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 Topic: The Story of Sulayman

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #210 - February 09, 2010, 05:49 PM
    debunker, I think what amazes me is the fact he wrote the tafsir 700 years after the Quran was revealed to the Prophet - and people still think it would be an accurate tafsir - I really don't understand why it's held in such high regard.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #211 - February 09, 2010, 05:57 PM
    Its because questions like yours and ours have only really started being asked in this generation.
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #212 - February 09, 2010, 05:58 PM
    Hey Infidel,

    I don't accept evolution in its current form although I am open to the fact it might be correct:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8380.192

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8380.240

    I know there are some scientific problems with the Adam and Eve story but I think the story is meant to be literal.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #213 - February 09, 2010, 06:00 PM
    @ Hassan

    Quote
    But it was more than this, Debunker - as you yourself said he was a warrior king - the Qur'an confirms he had a huge army powerful enough to completely overwhelm other mighty kingdoms. We know that he gained the subjugation of the Kingdom of Sheba in Yemen. We know that the Jinn did a lot of building for him and he had an amazing "lofty" palace.

    Yet there is no trace of all this?

    Do you not admit that this is - at the very least - a bit odd?


    Ok so you're saying where is the archelogical evidence of his territorial kingdom (which must have been AT LEAST quite big)?

    Now, Solomon subjugating the kingdom of Sheba does not mean he wiped out... that kingdom was simply a vassal state.

    Again, I know there is no evidence... but what evidence do you expect from a STRICTLY monotheistic king? His picture carved on stones? Monuments bearing his image?

    That being said I do agree with you that it IS odd that they didn't find a big sprawling palace somehwhere in Israel/Palestine... at least one such palace even if we didn't find any carvings of his name anywhere... one such palace would be a good evidence.

    Do you want me to *speculate*, as to why no such palace was found?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #214 - February 09, 2010, 06:03 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 09, 2010, 06:00 PM
    Again, I know there is no evidence... but what evidence do you expect from a STRICTLY monotheistic king? His picture carved on stones? Monuments bearing his image?


    Thats ridiculous. Being a monotheistic king somehow means you have no mention in the historical record? You do realise kings do more than just carve pictures of themselves. They engage in battles, wars, build structures, make laws and have historians take account of their deeds. These acts almost always leave behind at least a faint trace. Solomon left behind pretty much none.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #215 - February 09, 2010, 06:04 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 09, 2010, 05:49 PM
    debunker, I think what amazes me is the fact he wrote the tafsir 700 years after the Quran was revealed to the Prophet - and people still think it would be an accurate tafsir - I really don't understand why it's held in such high regard.


    The amusing thing is: His Tafsir is very contradictory... for example, who are the men of the Heights? It's angels... no, it's prophets... no, it;s people waiting to be judged, no... etc, etc... amazing dude.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #216 - February 09, 2010, 06:06 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 09, 2010, 05:49 PM
    debunker, I think what amazes me is the fact he wrote the tafsir 700 years after the Quran was revealed to the Prophet - and people still think it would be an accurate tafsir - I really don't understand why it's held in such high regard.

    One could argue that the Qur'an also was 'collected' a few decades after Mohammed's death. But yeah 700 years is much more and is something written as an interpretation which is bound to be riddled with mistakes and personal biases. I bet all of those who consider tafseers as reliable would cringe once they know that (at least) one of the tafseers (not sure which) says the Earth is flat and it is heretical to say otherwise.  Cheesy

    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 09, 2010, 05:58 PM
    Hey Infidel,

    I don't accept evolution in its current form although I am open to the fact it might be correct:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8380.192

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8380.240

    I know there are some scientific problems with the Adam and Eve story but I think the story is meant to be literal.

    Oh, I remember now. I think I confused your stance with debunker's. Thanks for clarification.

    So I guess I shift the question to debunker
    Quote
    BTW, I remember you actually consider evolution to have happened, right? If so do you consider the Adam & Eve story a metaphor only or something? If so, why not apply the same thing to Sulaiman's story?

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #217 - February 09, 2010, 06:06 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 09, 2010, 06:00 PM
    @ Hassan

    Ok so you're saying where is the archelogical evidence of his territorial kingdom (which must have been AT LEAST quite big)?

    Now, Solomon subjugating the kingdom of Sheba does not mean he wiped out... that kingdom was simply a vassal state.

    Again, I know there is no evidence... but what evidence do you expect from a STRICTLY monotheistic king? His picture carved on stones? Monuments bearing his image?

    That being said I do agree with you that it IS odd that they didn't find a big sprawling palace somehwhere in Israel/Palestine... at least one such palace even if we didn't find any carvings of his name anywhere... one such palace would be a good evidence.

    Do you want me to *speculate*, as to why no such palace was found?


    Thanks for your reply - as always you gain my respect with your honesty. Yes, I'd be interested to hear why you think no palace was found (rest assured I'm not out to catch you out - just interested and curious.)
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #218 - February 09, 2010, 06:06 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on February 09, 2010, 06:03 PM
    Thats ridiculous. Being a monotheistic king somehow means you have no mention in the historical record? You do realise kings do more than just carve pictures of themselves. They engage in battles, wars, build structures, make laws and have historians take account of their deeds. These acts almost always leave behind at least a faint trace. Solomon left behind pretty much none.


    Then perhaps these are yet to be discovered in the multilayered city of Jerusalem.

    Besides, have you ever heard of the Battle of Tabuk? There is absolutely no mention of it in the Byzantine records... so according to you, the events of Tabuk didn't take place.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #219 - February 09, 2010, 06:08 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 09, 2010, 06:06 PM
    Thanks for your reply - as always you gain my respect with your honesty. Yes, I'd be interested to hear why you think no palace was found (rest assured I'm not out to catch you out - just interested and curious.)


    Speculate? only if you promise me other won't laugh at me  lipsrsealed
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #220 - February 09, 2010, 06:10 PM
    btw the Israelis have spent a huge amount of time and effort to try and find even the slightest trace of Solomon's Kingdom and even one of their most well-respected archeologists admits they've found nothing.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #221 - February 09, 2010, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 09, 2010, 06:08 PM
    Speculate? only if you promise me other won't laugh at me  lipsrsealed


    I don't mock individuals (unless they ask for it).

    Besides, you should hear some of the things the Tailor comes out with, yet I have the greatest respect for him. (even if I do think he's a bit daft  grin12)
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #222 - February 09, 2010, 06:24 PM
    @ Hassan

    Quote
    btw the Israelis have spent a huge amount of time and effort to try and find even the slightest trace of Solomon's Kingdom and even one of their most well-respected archeologists admits they've found nothing.


    Well, here's one *SPECULATION*:

    Solomon did ask God no one would have his reign/kingdom after him. Of course, no man has reign over beasts (not like Solomon did), no man has power over the elements nor the demons. Likewise I would speculate that no man inherited any of Solomon's palaces and treasures... God wouldn't let anyone have them... these must have vanished after Solomon's burial in an eye blink, much like how the Queen's mighty throne was transferred from yemen to Palestine in an eye blink.

    Again, Solomon's request from God was that no one would have his kingdom and no one did.... his treasures... his palaces gone in an eyeblink.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #223 - February 09, 2010, 06:27 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 09, 2010, 06:24 PM
    @ Hassan

    Well, here's one *SPECULATION*:

    Solomon did ask God no one would have his reign/kingdom after him. Of course, no man has reign over beasts (not like Solomon did), no man has power over the elements nor the demons. Likewise I would speculate that no man inherited any of Solomon's palaces and treasures... God wouldn't let anyone have them... these must have vanished after Solomon's burial in an eye blink, much like how the Queen's mighty throne was transferred from yemen to Palestine in an eye blink.


    That's not speculation. Thats making stuff up to support your pre-existing beliefs. Grin
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #224 - February 09, 2010, 06:29 PM
    making things up is to claim that's what actually happened... I don't know what happened... I only had a speculation dervied from a supernatural story I believe in.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #225 - February 09, 2010, 06:30 PM
     
    Quote from: debunker on February 09, 2010, 06:24 PM
    @ Hassan

    Well, here's one *SPECULATION*:

    Solomon did ask God no one would have his reign/kingdom after him. Of course, no man has reign over beasts (not like Solomon did), no man has power over the elements nor the demons. Likewise I would speculate that no man inherited any of Solomon's palaces and treasures... God wouldn't let anyone have them... these must have vanished after Solomon's burial in an eye blink, much like how the Queen's mighty throne was transferred from yemen to Palestine in an eye blink.

    lipsrsealed
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #226 - February 09, 2010, 06:33 PM
    ok guys... I have a little battle with AhmedBahgat at FFI.. I need to go crush him and come back to talk to you later.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #227 - February 09, 2010, 06:34 PM
    ArmouredBaguette, that fool - have you got the link?
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #228 - February 09, 2010, 06:35 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 09, 2010, 06:24 PM
    @ Hassan

    Well, here's one *SPECULATION*:

    Solomon did ask God no one would have his reign/kingdom after him. Of course, no man has reign over beasts (not like Solomon did), no man has power over the elements nor the demons. Likewise I would speculate that no man inherited any of Solomon's palaces and treasures... God wouldn't let anyone have them... these must have vanished after Solomon's burial in an eye blink, much like how the Queen's mighty throne was transferred from yemen to Palestine in an eye blink.

    Again, Solomon's request from God was that no one would have his kingdom and no one did.... his treasures... his palaces gone in an eyeblink.


    Thanks - fair enough - if one can believe the other miracles (animals that can think and communicate like humans, thrones materialised in a blink of an eye etc...) then it is not a huge leap to imagine that God could make the palace and other treasures/monuments just disappear in a blink of an eye.

    One more question. Presumably this warrior King with his huge army and rows of soldiers, Jinn and animals must have spent a lot of time fighting other Kingdoms. Why is there no mention in the accounts of neighbouring Kingdoms of great battles with an amazing powerful King who had magic forces in his control? And I'm not trying to be funny here - but did God make all reference to him in the writings of neighbouring Kingdoms disappear too?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #229 - February 09, 2010, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 09, 2010, 06:29 PM
    I only had a speculation dervied from a supernatural story I believe in.


    And don't you think that's ridiculous? Regardless of your religious beliefs, to try to *force* yourself to believe in a nonsense story when all evidence points the other way. Can't you see you're demonstrating to us precisely why we left religion and Islam to begin with?

    Here's a better *explaination* instead of speculation:

    Muhammad wrote the Quran. Muhammad had deep respect and awe of the Jewish religion. Muhammad had so much respect for them that he copy pasted entire concepts whole-sale from them.. and also copied the whole Solomon story trusting the Jewish source to be accurate. Muhammad embellished the story with bits of his own creative thought and voila.. Soloman sura!

    Just face the facts, the Solomon story reveals quite clearly that the Quran was written by a man with limited knowledge and limited imagination of what humans can achieve. As Hassan beautifully put it in his video.  Smiley
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #230 - February 09, 2010, 06:42 PM
    Oops where am I??   my goodness, this thread is running fast.,  Well let me start with Hasan

    Quote
    Thanks - fair enough - if one can believe the other miracles (animals that can think and communicate like humans, thrones materialised in a blink of an eye etc...) then it is not a huge leap to imagine that God could make the palace and other treasures/monuments just disappear in a blink of an eye.

    One more question. Presumably this warrior King with his huge army and rows of soldiers, Jinn and animals must have spent a lot of time fighting other Kingdoms. Why is there no mention in the accounts of neighbouring Kingdoms of great battles with an amazing powerful King who had magic forces in his control?

     Hi.. Hasan., You are only asking questions  about Solomon without airing your own opinions., I wonder whether you are trying to argue that Solomon of Quran and Old testament did not exist  but a just story??

    with best regards
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #231 - February 09, 2010, 06:43 PM
    Hass - you need to be more open minded.  

    Seems like Allah was concerned with permanently wiping the world free of any traces of evidence of his existance, which he did perfectly. This in itself should be considered as proof of his existance.
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #232 - February 09, 2010, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 09, 2010, 06:42 PM
    Oops where am I??   my goodness, this thread is running fast.,  Well let me start with Hasan
     Hi.. Hasan., You are only asking questions  about Solomon without airing your own opinions., I wonder whether you are trying to argue that Solomon of Quran and Old testament did not exist  but a just story??

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Perhaps watching the video by Hassan which started this whole thread is a good idea.

    BTW Hassan, I've been meaning to ask this for a long time, is your name حسن or حسّان ?
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #233 - February 09, 2010, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 09, 2010, 06:43 PM
    Seems like Allah was concerned with permanently wiping the world free of any traces of evidence of his existance, which he did perfectly. This in itself should be considered as proof of his existance.


     Cheesy
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #234 - February 09, 2010, 06:58 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 09, 2010, 06:29 PM
    making things up is to claim that's what actually happened... I don't know what happened... I only had a speculation dervied from a supernatural story I believe in.


    Quite true, Debunker, though even your conclusion that "the Kingdom the like of which will never be granted to anyone after him" - was only a Kingdom of Jinn and talking animals and wind etc... and NOT territorial - is in fact also speculation - is it not?

    It is no more or less valid than the speculation that it was a huge territorial Kingdom.

    In fact I would say that the assumption it was a huge territorial Kingdom is a better assumption to make based on the way the Qur'an describes it - and the fact that he had such a huge army that he regularly reviewed and went out marching with.

    This seems to suggests they conquered territory?

    Surely they were not just playing war games in the desert?

    It even says in the Qur'an that Sulayman threatened to march all the way to Sheba in Yemen with a huge army to overwhelm and destroy her kingdom. (a long way to go for him - and her! She did after all decide to go all that way to submit to him - again which indicates he had some great reputation that had spread as far as Yemen.)

    To me - and to many others down the centuries - this sounds like he had a huge territorial kingdom - as well as a magical one.

    At the very least your assumption it was not is no more valid than the assumption it was - wouldn't you agree?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #235 - February 09, 2010, 07:00 PM
    Quote from: Infidel on February 09, 2010, 06:45 PM
    Perhaps watching the video by Hassan which started this whole thread is a good idea.

    BTW Hassan, I've been meaning to ask this for a long time, is your name حسن or حسّان ?


    حسن  Smiley
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #236 - February 09, 2010, 07:03 PM
    Infidel
    Quote
    Perhaps watching the video by Hassan which started this whole thread is a good idea.

    dear Infidel, I am not even sure why Hassan started the thread with that Video without any of his own opinions., But that video is for Muslim Children dear Infidel.,

    Off course I know he is questioning religions, scriptures  and Islam in particular for a long time, But I think Hassan is hiding his own opinions on Solomon., In fact somewhere he wrote., it appears he doesn't even believe  Muhammad existed..

    with best regards
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #237 - February 09, 2010, 07:04 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 09, 2010, 07:03 PM
    Infidel dear Infidel, I am not even sure why Hassan started the thread with that Video without any of his own opinions., But that video is for Muslim Children dear Infidel.,

    Off course I know he is questioning religions, scriptures  and Islam in particular for a long time, But I think Hassan is hiding his own opinions on Solomon., In fact somewhere he wrote., it appears he doesn't even believe  Muhammad existed..

    with best regards
    yeezevee


    What? Its quite clear Hassan does not believe in the Quran and does not think there is any credibility to the story of Solomon as historical fact. What more is there for him to say?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #238 - February 09, 2010, 07:05 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 09, 2010, 06:33 PM
    ok guys... I have a little battle with AhmedBahgat at FFI.. I need to go crush him and come back to talk to you later.


    AhmedBahgad!?!

    Where??? LINK!!! I love that guy!!!
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #239 - February 09, 2010, 07:10 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 09, 2010, 07:03 PM
    Infidel dear Infidel, I am not even sure why Hassan started the thread with that Video without any of his own opinions., But that video is for Muslim Children dear Infidel.,

    Off course I know he is questioning religions, scriptures  and Islam in particular for a long time, But I think Hassan is hiding his own opinions on Solomon., In fact somewhere he wrote., it appears he doesn't even believe  Muhammad existed..

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Yeezevee - Hassan is an apostate and an exmuslim
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