The Story of Sulayman

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #330 - February 12, 2010, 02:47 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 12, 2010, 11:36 AM
How about he started off illiterate, and learned some literacy skills as he got older (like all of us, some more than others obviously )

Either way it makes no difference as Muhammad could have come out with the Qur'an over the 25 year-period he did whether he was illiterate or not. Most Arabs at the time were illiterate - yet they were still able to produce amazing pre-Islamic poetry.
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #331 - February 12, 2010, 02:55 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 12, 2010, 02:44 PM
20 years of sumptuous banquets and playing war games in the desert - now there's a useful life and one worthy of enshrining in the last message to mankind as a great example. I wonder if Sulayman got a little fat with all that food?

And I wonder why the Jinn couldn't just make cooked food just magically appear on plates - it would save all that slaving over huge cooking pots. Then again, maybe Sulayman fancied himself as a bit of a Jamie Oliver!

Ok dude, no need to mock me. What I was trying to get at we actually do not know what he and his armies got up to - since it doesn't mention anything in the Quran. Maybe they just spread the word of God in a peaceful manner that did not necessitate any fighting.

Your suggestion that he was involved in all these wars is an inference only.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #332 - February 12, 2010, 03:10 PM

@ Yunus

may I say something? You sound angry at Hassan. I would just like to suggest using a softer tone...

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #333 - February 12, 2010, 03:18 PM

I very rarely get angry - in fact I can't remeber when the last time was I got angry at anything (lucky me).

Does my tone honestly seem angry?
The only time I got a bit annoyed at him is was when he started saying the 'muslims are poisoning the minds of their children' thing in this thread and in his Sulayman video - but I'm honestly past that now.

I know Hassan is an honest person just as you are. That is why I respect the both of your opinions.

PS if anything it sounds like both of you wanna give me a good beating

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #334 - February 12, 2010, 03:25 PM

Quote
Does my tone honestly seem angry?

ok, let me rephrase,,, it sounds a bit forceful...

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #335 - February 12, 2010, 03:27 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 11, 2010, 11:38 PM
@ Abu Yunus

Actually, according to the Bible, Solomon did not wage wars... it was his father, David who united Isarel... Solomon's era was that of peace according to the Bible.

However, from the language of the Quran, Solomon was a warrior prophet King. Besides, please think for a second: the minute he learned of the great Kingdom of Sheba, he demanded submission... it simply was off his radar... but the same cannot be said about Egypt/Assiriya/Babylon since these were his immediate neighbors. If he wanted the submission of Yemen, the second he knew about them, it only makes sense he already subdued Egypt and the rest.

@ Yunus... you didn't respond to this... care to comment?

Anyway, I would think that no great wars erupted... no one was match for his mighty army... perhaps one or two battles, and then they realized what kind of army he had...

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #336 - February 12, 2010, 03:42 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 12, 2010, 03:25 PM
ok, let me rephrase,,, it sounds a bit forceful...

I honestly have no idea where you're coming from. Anyone else think i'm being forceful? I'm the one being asked most of the questions aren't I? in fact the only times I have asked a question is when it is a response to one of his questions (except when I asked him about the islam to children thing). If you read through my posts you'll see most if not all of them are of a defensive nature.

So no I'm not trying to be forceful about anything - in fact I'm sincerely surprised you think this. I support Hassans right to think anything he wants and to say anything he wants.

''If he wanted the submission of Yemen, the second he knew about them, it only makes sense he already subdued Egypt and the rest. ''

again that's your inference- nothing more - are you willing to accpet it's only an inference? In addition because he needed the hoopoe bird to tell him about this kingdom in Yemen it might suggest Solomon and his forces were still in Israel and had not spread to neighbouring lands.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #337 - February 12, 2010, 04:07 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 12, 2010, 03:42 PM
again that's your inference- nothing more - are you willing to accpet it's only an inference? In addition because he needed the hoopoe bird to tell him about this kingdom in Yemen it might suggest Solomon and his forces were still in Israel and had not spread to neighbouring lands.

Looks like it all holds on the defence of the Hoopee bird.

Could defendent number 2 take the stand. Dear Hoopee bird, did you, or did you not, tell King Soloman about the Kingdom of Yemen?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #338 - February 12, 2010, 04:15 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 12, 2010, 02:55 PM
Ok dude, no need to mock me. What I was trying to get at we actually do not know what he and his armies got up to - since it doesn't mention anything in the Quran. Maybe they just spread the word of God in a peaceful manner that did not necessitate any fighting.

Your suggestion that he was involved in all these wars is an inference only.

I'm not mocking you Abu Yunus - I have a great deal of respect for you and Debunker. You both have shown great honesty, integrity and courage to scrutinise and discuss matters that must make you a little uncomfortable at times.

I never mock individuals - at least I try not to.

I do however mock this story and other aspects of Islam - though I hope I do it in a gentle and light-hearted manner.

I apologise if I seem to go a bit far sometimes - but trust me it is not directed at you personally.
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #339 - February 12, 2010, 04:28 PM

Hassan, no worries I know you always mean these types of things in a light-hearted manner and you yourself are just trying to get to the bottom of things. My responses are always to try and discuss what I feel might be innacuracies in your blog/videos. No need to apologise as I know your comments are not directed at me personally.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #340 - February 12, 2010, 04:32 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 12, 2010, 03:42 PM
I honestly have no idea where you're coming from. Anyone else think i'm being forceful? I'm the one being asked most of the questions aren't I? in fact the only times I have asked a question is when it is a response to one of his questions (except when I asked him about the islam to children thing). If you read through my posts you'll see most if not all of them are of a defensive nature.

So no I'm not trying to be forceful about anything - in fact I'm sincerely surprised you think this. I support Hassans right to think anything he wants and to say anything he wants.

''If he wanted the submission of Yemen, the second he knew about them, it only makes sense he already subdued Egypt and the rest. ''

again that's your inference- nothing more - are you willing to accpet it's only an inference? In addition because he needed the hoopoe bird to tell him about this kingdom in Yemen it might suggest Solomon and his forces were still in Israel and had not spread to neighbouring lands.

Oh please! So Solomon didn't know any kingdom existed on planet Earth, until the hoopoe told him about Yemen? But even after Yemen, he still didn't know there was a kingdom in Egypt or one in Assyria?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #341 - February 12, 2010, 05:01 PM

''Oh please! So Solomon didn't know any kingdom existed on planet Earth, until the hoopoe told him about Yemen? But even after Yemen, he still didn't know there was a kingdom in Egypt or one in Assyria?''

He may have known about many kingdoms - does that mean he went and attacked them or that he was involved in wars with them?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #342 - February 12, 2010, 05:04 PM

Based in on the story of Sheba? YES! ABSOLUTELY! Again, the minute he heard about them he wanted them to submit to him... why would he do that to Yemen out of all other kingdom... why Yemen specifically?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #343 - February 12, 2010, 05:09 PM

I don't know

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #344 - February 12, 2010, 05:25 PM

but you should... the verses are very clear on this.. he heard they were a kingdom that worshipped the sun... immediately, he wanted to subjugate them.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #345 - February 12, 2010, 05:27 PM

Yes I'm clear on this verse - what I don't know is why he would want to specifically subjugate the queens people in yemen and not other kingdoms - if this was indeed the case.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #346 - February 12, 2010, 06:30 PM

Ok, let me ask you a hypothetical question.... how would your attitude change towards this story if you learned that Solomon also subjugated Egypt/Assyria in much the same way he subjugated Yemen?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #347 - February 12, 2010, 09:26 PM

If the Quran said he subjugated Egypt and Asyrria then I would of course believe that.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #348 - February 12, 2010, 09:33 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 12, 2010, 09:26 PM
If the Quran said he subjugated Egypt and Asyrria then I would of course believe that.

It seems to me many passages of the Qur'an are an enigma to you Abu Yunus.

The fact is that Qur'an is often very brief in it's wording and alludes to stories that it assumes it's audience is aware of. I have no doubt that the Qur'an was speaking to an audience that knew what it's references meant.

Today - particularly amongst 'Qur'an only' Muslims - this creates quite a problem, with passages in the Qur'an making little sense on their own.
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #349 - February 12, 2010, 09:46 PM

Abu do you even deny revelational hadiths? These are hadiths related to the Quranic verses.
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #350 - February 12, 2010, 09:47 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 12, 2010, 09:33 PM
Today - particularly amongst 'Qur'an only' Muslims - this creates quite a problem, with passages in the Qur'an making little sense on their own.

Suits them fine - even less to critique

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #351 - February 12, 2010, 09:54 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 12, 2010, 09:47 PM
Suits them fine - even less to critique

Well yes, but that leaves a final revelation to all mankind that is oblique, confusing and full of ambiguity

Doesn't really reflect well on the Almighty.
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #352 - February 12, 2010, 09:56 PM

@ Hassan

Quote
It seems to me many passages of the Qur'an are an enigma to you Abu Yunus.

The fact is that Qur'an is often very brief in it's wording and alludes to stories that it assumes it's audience is aware of. I have no doubt that the Qur'an was speaking to an audience that knew what it's references meant.

Today - particularly amongst 'Qur'an only' Muslims - this creates quite a problem, with passages in the Qur'an making little sense on their own.

Well, since you mentioned it, that's one of the questions I wanted to ask you about and I find troubling...

You say the audience (Sahana) knew what the Quran was talking about... that might be true when it concerned their life/events in medina, but when it comes to other verses, like the verse of the Heights for example, there's not a single Hadith about it...

Now, if I can imagine myself being one of the prophets companions and I hear of the the men of the Heights, I would immediately ask the prophet about it... in fact, such a verse, all the Sahaba should ask about it and we should even have a Mutawatir hadith about it, yet NOTHING... Ibn Kathir's imagination goes wild on this... can you believe this? What are we to conclude?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #353 - February 12, 2010, 10:17 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 12, 2010, 09:56 PM
@ Hassan

Well, since you mentioned it, that's one of the questions I wanted to ask you about and I find troubling...

You say the audience (Sahana) knew what the Quran was talking about... that might be true when it concerned their life/events in medina, but when it comes to other verses, like the verse of the Heights for example, there's not a single Hadith about it...

Now, if I can imagine myself being one of the prophets companions and I hear of the the men of the Heights, I would immediately ask the prophet about it... in fact, such a verse, all the Sahaba should ask about it and we should even have a Mutawatir hadith about it, yet NOTHING... Ibn Kathir's imagination goes wild on this... can you believe this? What are we to conclude?

I have to confess it was not a topic that troubled me when I was a Muslim. I regarded it as one of the mystical/metaphorical verses that one could speculate about but ultimately God knew best! (I had a lot more troublesome verses that took my attention.)

Now I see it as part and parcel of any prophet/seer/sage's repertoire - namely a bit of mystery and intrigue. Something to get one to wonder at the meaning.

I have no doubt that references to stories like Sulayman were expected to be familiar to Muhammad's audience - at the very least to his Jewish audience who he tried hard to win over.

But there is an element of mystery - just as any good entertainer has - to keep his audience guessing. (As a teacher I know that to get a class of children's attention, using words like 'secret' and 'magic' will do the trick - but they must be used sparingly.)

That is of course my humble opinion and Allah knows best
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #354 - February 12, 2010, 10:38 PM

That Mo must have been one crafty fella

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #355 - February 12, 2010, 10:40 PM

A genius my friend. A genius.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #356 - February 12, 2010, 10:44 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 12, 2010, 10:38 PM
That Mo must have been one crafty fella

Crafty as in devious? No, I don't think so. These things come naturally when trying to get an audience's attention - they don't feel devious, just tools of the trade.

I also believe some personalities are naturally manipulative - while 100 % believing they are totally justified and right in what they do - and most crucially in Muhammad's case they totally believe their own stories.

I have known people like that. They believe their own tales - utterly!
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #357 - February 12, 2010, 10:48 PM

Mohammed was an estoric man. He was a man that wanted to see change. He believed in Allah. He wanted the respect and love of his elders. He wanted to save the people from a hell fueled by men and stones. He was a man of his time. 7the Century Arabia, he knew not farther than what the people knew. He was a man that did whatever was necessary to make Islam the true religion and unite the tribes of Arabia. He loved his people. But he was a man of his time. It's hard to imagine this religion being the religion of our time. Why? If I am to worship God, I can do so without Islam. What is so special about Islam? What is the great truth in it, that you can't find anywhere else?

What makes Islam the great last religion for all of mankind for all of time? Is it so just because it says so? Should it not prove itself on other merits, other than braggadocio claims?
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #358 - February 12, 2010, 11:24 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 12, 2010, 10:44 PM
Crafty as in devious? No, I don't think so. These things come naturally when trying to get an audience's attention - they don't feel devious, just tools of the trade.

I also believe some personalities are naturally manipulative - while 100 % believing they are totally justified and right in what they do - and most crucially in Muhammad's case they totally believe their own stories.

I have known people like that. They believe their own tales - utterly!

Reminds me of that poster who came here after believing he genuinely had sex with Allah - did you read that thread?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #359 - February 12, 2010, 11:38 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 12, 2010, 11:24 PM
Reminds me of that poster who came here after believing he genuinely had sex with Allah - did you read that thread?

Thankfully not! lol
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