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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Story of Sulayman

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #240 - February 09, 2010, 07:12 PM

    Quote
    Quote
    What? Its quite clear Hassan does not believe in the Quran and does not think there is any credibility to the story of Solomon as historical fact. What more is there for him to say?

    Quote
    Where??? LINK!!! I love that guy!!!


    here is that link dear Iblis   where foul flies and hits the fan..
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=94981#p94981

    Well I understand Hassan's posts   dear Iblis., But he is NOT coming out  forthrightly ., Instead of that children video., he could have started with verses from Quran +OT and write few sentences., saying "this is silly story writers of Quran Imported from stories of OT"

    May be he is trying to educate the readers arguing them to think themselves, instead of he guiding the subject..

    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #241 - February 09, 2010, 07:15 PM

    Quote
    Yeezevee - Hassan is an apostate and an exmuslim

    I know Hassan as an apostate  and follows his own  Atheistic Agnostic ..whatever .. for a  long time dear IsLame , In fact before this forum started ..

    Atheistic Agnostic ... Atheistic Agnostic .. what the hell is that? only Hassan can help me..loll

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #242 - February 09, 2010, 07:15 PM

    LOL Thanks for the link to Ahmad's ranting. That guy is hella crazy. Cheesy

    And maybe Hassan wishes to dissect the Quran with class and sensibility. Hassan's MO is to lay out the facts and let the viewers decide. Hassan, quite refreshingly, does not engage in useless "my opinion, me right!" theatrics.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #243 - February 09, 2010, 07:17 PM

    Infidel dear Infidel, I am not even sure why Hassan started the thread with that Video without any of his own opinions., But that video is for Muslim Children dear Infidel.,

    Off course I know he is questioning religions, scriptures  and Islam in particular for a long time, But I think Hassan is hiding his own opinions on Solomon., In fact somewhere he wrote., it appears he doesn't even believe  Muhammad existed..

    with best regards
    yeezevee


    Hi Yeezevee,

    I have never said Muhammad never existed.

    Forgive me but I will not be replying to you again - not because I have any ill-feeling towards you, but ever since I have known you on FFI I find the things you say a little confusing and muddled.

    No doubt it is just a communication problem due to the fact English is not your first language, but my time is limited and so would rather not spend it explaining things that should be obvious or that may just be misunderstood again.

    Best wishes,

    Hassan.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #244 - February 09, 2010, 07:20 PM

    Quote
    Hassan's MO is to lay out the facts and let the viewers decide. Hassan, quite refreshingly, does not engage in useless "my opinion, me right!" theatrics.

    well you think that way., me thinks different way and Muslims Think he is Sneaky and dangerous to Islam..

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #245 - February 09, 2010, 07:21 PM

    Yep, Muslims do think that. Because Hassan does not immediately repulse his Muslim viewers by going "SO THE QURAN IS BS, LOLOL". That's something I would do, but it ain't Hassan's style.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #246 - February 09, 2010, 07:24 PM

    Quote
    Hi Yeezevee,

    I have never said Muhammad never existed.

    Forgive me but I will not be replying to you again -

    .. No.. no question of forgiving doesn't  arise when you don't even read/understand what I am saying and why I am saying dear Hassan., it is perfectly fine that you will not reply or  read any of my posts. That is your birth right  dear Hasssan.. every body's  ..lol..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #247 - February 09, 2010, 09:34 PM

    I can't figure out whether CEMB is against Political Islam or just Islam in general.


    The Council of Ex-Muslims is only against Political Islam - and keeping religion a private matter. That is my position too. I have no quarrel with ordinary Muslims - though I reserve the right to criticise Islam and try and make people think - just as Muslims try to make me think. There is no harm in that Abu Yunus and you shouldn't feel threatened by that. It is not a personal attack on you. I have absolutely nothing against you or ordinary Muslims personally - and I'm sure that's the position of everyone here - who - as IsLame said - all have Muslim families of their own!
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #248 - February 09, 2010, 09:49 PM

    So you've met God before Hassan? You're smart enough to know God's mind and reasons? You're smart enough to know His intentions? Or is it more likely that we are incapable of understanding the God that created the entire universe? Shouldn't we show a little more humbleness and humility?


    There are some things in Islam I like, Abu Yunus - and one example is the hadith that says:

    "I am as my servant thinks of me."

    If there is a God I cannot but think he is anything other than a truly Loving and Merciful God.

    I find it impossible to believe in the Sadistic Monster in the Qur'an or the Bible.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #249 - February 09, 2010, 10:07 PM

    Hassan, you know I support your right to criticize Islam and even the Quran in any manner that you wish - this has always been my position - I have never ever said anything that might indicate otherwise. And I have never told anyone on here to stop criticizing the Islam no matter what has been said. This is why I have always responded to you guys in a polite manner. What I was trying to get at is shoudn't tolerance work both ways? For example you have made comments earlier in the thread such as ''just makes me depressed and wish that we could stop filling the minds of children with this nonsense'' and in one of you videos you state ''we should leave religion behind and come into the 21st century''. You know I like you but this doesn't seem like a very tolerant attitude to me and this was the issue I was trying to raise.

    You can criticize Islam all you like - but do you have the right to tell peaceful Muslim parents what they should/shouldn't teach their children? Do you have the right to tell peaceful Muslims whether they should practice their religion or not?

    Of course as I said earlier you can go on saying things like these - I have no problem with this - I just wanted to know if you felt these were tolerant views on your side especially if CEMB is meant to only be against political Islam.

    Best wishes

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #250 - February 09, 2010, 10:18 PM

    ok guys... I have a little battle with AhmedBahgat at FFI.. I need to go crush him and come back to talk to you later.

    I wasn't aware that FFI has become such a cesspit, calling you "filthy traitor" and "fake Muslim". LOL! They sure seem to know how to debate in a polite and respectful manner.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #251 - February 09, 2010, 10:18 PM

    Quote from: Abuyounus2
    So you've met God before Hassan? You're smart enough to know God's mind and reasons? You're smart enough to know His intentions? Or is it more likely that we are incapable of understanding the God that created the entire universe? Shouldn't we show a little more humbleness and humility?

    Yes, I think the scripture is supposed to be Gods way of explaining his world order and his intentions/expectations.  As we contend its man-made then we expose its flaws in its man-made logic.

    This we do not by supposing Allahs intentions, but repeating the claims made in this book (as Hassan points out).  All this sounds nice and is used to make arguments of an all loving God by muslims, but then when the other side of the coin is shown we get the usual "how do we know of his intentions".

    I am sure you would not have relied on this tried & tested this technique, if you had a better answer to give.

    Both you guys are intelligent and its a shame you waste it in defending a tale that makes as much sense as Hansel & Gretel.  Your defences that make complete sense to you from believers rose-tinted perspective, are met with a hazy critical eye.

    Like we said, you could do that hundreds of years ago where it would be hard to find an underground group like this and would only be met by nodding dogs, now not only logic works but it has to be reasonable logic.

    P.S AbuY- did we get your explanation as to why we have no evidence of the presence of King Solomon?

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #252 - February 09, 2010, 10:22 PM

    Hassan, you know I support your right to criticize Islam and even the Quran in any manner that you wish - this has always been my position - I have never ever said anything that might indicate otherwise. And I have never told anyone on here to stop criticizing the Islam no matter what has been said. This is why I have always responded to you guys in a polite manner. What I was trying to get at is shoudn't tolerance work both ways? For example you have made comments earlier in the thread such as ''just makes me depressed and wish that we could stop filling the minds of children with this nonsense'' and in one of you videos you state ''we should leave religion behind and come into the 21st century''. You know I like you but this doesn't seem like a very tolerant attitude to me and this was the issue I was trying to raise.

    Of course as I said earlier you can go on saying things like these - I have no problem with this - I just wanted to know if you felt these were tolerant views on your side especially if CEMB is meant to only be against political Islam.

    Best wishes


    I would be lying if I didn't say that it saddens me that we fill children's heads with - what I consider - fairytales. Especially when these fairytales lead some people to behave in a very harmful, negative and divisive way - apart from the mental burden it leave some with. (and don't forget I spent a lot of time teaching at an Islamic School - so maybe I feel it acutely.)

    Nor do I see why I should pretend that I don't wish that humanity could move beyond what I consider to be divisive and harmful myths. I am only being honest about what I think. Would you rather I lie?

    I am not calling for the eradication for Islam - just as you (I hope) are not calling for the eradication of other people's beliefs when you claim that Islam is the truth and other beliefs false.

    This is just free expression, Abu Yunus. God help us if we cannot express ourselves freely - and honestly.

    I know the world will never be perfect and I am not on a mission to impose or create any sort of utopian ideal (unlike many of your fellow Muslims) - but I do hope we can make the world at least a little better - but at the same time keep the diversity of beliefs and the fact that our beliefs are challenged by others. The last thing I want is a world where we all think, behave and believe the same. That would not be a human world. And for better or worse, I like the way humans are - with all their weaknesses and stupidity - we are also very lovable. [/ramble]  grin12
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #253 - February 09, 2010, 10:28 PM

    Islame - I agree with you. I think 99% of debates could be settled with ''you have faith but I don't'' or vice versa. Although I guess that would be a bit boring.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #254 - February 09, 2010, 10:35 PM

    You can criticize Islam all you like - but do you have the right to tell peaceful Muslim parents what they should/shouldn't teach their children?

    Do these children have a right to grow up free from supremacist Bronze Age nonsense that can scar them for life and effectively make their own choice when they are ready?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #255 - February 09, 2010, 10:39 PM

    I would be lying if I didn't say that it saddens me that we fill children's heads with - what I consider - fairytales. Especially when these fairytales lead some people to behave in a very harmful, negative and divisive way - apart from the mental burden it leave some with. (and don't forget I spent a lot of time teaching at an Islamic School - so maybe I feel it acutely.)

    Nor do I see why I should pretend that I don't wish that humanity could move beyond what I consider to be divisive and harmful myths. I am only being honest about what I think. Would you rather I lie?

    I am not calling for the eradication for Islam - just as you (I hope) are not calling for the eradication of other people's beliefs when you claim that Islam is the truth and other beliefs false.

    This is just free expression, Abu Yunus. God help us if we cannot express ourselves freely - and honestly.

    I know the world will never be perfect and I am not on a mission to impose or create any sort of utopian ideal (unlike many of your fellow Muslims) - but I do hope we can make the world at least a little better - but at the same time keep the diversity of beliefs and the fact that our beliefs are challenged by others. The last thing I want is a world where we all think, behave and believe the same. That would not be a human world. And for better or worse, I like the way humans are - with all their weaknesses and stupidity - we are also very lovable. [/ramble]  grin12



    Hassan, that's fair enough by me. Thanks for clarifying your position  Smiley

    I was honestly worried by a few of the comments you made but am willing to accept that I misunderstood your intentions.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #256 - February 09, 2010, 10:44 PM

    AbuY - I think the crux of this is that we believe Islam at its soul to be a bad religion.  Of course we believe with a 1 tblsp of interpretation, 1 tblsp of sophistry,  5 tblsp of cognitive dissonance, 10 tblsp of wishful thinking and 1cup of masala Islam can be neutered into something less harmful, like the Islam you & Debunker follow.

    However this is not Islam to us, only to the both of you.  Its no longer a casserole, but its an altogether different dish with your own personal flavours.

    When we talk of Islam, most of us are talking about the real Islam that has not been tampared with cultural interprations & acrobatics, we believe is literal and we accept as it is. Warts, Vs 4:34, Mo's sanctioning for extra wives and all.

    You may think you are doing your kids a favour with it.  I dont, and I very much doubt Hassan does or he would be preaching it to them too.  

    You may have a sanitised interpretation that is agreable with the West's humanistic enlightenment, I just hope your kids will grow up and dont start seeing it for what it really is saying according to most scholars.  
    That I am sure, you would fear also and thats where I stand too.

    So in short I have no problem with most of your beliefs, but unless you can prove to me that that is what is true Islam and what most madrassa's/scholars/muslims are preaching then I cant accept it as Islam.  tbh you interpretation as far as I am concerned is not Islam but goes under the bracket of "Abuyounus2 beliefs"

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #257 - February 10, 2010, 02:52 AM

    @ Hassan

    Quote
    One more question. Presumably this warrior King with his huge army and rows of soldiers, Jinn and animals must have spent a lot of time fighting other Kingdoms. Why is there no mention in the accounts of neighbouring Kingdoms of great battles with an amazing powerful King who had magic forces in his control? And I'm not trying to be funny here - but did God make all reference to him in the writings of neighbouring Kingdoms disappear too?


    OK, here's my *SPECULATION*:

    If other mighty nations were, by force, made into vassal states under the command of a King they hated and this king ruled for a very brief time in history, say 20 years, why should they keep any records of this humiliation of their nations? It's an ugly memory they could have felt urged to forget...

    It's the same type of *SPECULATION* I use to try to understand the complete lack of any evidence of an Exodus... why would the Egyptians be excited about recording their *humiliation* at the hands of the God of their LOWLY SLAVES?

    When Ramses went to battle with the Hittites, he came back bragging about his *decisive victory*... that's according to the Egyptian records... we learn the truth only from Hittite records: no one won. But to Ramses, his failure to crush the Hittites in that battle was so humiliating he even boasted about his victory.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kadesh

    Quote
    Quite true, Debunker, though even your conclusion that "the Kingdom the like of which will never be granted to anyone after him" - was only a Kingdom of Jinn and talking animals and wind etc... and NOT territorial - is in fact also speculation - is it not?


    What I said was: He could have had a big territorial kingdom, but that's NOT what made his kingdom *special* in the sense that no one else can have!

    Now, the verses I shown you before:

    Surah Sad (#38)

     قَالَ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَهَبْ لِي مُلْكًا لَّا يَنبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ مِّنْ بَعْدِي إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْوَهَّابُ ?35? فَسَخَّرْنَا لَهُ الرِّيحَ تَجْرِي بِأَمْرِهِ رُخَاء حَيْثُ أَصَابَ ?36?  وَالشَّيَاطِينَ كُلَّ بَنَّاء وَغَوَّاصٍ ?37?  وَآخَرِينَ مُقَرَّنِينَ فِي الْأَصْفَادِ ?38?  هَذَا عَطَاؤُنَا فَامْنُنْ أَوْ أَمْسِكْ بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ ?39?  وَإِنَّ لَهُ عِندَنَا لَزُلْفَى وَحُسْنَ مَآبٍ ?40?


    Solomon's "special" reign, that no one could ever have was his magical reign over the demons and the elements as the verses above clearly show...

    Quote
    It is no more or less valid than the speculation that it was a huge territorial Kingdom.

    In fact I would say that the assumption it was a huge territorial Kingdom is a better assumption to make based on the way the Qur'an describes it - and the fact that he had such a huge army that he regularly reviewed and went out marching with.

    This seems to suggests they conquered territory?

    Surely they were not just playing war games in the desert?


    The large territorial kingdom can indeed be concluded from the fact that he had a powerful army. However, like Yemen, the other nations could have been vassal states as well. And its size is NOT what made his kingdom special that no one could have after him.

    In fact, the story of the hoopoe bird tells us that even mighty Solomon with his army of demons, without God's will, didn't even know that there was a mighty kingdom in Yemen... he had to wait for a little bird to tell him about it and the bird even bragged about it that he knew what Solomon didn't!

    I would speculate that Solomon's kingdom was limited to Egypt, the Levant, Babylon and later Yemen. Basically, the areas where God wanted him to be a prophet King... far away nations could have had their own prophets.

    But I would think he had legendry amounts of treasures and lived in a magical palace, no one could ever have after him. That's because it's powerful demons who built his palace and monuments... it's demons who brought him treasures... so his palace/monuments/treasures were, in a sense, magical and thus part of the special things that were given to him and only him.

    Quote
    It even says in the Qur'an that Sulayman threatened to march all the way to Sheba in Yemen with a huge army to overwhelm and destroy her kingdom. (a long way to go for him - and her! She did after all decide to go all that way to submit to him - again which indicates he had some great reputation that had spread as far as Yemen.)

    To me - and to many others down the centuries - this sounds like he had a huge territorial kingdom - as well as a magical one.

    At the very least your assumption it was not is no more valid than the assumption it was - wouldn't you agree?


    You assumption is a valid conclusion.. I only disagree to its size being something no one else can achieve (the story of a helpless hoopoe tells us the size of his kingdom was not the special thing about his reign, in addition, verses 38:35-40 tell us that the magical elements of his kingdom is what was special and was given only to him).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #258 - February 10, 2010, 03:01 AM

    @ Iblis

    Quote
    And don't you think that's ridiculous? Regardless of your religious beliefs, to try to *force* yourself to believe in a nonsense story when all evidence points the other way. Can't you see you're demonstrating to us precisely why we left religion and Islam to begin with?


    I cite Hassan's comment in my defense Smiley

    Quote
    Thanks - fair enough - if one can believe the other miracles (animals that can think and communicate like humans, thrones materialised in a blink of an eye etc...) then it is not a huge leap to imagine that God could make the palace and other treasures/monuments just disappear in a blink of an eye.


    Quote
    Here's a better *explaination* instead of speculation:

    Muhammad wrote the Quran. Muhammad had deep respect and awe of the Jewish religion. Muhammad had so much respect for them that he copy pasted entire concepts whole-sale from them..

     

    Hmm? Are you saying that Muhammed actually believed in God? He thought this God is the Jeudo-Christian God and the mysterious man who taught him this religion (muhammed was illiterate) didn't tell him that he will go to Hell for corrupting the truth?

    So which is it? It's either:
    1- Muhammed didn't believe in God, but somehow chose to adopt the strictest form of monotheism which was in complete antagonism to his people's religion, endured persecution for ~10 years until he was exiled.. all for what? He was already rich and respected... He could have invented another pagan religion or branch off of paganism and he could have become one of the highest Meccan chiefs given his family position... instead that didn't happen and he was exiled and some stupid people in Yathrib invited the outcast to come rule over them and bring his oucast followers with him to live amongst them and share their resources, which immediately made Yathrib an enemy state to Mecca.... Why did Yathrib behave as such? God says it was a miracle and indeed it was!
    OR:
    2- He was proud and stubborn and insisted on corrupting what he perceived as God's truth.
    OR:
    3- As one Christian scholar, whose name I cannot recall at the moment, claimed: Muhammed was genuine in all his claims, the propecy, the Quran, etc... except he was hallucinating ALL the time. He was inflicted with hallucination, not dishonesty (according to that Christian scholar).

    Quote
    and also copied the whole Solomon story trusting the Jewish source to be accurate. Muhammad embellished the story with bits of his own creative thought and voila.. Soloman sura!


    No my love... parts of the Solomon story are in the canonized Hebrew Bible and parts of it are in the non-canonical Jewish writings...  he added nothing... he "tailored" bits and pieaces.. perhaps the only thing he "changed" was the claim that Solomon did NOT disbelieve (contradicting the Hebrew scripture). Muhammed was a scholar you know... even the Jesus story, it was *tailored* from no less than 10 Gospels.. he had a lot of reading to do... Oh wait! He was an illiterate, so it's probably that mysterious man again who was the real scholar, who read all these Gospels (both in the canon and outside it) and Muhammed just memorized whatever he said.

    Quote
    Just face the facts, the Solomon story reveals quite clearly that the Quran was written by a man with limited knowledge and limited imagination of what humans can achieve. As Hassan beautifully put it in his video. 

     

    Again, if one believes in God, they can believe in the supernatural.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #259 - February 10, 2010, 12:40 PM

    @ Hassan

    OK, here's my *SPECULATION*:

    If other mighty nations were, by force, made into vassal states under the command of a King they hated and this king ruled for a very brief time in history, say 20 years, why should they keep any records of this humiliation of their nations? It's an ugly memory they could have felt urged to forget...

    It's the same type of *SPECULATION* I use to try to understand the complete lack of any evidence of an Exodus... why would the Egyptians be excited about recording their *humiliation* at the hands of the God of their LOWLY SLAVES?

    When Ramses went to battle with the Hittites, he came back bragging about his *decisive victory*... that's according to the Egyptian records... we learn the truth only from Hittite records: no one won. But to Ramses, his failure to crush the Hittites in that battle was so humiliating he even boasted about his victory.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kadesh

    What I said was: He could have had a big territorial kingdom, but that's NOT what made his kingdom *special* in the sense that no one else can have!

    Now, the verses I shown you before:

    Surah Sad (#38)

     قَالَ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَهَبْ لِي مُلْكًا لَّا يَنبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ مِّنْ بَعْدِي إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْوَهَّابُ ?35? فَسَخَّرْنَا لَهُ الرِّيحَ تَجْرِي بِأَمْرِهِ رُخَاء حَيْثُ أَصَابَ ?36?  وَالشَّيَاطِينَ كُلَّ بَنَّاء وَغَوَّاصٍ ?37?  وَآخَرِينَ مُقَرَّنِينَ فِي الْأَصْفَادِ ?38?  هَذَا عَطَاؤُنَا فَامْنُنْ أَوْ أَمْسِكْ بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ ?39?  وَإِنَّ لَهُ عِندَنَا لَزُلْفَى وَحُسْنَ مَآبٍ ?40?


    Solomon's "special" reign, that no one could ever have was his magical reign over the demons and the elements as the verses above clearly show...

    The large territorial kingdom can indeed be concluded from the fact that he had a powerful army. However, like Yemen, the other nations could have been vassal states as well. And its size is NOT what made his kingdom special that no one could have after him.

    In fact, the story of the hoopoe bird tells us that even mighty Solomon with his army of demons, without God's will, didn't even know that there was a mighty kingdom in Yemen... he had to wait for a little bird to tell him about it and the bird even bragged about it that he knew what Solomon didn't!

    I would speculate that Solomon's kingdom was limited to Egypt, the Levant, Babylon and later Yemen. Basically, the areas where God wanted him to be a prophet King... far away nations could have had their own prophets.

    But I would think he had legendry amounts of treasures and lived in a magical palace, no one could ever have after him. That's because it's powerful demons who built his palace and monuments... it's demons who brought him treasures... so his palace/monuments/treasures were, in a sense, magical and thus part of the special things that were given to him and only him.

    You assumption is a valid conclusion.. I only disagree to its size being something no one else can achieve (the story of a helpless hoopoe tells us the size of his kingdom was not the special thing about his reign, in addition, verses 38:35-40 tell us that the magical elements of his kingdom is what was special and was given only to him).


    Hi Debunker,

    Thanks for your answers - I appreciate your speculations. I don't think there is anything wrong with speculating, particularly when we are presented with stories like this - it just seems to raise so many questions.

    Anyway I'm aware this can go on forever. Me finding it unbelievable there is no trace - and you not. So just one last question I would be interested in your opinion.

    Why did God do this?

    I mean why give Sulayman such an enormous Kingdom, huge and magical armies, power over the wind, big palace and so on... and then after 20 years or so make all trace vanish?

    I'd be interested to know what you think the point of it all might be?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #260 - February 11, 2010, 12:21 PM

    Sorry, this story keeps making more questions pop in my mind lol  grin12

    Regarding Tafseer, I have to say I find it odd the way some Muslims today scoff at some of the things they say, yet they have no problem with - for example - thrones being materialised in a blink of an eye or talking birds.

    Of course that's because they are in the Qur'an and the others are not.

    There is no logical or rational reason other than that.

    Tafseer was my specialst subject at SOAS and I do have certain degree of respect for many of them. It's true Ibn Kathir comes out with some daft things, but be fair to him he tended to collect just about all and every opinion he could find on a particular verse and just included it. He doesn't often give his own opinion, though does occasionally indicate which of the narrations he has presented, he prefers/thinks better.

    In fact most of them did avoid 'pure' and totally 'baseless' speculation. Generally they followed these rules:

    1. Tafseer of Qur'an by Qur'an

    2. Tafseer by Prophetic Hadith

    3. Tafseer by narrations from Sahaba.

    4. Tafseer by analogy and linguistics.

    In fact some went as far as to say that simply giving an opinion (Tafseer bir-ra'y) was completely haram!

    When it comes to stories like Sulayman's, the Tafseers are mostly following the clues the text itself raises.

    Let's take the flying carpet that some Muslims have already objected to the fact I included it in my video..

    The Qur'an states that the wind was under Sulaymans control and he could order it to do whatever he liked.

    "And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient): Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire." (34.12)

    The Qur'an goes further and appears to suggest it carried him to another land when it says:

    
"(It was Our power that made) the violent (unruly) wind flow (tamely) for Solomon, to his order, to the land which We had blessed: for We do know all things."  (21.81)

    Why is it so silly to assume that Sulayman would have ordered the wind to carry him on an object like a carpet?

    Yet a talking bird or materilising chair is not silly?

    So what did Sulayman order the wind to do?

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #261 - February 11, 2010, 12:25 PM

    I think it's because of this association:




    BTW where does the flying carpet story come from? Is there one older than the Quran?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #262 - February 11, 2010, 12:26 PM


    "And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient): Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire." (34.12)





    Again Mohammed's tribal 7th century Arabian personality projecting through.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #263 - February 11, 2010, 12:31 PM

    AbuY - I think the crux of this is that we believe Islam at its soul to be a bad religion.  Of course we believe with a 1 tblsp of interpretation, 1 tblsp of sophistry,  5 tblsp of cognitive dissonance, 10 tblsp of wishful thinking and 1cup of masala Islam can be neutered into something less harmful, like the Islam you & Debunker follow.

    However this is not Islam to us, only to the both of you.  Its no longer a casserole, but its an altogether different dish with your own personal flavours.

    When we talk of Islam, most of us are talking about the real Islam that has not been tampared with cultural interprations & acrobatics, we believe is literal and we accept as it is. Warts, Vs 4:34, Mo's sanctioning for extra wives and all.

    You may think you are doing your kids a favour with it.  I dont, and I very much doubt Hassan does or he would be preaching it to them too. 

    You may have a sanitised interpretation that is agreable with the West's humanistic enlightenment, I just hope your kids will grow up and dont start seeing it for what it really is saying according to most scholars. 
    That I am sure, you would fear also and thats where I stand too.

    So in short I have no problem with most of your beliefs, but unless you can prove to me that that is what is true Islam and what most madrassa's/scholars/muslims are preaching then I cant accept it as Islam.  tbh you interpretation as far as I am concerned is not Islam but goes under the bracket of "Abuyounus2 beliefs"


    Exactly Islame. The real Islam is the Orthodox Islam. It's the one I felt most theologically satisfied with because it pulled no punches. But morally bankrupt and void of intellectuality. The only real spirituality I felt was when praying and after fast, I felt grateful. But you can get that from meditating and vanquishing hunger. I have no real way of saying that it is in fact God answering prayers when I feel at peace. I have the same sensation looking at a smiling child?s face, a beautiful sunset or hugging a loved one.

    I don?t think my brain registers any difference between the events.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #264 - February 11, 2010, 12:40 PM

    @ Iblis

    I cite Hassan's comment in my defense Smiley
     

    Hmm? Are you saying that Muhammed actually believed in God? He thought this God is the Jeudo-Christian God and the mysterious man who taught him this religion (muhammed was illiterate) didn't tell him that he will go to Hell for corrupting the truth?

    So which is it? It's either:
    1- Muhammed didn't believe in God, but somehow chose to adopt the strictest form of monotheism which was in complete antagonism to his people's religion, endured persecution for ~10 years until he was exiled.. all for what? He was already rich and respected... He could have invented another pagan religion or branch off of paganism and he could have become one of the highest Meccan chiefs given his family position... instead that didn't happen and he was exiled and some stupid people in Yathrib invited the outcast to come rule over them and bring his oucast followers with him to live amongst them and share their resources, which immediately made Yathrib an enemy state to Mecca.... Why did Yathrib behave as such? God says it was a miracle and indeed it was!
    OR:
    2- He was proud and stubborn and insisted on corrupting what he perceived as God's truth.
    OR:
    3- As one Christian scholar, whose name I cannot recall at the moment, claimed: Muhammed was genuine in all his claims, the propecy, the Quran, etc... except he was hallucinating ALL the time. He was inflicted with hallucination, not dishonesty (according to that Christian scholar).

    No my love... parts of the Solomon story are in the canonized Hebrew Bible and parts of it are in the non-canonical Jewish writings...  he added nothing... he "tailored" bits and pieaces.. perhaps the only thing he "changed" was the claim that Solomon did NOT disbelieve (contradicting the Hebrew scripture). Muhammed was a scholar you know... even the Jesus story, it was *tailored* from no less than 10 Gospels.. he had a lot of reading to do... Oh wait! He was an illiterate, so it's probably that mysterious man again who was the real scholar, who read all these Gospels (both in the canon and outside it) and Muhammed just memorized whatever he said.
     

    Again, if one believes in God, they can believe in the supernatural.



    Debunker I want you to imagine there is no God, for one month. And read the Quran from that perspective. Not asking you to lose your faith. It?s an intellectual and creative endeavour.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #265 - February 11, 2010, 02:09 PM

    Debunker I want you to imagine there is no God, for one month. And read the Quran from that perspective. Not asking you to lose your faith. It?s an intellectual and creative endeavour.

    That would be interesting; dont forget to report back the findings  Afro

    My guess is that it would feel no different to the world in which he currently lives i.e. one in which the reality is La Illah ha; that there is no God

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #266 - February 11, 2010, 02:09 PM

    AbuY- did we get your explanation as to why we have no evidence of the presence of King Solomon?

    ?

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #267 - February 11, 2010, 02:52 PM


    Why is it so silly to assume that Sulayman would have ordered the wind to carry him on an object like a carpet?

    Yet a talking bird or materilising chair is not silly?

    So what did Sulayman order the wind to do?




    Hey Hassan, if you have faith you can beleive in any of these things - just as you did for 28 years of your adult life - this is what I've been trying to get at from the start. If it said that Solomon used a flying carpet in the Quran then I would have belived that - but the fact is it doesn't. The reason I beleive in some 'silly' things is that they are in the Quran - as for the other 'silly' things (magic carpet etc.) that I raised issues with earlier - they are not in the Quran - and this is why I think these things are just speculation.

    So why am I willing to beleive in the 'silly miracles' in the Quran? I beleive God is capable of performing miracles - if I believed in Him (i.e. the creator of the entire universe) and didn't think he could perform miracles - that would indeed be somewhat foolish of me in my opinion. I beleive the Quran to be the word of God - I don't beleive Muhammad made it up or that he was hallucinating (I really like debunkers post regarding this above).

    PS regarding the talking bird - I'm not sure it says the bird spoke in the manner that we speak since it says in the Quran that ''we taught solomon the speech/language of birds'' implying that Solomon could simply understand messages from sounds that the bird was making

    YUSUFALI: And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)"
    PICKTHAL: And Solomon was David's heir. And he said: O mankind! Lo! we have been taught the language of birds, and have been given (abundance) of all things. This surely is evident favour.
    SHAKIR: And Sulaiman was Dawood's heir, and he said: O men! we have been taught the language of birds, and we have been given all things; most surely this is manifest grace.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #268 - February 11, 2010, 02:57 PM

    BD: ''Exactly Islame. The real Islam is the Orthodox Islam. ''

    What makes you so sure of that?

    You're willing to reject orhtodox Islam but at the same time you are so sure that it is true islam?


    ''It's the one I felt most theologically satisfied with because it pulled no punches.''

    So you tended just to beleive the most 'harshest' intepretation of Islam and beleived it to be the correct ineterpretation because it was the most 'harshest' interpretation that you felt pulled no punches?



    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #269 - February 11, 2010, 03:07 PM

    BD: ''Exactly Islame. The real Islam is the Orthodox Islam. ''

    What makes you so sure of that?

    You're willing to reject orhtodox Islam but at the same time you are so sure that it is true islam?


    ''It's the one I felt most theologically satisfied with because it pulled no punches.''

    So you tended just to beleive the most 'harshest' intepretation of Islam and beleived it to be the correct ineterpretation because it was the most 'harshest' interpretation that you felt pulled no punches?





    Why is it harsh? It's God's law.

    Wink
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