering there are more people following the old corrupt message than the new current one, there are places on the planet where nobody knows what islam is and only around 1 in 5 people on the planet identify themselves as following the right path, the situation is a mess. i guess you must be right and he likes people following the wrong message and going to hell.

you are right we cannot understand God, all we can use is what he has given us (if he exists) and that is logic and reason, which is where all religions fail.
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Re: Hundreds of Questions to Ask a Muslim
Reply #389 - October 16, 2012, 04:06 PM

You come back AminRiaz. There are so many over the years that just make their claim and never come back for the followup conversation. That is such a frustration. That is what I meant by if you comeback to play. You have made some attempt to clear things up. You're spreading yourself kind of thin as it is at first when trying to talk to everyone. So many ideas going every which way.

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 15, 2012, 06:53 PM
How is everything a mess? From what angle? How does one know what God's perspective is. Maybe God enjoyed sending all those Prophet's and seeing how belief worked out.

Is there nothing in your belief about Allah that would lead to think he would give information to his people that he wants them to feel at peace, comforted and have clear direction by means of the prophets he sent? It to me seems like a rather odd idea that a God would send prophets for the purpose of just seeing how people act when they are confessed. You say very little is known about Allah however there are the 99 names of Allah and this concept of observing people in confusion seems to go against most if not all of them.

Quote from: AminRiaz on October 15, 2012, 06:49 PM
I take it you noticed the "Perfect Being" was NOT a reference to God.

In Islam - there is not all that much known about God - nor do Muslims claim to know much about God. Imagine if there is a God - who created the whole universe. From a human perspective it simply doesn't matter what the nature of God is. He can do and be anything.

Indeed you were refer to the perfect creation that was overtaken by temptation and lost that position as a "Perfect Being" or perhaps more correctly perfect beings because both Adam and Eve were perfect at their creation according to the account. Be that as it may. Anyone considering the account would also assume that a believer would think of the. Creator as prefect as well. Would they not? So was it not you AminRiaz that said "Because he became bore with the Perfect Being". So if you didn't mean that Allah was bored what did you mean?

I'm out of time for now.

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