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 Topic: The Story of Sulayman

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #270 - February 11, 2010, 03:10 PM
    no houris for blackdog
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #271 - February 11, 2010, 03:14 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 03:10 PM
    no houris for blackdog


    haha its ok i was surprised about the houris anyways, i thought it was western propaganda, i was ready to settle for god's love and my family and friends being with me, and hanging out with the cool prophets.. this was of course during my most religoius period, not sure how clear i was in the head  Cheesy
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #272 - February 11, 2010, 03:18 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 02:57 PM
    BD: ''Exactly Islame. The real Islam is the Orthodox Islam. ''

    What makes you so sure of that?

    You're willing to reject orhtodox Islam but at the same time you are so sure that it is true islam?


    ''It's the one I felt most theologically satisfied with because it pulled no punches.''

    So you tended just to beleive the most 'harshest' intepretation of Islam and beleived it to be the correct ineterpretation because it was the most 'harshest' interpretation that you felt pulled no punches?

    I think BD was saying these are not the harshest interpretations - they are the most literal (which sadly usually make them usually the most harshest too).  He would expect Allah to be direct & straightforward, particularly when the tone of the quran, character of Allah, the great detail it sometimes goes into often insignificant things, punishments & rewards etc is mostly consistent with this type of interpretation.

    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 02:52 PM
    Hey Hassan, if you have faith you can beleive in any of these things - just as you did for 28 years of your adult life - this is what I've been trying to get at from the start.

    I agree with AbuY -  if you can believe in an invisible sky God, then whats so unusual about believing in flying donkeys or talking birds?

    I think it exposes the ludicrousness of these beliefs from a rationalist perspective , but people like AbuY already concede that its not necessarily rationally deductive in the first place, so I think we're barking up the wrong tree.

    Whats more interesting is what made AbuY & DB so willing to take this leap of faith? i.e. from assuming there to be a creator to the assumption that this creator has a name & characteristics as specified in a book he delivered through a chosen human called Muhammed, despite the fact that they acknowledge there is no evidence.
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #273 - February 11, 2010, 03:18 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 11, 2010, 02:09 PM
    AbuY- did we get your explanation as to why we have no evidence of the presence of King Solomon?


    I think I mentioned earlier, from the Quran we don't know how vast Solomons kingdom actually was - all we know from the Quran is that there is mention of one palace. Is it possible we might still find evidence for this palace one day - perhaps. But does that mean Solomons kingdom never existed - I don't think so.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #274 - February 11, 2010, 03:44 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 03:18 PM
    I think I mentioned earlier, from the Quran we don't know how vast Solomons kingdom actually was - all we know from the Quran is that there is mention of one palace. Is it possible we might still find evidence for this palace one day - perhaps. But does that mean Solomons kingdom never existed - I don't think so.


    Regardless of interpretation I think the minimum that can be read from the Quran was that Solomon's kingdom was at least quite significant. Agreed?

    At this point our historical record of official kings and leaders of ancient times is fairly complete. We have records of the neighbouring Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Elamites, Persians, Urartu-Armenians, Phoenicians, and others. Some of these peoples were even smaller and less significant than the Kingdom of Israel... yet we have fairly precise records of their more significant rulers and activities.

    With that in mind how come the Kingdom of Israel has very paltry evidence of it's mere existence and literally *none* for that of anyone resembling Solomon? All these nations left inscriptions, coinage, ruins, accounts of wars, diplomacy and court intrigue. All the evidence so far points to the Kingdom of Israel being merely a small transient state that did not last long enough to leave a mark. But the Jews, the great story tellers that they are, probably just inflated themselves and made up fables about some great king named Solomon and plopped that crap in the Bible, only for Mo to pick up on that same fantasy and propagate that as fact.

    And even if Solomon existed, he was so insignifcant that he didn't even leave a mark on the historical record. Regardless of what angle you wanna view this the fact is that the Quran got it wrong about Solomon.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #275 - February 11, 2010, 03:50 PM
    ''Regardless of interpretation I think the minimum that can be read from the Quran was that Solomon's kingdom was at least quite significant. Agreed?''

    I'm honestly not sure - unless someone can show me the various verses which state the vastness of Solomons kingdom.

    Hassan?
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #276 - February 11, 2010, 03:55 PM
     015

    I just stated quite clearly that Solomon's kingdom being "vast" is irrelevent. Because one fact that is quite clear and undeniable is that the Bible and Quran portray his kingdom as significant. It portrays his kingdom with enormous wealth, armies, and even conquering anothers. It is quite literally impossible for such a supposed king to not leave behind a single mark on the historical record. And from the offset, we can automatically dismiss this story as a fantasty because at this point our historical scholarship of the region is fairly complete - as far as significant kings and rulers goes. If he existed, we'd know about the real historical Soloman by this point.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #277 - February 11, 2010, 04:02 PM
    I'm not sure about the Bible, but I don't think the Quran gives an indication to how significant (happy?) Solomons kingdom was in terms of wealth, armies etc. All it says is that he 'was granted a kingdom of the like which would never be granted to anyone after him' wich could very easily mean a kingdom that consisted of jinn and birds as well as men would never be granted to anyone after him.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #278 - February 11, 2010, 04:14 PM
    And science can confirm that Jinns don't exist and Birds don't talk.  dance  cool2
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #279 - February 11, 2010, 04:49 PM
    @ Hassan

    Quote
    Hi Debunker,

    Thanks for your answers - I appreciate your speculations. I don't think there is anything wrong with speculating, particularly when we are presented with stories like this - it just seems to raise so many questions.

    Anyway I'm aware this can go on forever. Me finding it unbelievable there is no trace - and you not. So just one last question I would be interested in your opinion.

    Why did God do this?

    I mean why give Sulayman such an enormous Kingdom, huge and magical armies, power over the wind, big palace and so on... and then after 20 years or so make all trace vanish?

    I'd be interested to know what you think the point of it all might be?


    Solomon prayed, God answered his prayer. The moral of the story, of course is clear in verses: Saba:13, Naml:19; Naml:40... Solomon was a great example of a man who was given and given, yet he managed to stay very grateful to God. (rich powerful men tend to deify themselves and forget God).

    You said about Tafsir:

    Quote
    In fact most of them did avoid 'pure' and totally 'baseless' speculation. Generally they followed these rules:

    1. Tafseer of Qur'an by Qur'an

    2. Tafseer by Prophetic Hadith

    3. Tafseer by narrations from Sahaba.

    4. Tafseer by analogy and linguistics.


    What do you mean by narrations from Sahaba? How about narrations from Tabi'in? How about narrations totally based on the Bible and non-canonical books? I can give hundreds of such narrations in Tafsir.

    For example, the ABSOLUTELY ridiculous claim that God has taken Jesus image and put it on some other man to be crucified is taken from Gnostic writings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Treatise_of_the_Great_Seth

    Also, I written somewhere in this forum that the verses that mentioned a town that did not believe despite sending 3 messengers, the idiot Ibn Kathir said that God sent Simon, someone else and Paul! Where did he get this crap from? Didn't he know that there were no prophets between Jesus and Muhammed (according to Quran)? And then he says it might be Jesus who sent them! The Quran says God sent 3 messengers and Ibn Kathir says it is claimed that Jesus might have sent them! What's wrong with taking the verses for what they said? A town won't believe even though they had 3 messengers sent to them! Why open up his big mouth and list these silly obvious mistakes in his Tafsir?

    As for the Men of the Heights, why does the idiot Ibn Kathir includes silly opinions that these could be angels or prophets when it's clear from the language of verses that they were worried and hoping they won't end up in Hell...

    You say Ibn Kathir included all opinions, but why does he include the opinions that are obviously wrong! There were no prophets between Jesus and Muhammed according to Quran, nor was Jesus a God, so Paul, Simon and the third dude could NOT be the ones referred to as the 3 messengers so why does Ibn Kathir include such obvious stupidies in his book?  

    And was it the narrations of Sahaba that Bilqis had goat-like feet?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #280 - February 11, 2010, 04:58 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 02:52 PM
    Hey Hassan, if you have faith you can beleive in any of these things - just as you did for 28 years of your adult life


    Ouch!

    Actually you are spot on. It is indeed faith that makes belief in these things possible.

    If you want to know why I believed these things back then - I can't really explain why - it was as you say: 'faith' and looking back now it's like having one's mind clouded so that one can't see things that are staring one in the face. It's the assumption that even though this doesn't appear to make any sense, there 'must' be a good explanation and that God knows best. It is my fault, my weakness, my limited vision and flawed reasoning that is to blame for not fully comprehending. So they are shoved to one side and mostly ignored. Like the verses about hitting one's wife that always gnawed at me - I kept telling myself that I simply have to 'trust' God's wisdom on this. I knew God was true and that the Qur'an was his word - so there simply must be a great and wonderful reason to it all. End of story.

    But it is amazing how one's perception can change. It happened slowly in my case and I will be the first to admit there were a few jolts that woke me out of this foggy faith mentality and started me on the road to serious questioning.

    Now it's like a curtain has been raised and I suddenly see all the puppeteers pulling the strings. I can see a plastic fake necklace where I once saw priceless pearls. I see a human God who is a couple of millennia passed his sell-by-date.

    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 02:52 PM
    PS regarding the talking bird - I'm not sure it says the bird spoke in the manner that we speak since it says in the Quran that ''we taught solomon the speech/language of birds'' implying that Solomon could simply understand messages from sounds that the bird was making

    YUSUFALI: And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)"
    PICKTHAL: And Solomon was David's heir. And he said: O mankind! Lo! we have been taught the language of birds, and have been given (abundance) of all things. This surely is evident favour.
    SHAKIR: And Sulaiman was Dawood's heir, and he said: O men! we have been taught the language of birds, and we have been given all things; most surely this is manifest grace.


    Hmm... still trying to rationalise it Abu Yunus. There may be hope for you yet  Afro

    I'd be interested in your thoughts on the question I asked Debunker. Why did God give Sulayman this amazing kingdom with power over the wind, jinn, animals etc...? What was the point?

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #281 - February 11, 2010, 05:24 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 11, 2010, 04:49 PM
    @ Hassan

    Solomon prayed, God answered his prayer. The moral of the story, of course is clear in verses: Saba:13, Naml:19; Naml:40... Solomon was a great example of a man who was given and given, yet he managed to stay very grateful to God. (rich powerful men tend to deify themselves and forget God).


    Hmm... yes... given great wealth, power, amazing palaces, and so on and he says thanks to his God.

    Not really a ground-breaking example imho. In fact that prayer sounds pretty selfish - particularly as he had already inherited a Kingdom from his father David. (Interesting how in those days God tended to keep prophet hood within the family. Lucky old bani Israel - tough shit for all his neighbours who got killed for worshipping the wrong God. Now if it had been me, I would have sent them all a prophet instead of just one after another to bani israel.)

    Also, this great example is only recorded in the Bible and the Qur'an, apart from those who witnessed it at the time of course. Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to only for it not to be recorded in any history so those who arguably need it most could benefit from it.

    Quote from: debunker on February 11, 2010, 04:49 PM
    What do you mean by narrations from Sahaba? How about narrations from Tabi'in? How about narrations totally based on the Bible and non-canonical books?


    Quite true, Debunker, I should have added them to the list.

    I can see you are no fan of Ibn Kathir lol and I am not that bothered about defending him, though his tafseer is very useful when discussing with more traditional Muslims. (My favourite tafseer is that of Zamakhshari - and I actually translated 25% of when doing a Phd on it - which I didn't complete due to personal reasons.) But again Ibn Kathir, like I say, does relate lots of opinions and when you say he gives this or that opinion, he will also give a different one too and leaves the reader to make their own mind up.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #282 - February 11, 2010, 05:31 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 11, 2010, 04:58 PM
    Now it's like a curtain has been raised and I suddenly see all the puppeteers pulling the strings. I can see a plastic fake necklace where I once saw priceless pearls. I see a human God who is a couple of millennia passed his sell-by-date.

    Nice Afro Pretty much how I saw it too. When I speak to both AbuY & Debunk, I always try to get in touch with the Muslim I once was, and argue against that seemingly knowledgeable & confident (yet uncomfortably aware of dissonance) young man.

    I wrote this earlier in jest but also with a degree of truth

    Quote from: IsLame on February 09, 2010, 06:43 PM
    Hass - you need to be more open minded.  

    Seems like Allah was concerned with permanently wiping the world free of any traces of evidence of his existance, which he did perfectly. This in itself should be considered as proof of his existance.


    I remember with incidences like King Soloman actually never expecting (contrary to what AbuY wrote) proofs to be found.  Not because I believed it never happened, but its was almost like Allah had intentionally removed all traces of evidence, as belief without it  was supposedly the hallmark of real faith. And that was the whole point.

    The question i have for the both of you is does this argument bear any relevence for either of you?
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #283 - February 11, 2010, 05:35 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 03:18 PM
    I think I mentioned earlier, from the Quran we don't know how vast Solomons kingdom actually was - all we know from the Quran is that there is mention of one palace. Is it possible we might still find evidence for this palace one day - perhaps. But does that mean Solomons kingdom never existed - I don't think so.


    Who do you think Sulayman was fighting with all these forces?

    Even if it was a city state (the bare minimum of what it could possibly be) we would expect some evidence.

    But let me be conservative and give an estimate of how big it would have been.

    Solomon clearly must have had battles - and defeated - the Egyptians and Assyrians amongst others. These are after all the natural areas of conflict for all kingdoms and empires down the ages in that region and so it is not unreasonable to assume he ruled over those areas. Not only that he had - at the very least - the allegiance of a huge and wonderful Kingdom in Yemen.

    Now that's pretty big.

    No trace?

    Hmmm....

    At least Debunkers speculation that it was all made to vanish would account for there being no trace.

    But if you reject that idea then I'm afraid it is distinctly fishy.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #284 - February 11, 2010, 05:36 PM
    ''I'd be interested in your thoughts on the question I asked Debunker. Why did God give Sulayman this amazing kingdom with power over the wind, jinn, animals etc...? What was the point?''

    Why did God create the universe? why did God create us?

    Do you really think I know why God does the things He does? I find the assumption that we might be able to understand God's reasons/intentions very presumptuous to put it lightly.

    PS if the Quran said the birds spoke Arabic I would even accept that. But do you not find it clear from the verse that 'Solomon was taught the language/speech of birds? To me this is quite clear and unmistakable. What do you think?
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #285 - February 11, 2010, 05:40 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 05:36 PM
    PS if the Quran said the birds spoke Arabic I would even accept that. But do you not find it clear from the verse that 'Solomon was taught the language/speech of birds? To me this is quite clear and unmistakable. What do you think?


    Quite true, though we are referring to very intelligent birds who - as Debunker pointed out - could recognise a kingdom and know it would be of interest to King Solomon and be able to describe it to him. So this is not ordinary animal language - and no ordinary animals. So when I say the bird can speak I mean it can communicate with human-like intelligence - over and above what one would expect from a bird.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #286 - February 11, 2010, 05:44 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 11, 2010, 05:35 PM
    Who do you think Sulayman was fighting with all these forces?

    Even if it was a city state we would expect some evidence.

    But let me be conservative and give an estimate of how big it would have been.

    Solomon clearly must have had battles - and defeated - the Egyptians and Assyrians amongst others. These are after all the natural areas of conflict for all kingdoms and empires down the ages in that region and so it is not unreasonable to assume he ruled over those areas. Not only that he had - at the very least - the allegiance of a huge and wonderful Kingdom in Yemen.

    Now that's pretty big.

    No trace?

    Hmmm....

    At least Debunkers speculation that it was all made to vanish would account for there being no trace.

    But if you reject that idea then I'm afraid it is distinctly fishy.



    Hassan can you please show me where it says in the Quran that Solomon had wars with Egyptians and Asyrrians. In fact can you show me a verse saying that he was involved in a war with anyone.

    What I'm saying might sound fishy to you - but I hope you can realise that my stance has always been to go by the verses of the Quran themselves - not inferences people might draw using other sources.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #287 - February 11, 2010, 05:48 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 11, 2010, 05:40 PM
    Quite true, though we are referring to very intelligent birds who - as Debunker pointed out - could recognise a kingdom and know it would be of interest to King Solomon and be able to describe it to him. So this is not ordinary animal language - and no ordinary animals. So when I say the bird can speak I mean it can communicate with human-like intelligence - over and above what one would expect from a bird.


    I probably wouldn't go as far as human-like inteligence (although perhaps they did). but yes for sure they had a special supernatural intelligence - much more intelligent than talking parrots for example.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #288 - February 11, 2010, 07:05 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 05:36 PM
    Why did God create the universe? why did God create us?
    I find the assumption that we might be able to understand God's reasons/intentions very presumptuous to put it lightly.


    Good point and answer. As humans, we do love to 'know it all', picking and choosing what things are more ridiculous or plausible than others. Atheists in particular have a fondness for this I find.  If you think about it deeply enough, what is not bizarre about our existence?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #289 - February 11, 2010, 07:38 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 02:52 PM
    The reason I beleive in some 'silly' things is that they are in the Quran


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtePF8p-eIo
    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #290 - February 11, 2010, 07:41 PM
    paloma - thanks for that - very insightful, very insightful indeed - did you make it yourself?
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #291 - February 11, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 05:44 PM

    Hassan can you please show me where it says in the Quran that Solomon had wars with Egyptians and Asyrrians. In fact can you show me a verse saying that he was involved in a war with anyone.

    What I'm saying might sound fishy to you - but I hope you can realise that my stance has always been to go by the verses of the Quran themselves - not inferences people might draw using other sources.


    Are you kidding me Aby Yunus?

    A huge army of soldiers, jinn, and animals plus the wind under his control - and he goes out marching with his forces - and he didn't fight anyone?

    You're having a laugh mate.

    Or maybe God is?

    Presumably, like Old King Cole, he marched them up to the top of the hill and back down again - then back home for tea and biccies!
     grin12
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #292 - February 11, 2010, 08:24 PM
    No I'm not kidding you - that's why I keep asking you to show me the relevant verses - which you have yet to do. Where are they dude?

    He had rule over a special community consisting of men jinn and birds, sure. But where does it say he had 'armies, soldiers that engaged in wars' as you keep saying. Verses please. Does the Quran even say he went on marches with people under his rule? Verse? the only verse I know of as a  candidate is:

    ''And his hosts of the jinn and the men and the birds were gathered to him, and they were formed into groups.''
    27:17

    Where does it say he went on army-like marches?

    My knowledge of Quran isn't as good as yours. But of course I have read it several times and have been trying to search for these specific verses lately - with no luck. In case I missed them - again dude where are the verses??

    Plus champions league? - you're the one 'avin a laugh  001_tongue
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #293 - February 11, 2010, 08:42 PM
    There is the verse 37 of an-Naml for example, where Sulayman threatens to destroy Sheba's kingdom with huge armies, if she doesn't submit

    ارْجِعْ إِلَيْهِمْ فَلَنَأْتِيَنَّهُمْ بِجُنُودٍ لَا قِبَلَ لَهُمْ بِهَا وَلَنُخْرِجَنَّهُمْ مِنْهَا أَذِلَّةً وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ ٧٣

    "Return to them, for we shall surely we shall come to them with such armies as they will never be able to oppose. We shall expel them from there in disgrace, and they will be humbled."

    There are also verses in Sura Bani Israel that say God will help them overcome their enemies in battle - do you think this excludes their greatest warrior King who God gave all these powers to?

    Be serious Abu Yunus.

    OK, seriously - tell me - what the heck did Sulayman do with all these ranks of jinn and men and birds that he reviewed and got so angry if one little bird was missing.

    Play tiddlywinks?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #294 - February 11, 2010, 08:53 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 08:24 PM
    Where does it say he went on army-like marches?

    وَحُشِرَ لِسُلَيْمَانَ جُنُودُهُ مِنَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنْسِ وَالطَّيْرِ فَهُمْ يُوزَعُونَ

    حَتَّىٰ إِذَا أَتَوْا عَلَىٰ وَادِ النَّمْلِ قَالَتْ نَمْلَةٌ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّمْلُ ادْخُلُوا مَسَاكِنَكُمْ لَا يَحْطِمَنَّكُمْ سُلَيْمَانُ وَجُنُودُهُ وَهُمْ لَا يَشْعُرُونَ

    Solomon's armies of jinn, men, and birds were marshalled in ordered ranks before him, and when they came to the Valley of the Ants, one ant said, "Ants! Go into your homes, in case Solomon and his armies unwittingly crush you."

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #295 - February 11, 2010, 08:53 PM
    I repeat - who was Sulayman fighting with these armies?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #296 - February 11, 2010, 09:02 PM
    I agree in 27:37 he threatens to attack shebas kingdom with his armies/hosts (btw what is the more accurate translation 'armies' or 'hosts'?). But there is no mention of 'huge' armies/hosts as you put it. The fact that shebas kingdom wouldn't have the power to oppose Solomons army/hosts was perhaps because they consisted of jinn and he had control of other elements such as the wind etc.? Of course in the end he did not end up fighting Shebas kingdom anyway.

    I think it's possible people make the assumption that the Quran is describing him as a 'warrior king' due to things they read from other scriptures and texts. However if we look at the verses of the Quran themselves there is actually very little evidence of this if we read it whilst clearing our minds of these other scriptures and texts.

    I'm not sure what the purpose of Solomon and his community of jinn and birds was and why he got so angry at that poor bird. maybe one day I can ask him inshallah - maybe you as well inshallah.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #297 - February 11, 2010, 09:05 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 09:02 PM
    I'm not sure what the purpose of Solomon and his community of jinn and birds was and why he got so angry at that poor bird. maybe one day I can ask him inshallah - maybe you as well inshallah.

    That's the spirit  Cheesy
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #298 - February 11, 2010, 09:10 PM
    ''Solomon's armies of jinn, men, and birds were marshalled in ordered ranks before him, and when they came to the Valley of the Ants, one ant said, "Ants! Go into your homes, in case Solomon and his armies unwittingly crush you."

    Shakirs translation is:

    And his hosts of the jinn and the men and the birds were gathered to him, and they were formed into groups.
    Until when they came to the valley of the Naml, a Namlite said: O Naml! enter your houses, (that) Sulaiman and his hosts may not crush you while they do not know.

    which translation is more accurate - be honest!



    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #299 - February 11, 2010, 09:11 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 09:02 PM
    I agree in 27:37 he threatens to attack shebas kingdom with his armies/hosts (btw what is the more accurate translation 'armies' or 'hosts'?). But there is no mention of 'huge' armies/hosts as you put it. The fact that shebas kingdom wouldn't have the power to oppose Solomons army/hosts was perhaps because they consisted of jinn and he had control of other elements such as the wind etc.? Of course in the end he did not end up fighting Shebas kingdom anyway.

    I think it's possible people make the assumption that the Quran is describing him as a 'warrior king' due to things they read from other scriptures and texts. However if we look at the verses of the Quran themselves there is actually very little evidence of this if we read it whilst clearing our minds of these other scriptures and texts.

    I'm not sure what the purpose of Solomon and his community of jinn and birds was and why he got so angry at that poor bird. maybe one day I can ask him inshallah - maybe you as well inshallah.


    جنود means Armies and is the word used today to mean Armies - and Jundi means soldier.

    No way, Abu Yunus - the Qur'an clearly portrays Sulayman as a military commander.

    But this just kinda shows the futility of arguing when it is a matter of faith.

    btw our loyality to Spurs is not based on a Champions League place - unlike you glory hunters. We know that pain is good for the soul  grin12
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