The Story of Sulayman

Previous page 1 ... 9 10 1112 13 ... 19 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #300 - February 11, 2010, 09:17 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 09:10 PM
''Solomon's armies of jinn, men, and birds were marshalled in ordered ranks before him, and when they came to the Valley of the Ants, one ant said, "Ants! Go into your homes, in case Solomon and his armies unwittingly crush you."

Shakirs translation is:

And his hosts of the jinn and the men and the birds were gathered to him, and they were formed into groups.
Until when they came to the valley of the Naml, a Namlite said: O Naml! enter your houses, (that) Sulaiman and his hosts may not crush you while they do not know.

which translation is more accurate - be honest!

Decide for yourself:

وَحُشِرَ لِسُلَيْمَانَ جُنُودُهُ مِنَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنْسِ وَالطَّيْرِ فَهُمْ يُوزَعُونَ

وَحُشِرَ = and gathered

لِسُلَيْمَانَ = to Sulayman

جُنُودُهُ -= his armies

مِنَ = of

الْجِنِّ - Jinn

وَالْإِنْسِ = and Humans

وَالطَّيْرِ = and birds

فَهُمْ يُوزَعُونَ - and they were arranged/apportioned/ranked
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #301 - February 11, 2010, 09:41 PM

Ok so he had rule over this army of jinn birds and men - but does that necessarily mean he went on all these miltary expeditions and for example conquered Egypt and Asyrria as you claim - you still haven't shown me the verses for these. Does the Quran even mention a single war that he was involved in?

Maybe his army were for defensive purposes only. For example, the US has a huge miltary and they only (or supposed to only) use it for defensive purposes. The UN have military forces - but they are only for peace-keeping purposes etc. etc. And again we don't actually know how 'huge' his army was from the Quran.

PS Glory hunters? - we haven't won anything in 5 years

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #302 - February 11, 2010, 09:55 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 09:41 PM
Ok so he had rule over this army of jinn birds and men - but does that necessarily mean he went on all these miltary expeditions and for example conquered Egypt and Asyrria as you claim - you still haven't shown me the verses for these. Does the Quran even mention a single war that he was involved in?

Of course you realise that I don't actually believe he did conquer the Egyptians or the Assyrians.

If there even was a real person called Sulayman who ruled over the Israelites (and it is quite possible imho that he is completely fictitious) then he was probably no more than a tribal leader of an insignificant little tribe and at best ruled over a small city state of no importance.

HOWEVER... according to the claims of the Qur'an it would be - at the very least - to be expected that such a powerful King would actually use these armies and forces.

It is absurd to think he wouldn't.

And since the main neighbouring kingdoms were Egypt and Assyria then it is only logical to assume he fought with them - and obviously won (he surely could not have lost).

To say that he had all these forces and marched with them (you agree now that he marched with them?) and reviewed them (you agree he reviewed them?) and had men as well as Jinn and animals (you agree now that he had men?) - but did nothing else with them, is clearly absurd.

It is an obvious logical conclusion that he must have used these great forces - and the Qur'an suggests he did in his threats to march to Yemen and crush the Kingdom of Sheba.

Not to mention the known and documented history of the period and region is one of constant warefare and battles between neighbouring states.

I'm sorry, Abu Yunus - but your insistence that he did not fight with anyone is ridiculous and contradicts not only reason but also what the Qur'an clearly indicates.

I really would like to know what you think they did all the time. We are talking maybe a quater of a century.

March round in circles smiling at ants?
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #303 - February 11, 2010, 10:03 PM

''And since the main neighbouring kingdoms were Egypt and Assyria then it is only logical to assume he fought with them - and obviously won (he surely could not have lost).''

I honestly think we're jumping to unwarranted conclusions here (to assume he fought with Egypt and Asyrria) - but hey if this suits you then fine.

''I'm sorry, Abu Yunus - but your insistence that he did not fight with anyone is ridiculous and contradicts not only reason but also what the Qur'an clearly indicates.''

Again I think you are making assumptions here - the Quran does not mention him being involved in a single war - yes not a single one, and as I stated above:

Maybe his army were for defensive purposes only. For example, the US has a huge miltary and they only (or supposed to only) use it for defensive purposes. The UN have military forces - but they are only for peace-keeping purposes etc. etc. And again we don't actually know how 'huge' his army was from the Quran.

This is possible right?

''March round in circles smiling at ants?''

Sounds like fun to me

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #304 - February 11, 2010, 10:10 PM

I give up - Yes, Abu Yunus - it's possible - anythings possible - the Qur'an could be the creation of the mind of a 7th century Arab based on the Abrahamic tales he picked up? No?
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #305 - February 11, 2010, 10:10 PM

My answers in bold:

''To say that he had all these forces and marched with them (you agree now that he marched with them?) maybe and reviewed them (you agree he reviewed them?) I never said he didn't and had men as well as Jinn and animals (you agree now that he had men?) I always said he had men unless I left it out once by mistake - but did nothing else with them, is clearly absurd.''

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #306 - February 11, 2010, 10:12 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 11, 2010, 10:10 PM
I give up - Yes, Abu Yunus - it's possible - anythings possible - the Qur'an could be the creation of the mind of a 7th century Arab based on the Abrahamic tales he picked up? No?

It's possibe, but I very highly doubt it hence my faith. I don't think that Muhammad, Moses and Jesus were liars.

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #307 - February 11, 2010, 10:15 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 10:12 PM
I don't think that Muhammad, Moses and Jesus were liars.

They don't have to be liars, Abu Yunus. I also believe they were all sincere and believed what they said.

They are not the first people to sincerely believe God spoke to them - and they sure as hell aren't the last.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #308 - February 11, 2010, 10:17 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIRb8TigJ28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9czBBKof7Yo
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #309 - February 11, 2010, 10:18 PM

Probably my favorite part.
- Saif Rahman
- Ex-Muslim
- Je suis Haram
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #310 - February 11, 2010, 10:26 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 11, 2010, 10:10 PM
I give up - Yes, Abu Yunus - it's possible - anythings possible - the Qur'an could be the creation of the mind of a 7th century Arab based on the Abrahamic tales he picked up? No?

BRILLIANT

My Book
My Blog
- Saif Rahman
- Ex-Muslim
- Je suis Haram
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #311 - February 11, 2010, 10:36 PM

Quote from: hassan
I give up - Yes, Abu Yunus - it's possible - anythings possible - the Qur'an could be the creation of the mind of a 7th century Arab based on the Abrahamic tales he picked up? No?

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 10:12 PM
It's possible, but I very highly doubt it hence my faith. I don't think that Muhammad, Moses and Jesus were liars.

OMG - Fair enough its the only honest way to see it. I guess this technically puts you in the agnostic camp with me (albeit at different ends lol) , welcome aboard.

I guess I was wrong giving my vote to sorry Debunker. I should have kept my initial faith with the science camp, over the philosophically confused world of Debunker.

My Book
My Blog
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #312 - February 11, 2010, 10:41 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 11, 2010, 10:15 PM
They don't have to be liars, Abu Yunus. I also believe they were all sincere and believed what they said.

They are not the first people to sincerely believe God spoke to them - and they sure as hell aren't the last.

Hass, but do you think Muhammad truly belived he was a prophet but still secretly plaigiarized the Jewish and Christian scriptures?

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #313 - February 11, 2010, 10:52 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 10:03 PM
Maybe his army were for defensive purposes only

OK, let's say it was for defensive purposes.

Is it not strange that no record of 'defensive' battles with strange magical forces have ever been recorded. I realise that Debunker said that defeats were not likely to be recorded - but actually they were - not only by the defeated but by others. It is strange not to find any account of a significant battle - especially one that would have had all the survivors talking and spreading stories of magical forces.

But what do we have?

Zip!

Still don't find it odd?

Nor a single stone of that "Lofty Palace"? Even though the Isrealis have been working overtime to find any tiny trace!
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #314 - February 11, 2010, 10:57 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 10:41 PM
Hass, but do you think Muhammad truly belived he was a prophet but still secretly plaigiarized the Jewish and Christian scriptures?

I don't believe he consciously plaigiarized anything. Like I said, I believe Muhammad sincerely believed he was getting revelations from God.

I'm no psychiatrist but I know that people can subconsciously pick up on the tales around them, and internalise them. They can then be merged with their own thoughts without realising it. A bit like a songwriter writing an original song that others recognise as derivative of songs that he has subconsciously internalised.

Muhammad's 'revelations' reflect the context he lived in.
- Saif Rahman
- Ex-Muslim
- Je suis Haram
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #315 - February 11, 2010, 11:03 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 11, 2010, 10:41 PM
Hass, but do you think Muhammad truly belived he was a prophet but still secretly plaigiarized the Jewish and Christian scriptures?

I often find that the effect of Muhammed's grandfather on him is often understated. Indeed probably his largest influence in his life, he was raised by him and he would cut quite a powerful & prob old-fashioned figure . He would have probably been quite charasmatic according to reports in Islam and he was a head tribal figure in the Hanafis religion. Funnily enough this was a monotheistic religion that was against alcohol too. I understand little is known about this religion but I would love to find out more.

So I dont think he would have thought he was plagiarising these religions, but genuinely thought that they were the forerunners of the monotheistic ideology and therefore correct. His motivation are less clear, but my guess is that he wanted to unite his people's of Arabia under the monotheistic umbrella and although it got a lot larger than that, I dont think that was part of his initial plan nor expectation.

My Book
My Blog
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #316 - February 11, 2010, 11:38 PM

@ Abu Yunus

Quote
I think it's possible people make the assumption that the Quran is describing him as a 'warrior king' due to things they read from other scriptures and texts.

Quote
Again I think you are making assumptions here - the Quran does not mention him being involved in a single war - yes not a single one, and as I stated above:

Actually, according to the Bible, Solomon did not wage wars... it was his father, David who united Isarel... Solomon's era was that of peace according to the Bible.

However, from the language of the Quran, Solomon was a warrior prophet King. Besides, please think for a second: the minute he learned of the great Kingdom of Sheba, he demanded submission... it simply was off his radar... but the same cannot be said about Egypt/Assiriya/Babylon since these were his immediate neighbors. If he wanted the submission of Yemen, the second he knew about them, it only makes sense he already subdued Egypt and the rest.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #317 - February 11, 2010, 11:58 PM

@ Hassan

Quote
Hmm... yes... given great wealth, power, amazing palaces, and so on and he says thanks to his God.

Not really a ground-breaking example imho. In fact that prayer sounds pretty selfish - particularly as he had already inherited a Kingdom from his father David. (Interesting how in those days God tended to keep prophet hood within the family. Lucky old bani Israel - tough shit for all his neighbours who got killed for worshipping the wrong God. Now if it had been me, I would have sent them all a prophet instead of just one after another to bani israel.)

The Quran said every *nation* received a prophet: Nahl: 36.

The emphasis on Abraham and his line of prophets is of course understandable in the Bible and the Quran since both the Jews and Arabs are his descendents... Besides, these prophets of Israel were the greatest prophets, so that's another reason why the Quran concentrated on them.

Quote
Also, this great example is only recorded in the Bible and the Qur'an, apart from those who witnessed it at the time of course. Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to only for it not to be recorded in any history so those who arguably need it most could benefit from it.

I already speculated about that... he only ruled, by proxy, for like ~20 years... I don't see why those kings who were made his subjects would be keen on keeping records of this humiliating subjugation.

By the way, the Bible IS a historic document, even if it contained a lot of errors.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #318 - February 12, 2010, 12:00 AM

Quote from: Hassan on February 11, 2010, 10:15 PM
They don't have to be liars, Abu Yunus. I also believe they were all sincere and believed what they said.

They are not the first people to sincerely believe God spoke to them - and they sure as hell aren't the last.

You too believe Muhammed was sincere only he was hallucinating?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #319 - February 12, 2010, 12:06 AM

Btw, Hassan... Do you believe he was illiterate or not.. of course, the Quran does say he was illiterate.. but do you believe this claim?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #320 - February 12, 2010, 07:50 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 11, 2010, 11:58 PM
The Quran said every *nation* received a prophet: Nahl: 36.

Yes indeed - so many prophets - and we only have record of those sent to the Bani Israel - and Muhammad.

I assume you have seen what I think was my very first video about religion from way back when (and still one of my favourites):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TeKcFUbKIA

Quote from: debunker on February 11, 2010, 11:58 PM
The emphasis on Abraham and his line of prophets is of course understandable in the Bible and the Quran since both the Jews and Arabs are his descendents... Besides, these prophets of Israel were the greatest prophets, so that's another reason why the Quran concentrated on them.

Though the Muhammad & Qur'an was supposed to be a little different from all the 'local' prophets that went before. He & his book were the last message for the whole of mankind. Yet it still sticks single-mindedly to the Hebrew prophets and local traditions - that Muhammad would only have known about. Hmmm.... yes, very convenient!

Quote from: debunker on February 11, 2010, 11:58 PM
I already speculated about that... he only ruled, by proxy, for like ~20 years... I don't see why those kings who were made his subjects would be keen on keeping records of this humiliating subjugation.

By the way, the Bible IS a historic document, even if it contained a lot of errors.

As I say, defeats were often recorded by the defeated - and I find it hard that no astonished survivours didn't pass on tales of magical armies. Even 20 years of wars with such a magical kingdom would surely have found it's way into some record - somewhere. Apart from the "historical" documents of the Bible! I honestly don't understand why an intelligent chap like you doesn't have alarm bells going off.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #321 - February 12, 2010, 07:55 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 12, 2010, 12:00 AM
You too believe Muhammed was sincere only he was hallucinating?

Not sure about hallucinating - but I do believe he sincerely believed God spoke to him. I can show you Sufi Sheikhs today who sincerely believe they are getting messages directly from God, Muhammad or some long dead saint.

Are you telling me you find it unbelievable that human beings could sincerely believe God is talking to them - but be mistaken?
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #322 - February 12, 2010, 07:58 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 12, 2010, 12:06 AM
Btw, Hassan... Do you believe he was illiterate or not.. of course, the Quran does say he was illiterate.. but do you believe this claim?

I have no reason to reject the claim he was illiterate.
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #323 - February 12, 2010, 08:43 AM

Quote
Not sure about hallucinating - but I do believe he sincerely believed God spoke to him. I can show you Sufi Sheikhs today who sincerely believe they are getting messages directly from God, Muhammad or some long dead saint.

Are you telling me you find it unbelievable that human beings could sincerely believe God is talking to them - but be mistaken?

It's either one of two possibilities:

1- They're constantly hallucinating, like there's no one moment when they realize they're hallucinating and thus tell others they're hallucinating and not to take any future word they say seriously.

OR:

2- They're lying.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- Kenan
- Cultist
- Pub Regular
- Hwee cap-toored eet fohr kay-ohss !!!
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #324 - February 12, 2010, 08:57 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 12, 2010, 08:43 AM
It's either one of two possibilities:

1- They're constantly hallucinating, like there's no one moment when they realize they're hallucinating and thus tell others they're hallucinating and not to take any future word they say seriously.

OR:

2- They're lying.

What if he had a pathological condition?
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #325 - February 12, 2010, 09:40 AM

Quote
What if he had a pathological condition?

Constant hallucination is a pathological condition.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- Kenan
- Cultist
- Pub Regular
- Hwee cap-toored eet fohr kay-ohss !!!
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #326 - February 12, 2010, 10:17 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 12, 2010, 09:40 AM
Constant hallucination is a pathological condition.

True. I was however hinting more along the lines of Schizophrenia and such.
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #327 - February 12, 2010, 11:29 AM

Quote from: Hassan on February 11, 2010, 10:52 PM
OK, let's say it was for defensive purposes.

Is it not strange that no record of 'defensive' battles with strange magical forces have ever been recorded. I realise that Debunker said that defeats were not likely to be recorded - but actually they were - not only by the defeated but by others. It is strange not to find any account of a significant battle - especially one that would have had all the survivors talking and spreading stories of magical forces.

But what do we have?

Zip!

Still don't find it odd?

Nor a single stone of that "Lofty Palace"? Even though the Isrealis have been working overtime to find any tiny trace!

Hassan and debunker - I still feel the fact he was a great warrior king is an assumption (although I do accept he had control over this army of jinn birds and men) - and the fact remains there is still no mention of a single war in the Quran that Solomon was supposed to have participated in. Why he demanded the instant submission of the queen's people I don't know. In addition, perhaps the fact he needed the hoopoe bird to inform him of Shebas kingdom indicates that Solomon and his army only were in Israel and had not spread out to neighbouring lands.

Do you guys not at least agree that the fact he may have particpated in all these wars (whether they were agressive or defensive) is only an inference? Maybe constructing the large cooking pots in the ground, building arches etc. was actually what they spent their time doing.

I admit I find a bit odd we haven't found anything from his palace that we know for sure existed from the Quran.

btw Hassan and Debunker, from the Quran itself can we be absolutely sure regarding the period in history when Solomon was supposed to have reigned?

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- Saif Rahman
- Ex-Muslim
- Je suis Haram
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #328 - February 12, 2010, 11:36 AM

Quote from: Hassan on February 12, 2010, 07:58 AM
I have no reason to reject the claim he was illiterate.

How about he started off illiterate, and learned some literacy skills as he got older (like all of us, some more than others obviously )

My Book
My Blog
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #329 - February 12, 2010, 02:44 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 12, 2010, 11:29 AM
Maybe constructing the large cooking pots in the ground, building arches etc. was actually what they spent their time doing.

20 years of sumptuous banquets and playing war games in the desert - now there's a useful life and one worthy of enshrining in the last message to mankind as a great example. I wonder if Sulayman got a little fat with all that food?

And I wonder why the Jinn couldn't just make cooked food just magically appear on plates - it would save all that slaving over huge cooking pots. Then again, maybe Sulayman fancied himself as a bit of a Jamie Oliver!

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 12, 2010, 11:29 AM

I admit I find a bit odd we haven't found anything from his palace that we know for sure existed from the Quran.

btw Hassan and Debunker, from the Quran itself can we be absolutely sure regarding the period in history when Solomon was supposed to have reigned?

It seems there is very little we can be sure of when it comes to God's clear book.
Previous page 1 ... 9 10 1112 13 ... 19 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »