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 Topic: The Story of Sulayman

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #390 - February 16, 2010, 08:00 PM
    @ BD

    I once asked you a hypothetical question about a God, not according to Islam, a God I invented, but you never answered.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #391 - February 16, 2010, 08:00 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 07:51 PM
    That's the point I tried to explain in our discussion in the Exclusive Rooms... God is NOT a human. I don't project my human understanding of the word "mercy" when it's attributed to God... i explained in detail in that discussion but unfortunately you were not interested AT ALL.


    Then the word has no meaning for us, Debunker! Nor - in that case - does the whole of the Qur'an! How could God expect us to understand it in any other way other than a human way?

    Nor could he expect us to come to any other conclusion other than such a God is a very awful, terrifying and nightmarish creature.

    A God who appears to want the obedience of the fearful - regardless of whether they really love/respect him.

    A God who creates human intelligence only to punish man for it.

    A God who appears to create creatures capable of a greater love and compassion than he displays to them in his communications to them in their language that they are supposed to use to decide whether to believe in him or not?

    Can you not see that none of this makes any sense?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #392 - February 16, 2010, 08:02 PM
    Quote
    Sure I can also think the way you do. God is too magnificent to understand. But is this really the way to proceed? I know there is a limit to my understanding. But have you really reached the limits of your understanding when it comes to the subjects we discuss and more importantly the subjects we disagree on, such as hell fire and mercy?


    That was only a tiny part of my answer to Hassan..
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #393 - February 16, 2010, 08:04 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 08:00 PM
    @ BD

    I once asked you a hypothetical question about a God, not according to Islam, a God I invented, but you never answered.


    Sorry I don't remember, was it the one where I answered and you asked God should not care about any of his creatures?!
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #394 - February 16, 2010, 08:13 PM
    @ Hassan

    Quote
    Then the word has no meaning for us, Debunker! Nor - in that case - does the whole of the Qur'an! How could God expect us to understand it in any other way other than a human way?


    The Quran only approximates the nature of God to us.. I even shown you two verses in that discussion which say that.

    Quote
    Nor could he expect most us to NOT to come to the conclusion that such a God is a very awful, terrifying and nightmarish creature

    .

    Again, I explained that I don't see anyting awful about me throwing specks of dust in an ever lasting Hell. I have the ability to fathom how insignificant we are compared to God... heck, I can even imagine how infinitely insignificant we are compared to the known universe.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U

    Quote
    A God who appears to want the obedience of the fearful - regardless of whether they really love/respect him.

    A God who creates human intelligence only to punish man for it.


    I believe I discussed these two points in that thread.

    Quote
    A God who appears to create creatures capable of a greater love and compassion than he displays to them in his communications to them in their language that they are supposed to use to decide whether to believe in him or not?

    Can you not see that none of this makes any sense?


    The gist of what I tried to explain in that thread was: An infinite God does NOT care if infinitely small specks of dust were tortured in Hell forever... In fact, I explained that only because He's infinitely merciful would He care to save some of us... the original condition is: God is too great to care, and God, not caring equals Hell... I have explained all of this in detail in that thread, but you were very bored with I had to say you barely said anything.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #395 - February 16, 2010, 08:15 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on February 16, 2010, 08:04 PM
    Sorry I don't remember, was it the one where I answered and you asked God should not care about any of his creatures?!


    yep... here it is again...
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8719.16
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #396 - February 17, 2010, 03:58 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 08:13 PM
    An infinite God does NOT care if infinitely small specks of dust were tortured in Hell forever... In fact, I explained that only because He's infinitely merciful would He care to save some of us...


    This is probably why our discussion came to an end. I honestly have nothing to say to this other than what a horrible conception of God you have Debunker.

    Like Ahmad Bahgat once said to me (in so many words) 'too bad if God wants to torture us in hell - he can do what he likes.'

    I am utterly unable to believe in such a God - and even if he was proven to exist I would only submit out of fear and I would do my best to disguise how much I despise and hate such a monster.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #397 - February 17, 2010, 04:05 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 17, 2010, 03:58 PM
    I am utterly unable to believe in such a God - and even if he was proven to exist I would only submit out of fear and I would do my best to disguise how much I despise and hate such a monster.

    Me too - but submit? Of course I would too .. (and so too do the rest of the Ummah, but of course they do this out of their love for God)

    Why do you submit 5 times a day DB?  Out of fear or love?
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #398 - February 17, 2010, 04:38 PM
    "We cannot understand God", "God works in a mysterious way", etc.

    Explained at 3:40

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivUrlqD7Fyk
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #399 - February 17, 2010, 05:25 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 08:13 PM
    I don't see anyting awful about me throwing specks of dust in an ever lasting Hell


    These specks of dust have been created to feel joy and pain, Debunker. To think and feel. To suffer and enjoy. To feel love and loss.

    I am truly speechless that an intelligent person as you can see nothing wrong with the idea of a God who would create us to suffer eternally - no matter how insignificant we are to him.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #400 - February 17, 2010, 05:37 PM
    debunker, please flip the bird at God for being a bigoted attention-seeking kid in a pram. Your mind is being wasted by clinging onto the fear and intimidation because of the figment God.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #401 - February 17, 2010, 06:03 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 17, 2010, 04:05 PM
    Me too - but submit? Of course I would too .. (and so too do the rest of the Ummah, but of course they do this out of their love for God)

    Why do you submit 5 times a day DB?  Out of fear or love?


    You know if I discovered there really was such a cruel, sadistic God who would create people to feel pain then make them suffer it for eternity - I would like to say I would spit in his eye.

    But let's face it, when faced with such torture one would not be so courageous.

    However a God who prefers threats and trembling, sniveling obedience over true love and respect - deserves nothing more than our utter contempt.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #402 - February 17, 2010, 06:05 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 17, 2010, 06:03 PM
    You know if I discovered there really was such a cruel, sadistic God who would create people to feel pain then make them suffer it for eternity - I would like to say I would spit in his eye.

    But I doubt I would be as noble as to hold my principles above an eternity of torture.

    However a God who prefers threats and trembling, sniveling obedience over true love and respect - deserves nothing more than our utter contempt.


     Afro

    Even if Allah does exist, we must kill him.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #403 - February 17, 2010, 06:09 PM
    @ Hassan

    I already discussed all the points you're raising in that thread... but you ignored me!  Cry
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #404 - February 17, 2010, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on February 17, 2010, 06:05 PM
    Afro

    Even if Allah does exist, we must kill him.


    Ha! You tried before Lucifer, remember? When half the angels of the heaven joined you in your rebellion against God... but thanks to Michael, you were defeated! Hmmmm? I wonder, did you not know that He could have simply uttered a word and you'd be immediately defeated? What was going on your mind Lucifer? How could you think you had a chance to win against God?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #405 - February 17, 2010, 06:13 PM
    Iblis is like a mujahideen. Only he actually has a good cause.   Wink

    Sometimes even a suicidal stand against a tyrant is the right thing to do. Afro
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #406 - February 17, 2010, 06:16 PM
    So you're saying the story in the Bible about how you fell out the grace of God is true?! You actually thought there's the slightest chance to overthrow God?!!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #407 - February 17, 2010, 06:17 PM
    Read the comic book Preacher. It will show you how it can happen.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #408 - February 17, 2010, 06:18 PM
    Speak truth to the tyrant. I believe a wise man once said that.

    Allah is a tyrant, a cosmic Saddam Hussein. Fuck him.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #409 - February 17, 2010, 06:21 PM
    No offense, but after reading the finer points of the stories in the Quran, the miraculous once, I can say the story of Disney's Alladin wouldn't be too far from being put in there.

    It has a talking parrot. A nice Jinn. A flying carpet. A love story. A man trying to do good. And an evil tyrant.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #410 - February 17, 2010, 06:25 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on February 17, 2010, 06:18 PM
    Speak truth to the tyrant. I believe a wise man once said that.

    Allah is a tyrant, a cosmic Saddam Hussein. Fuck him.


    Look at you now Lucifer... all defeated and bitter...   grin12
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #411 - February 17, 2010, 06:26 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on February 17, 2010, 06:21 PM
    No offense, but after reading the finer points of the stories in the Quran, the miraculous once, I can say the story of Disney's Alladin wouldn't be too far from being put in there.

    It has a talking parrot. A nice Jinn. A flying carpet. A love story. A man trying to do good.


    I thought you already knew that many of the stories of A Thousand Nights was inspired from Solomon's story and related Jewish literature.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #412 - February 17, 2010, 06:34 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 17, 2010, 06:09 PM
    @ Hassan

    I already discussed all the points you're raising in that thread... but you ignored me!  Cry


    Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you. I tend to switch off if a post gets too long - not your fault - my attention span these days is short.

    Care to perhaps say briefly why God would create creatures to feel pain and then make them suffer eternally?
     
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #413 - February 17, 2010, 06:43 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 17, 2010, 06:25 PM
    Look at you now Lucifer... all defeated and bitter...   grin12


    Lucifer had morals and principles. Unlike Allah. Wink
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #414 - February 17, 2010, 06:46 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 17, 2010, 06:34 PM
    Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you. I tend to switch off if a post gets too long - not your fault - my attention span these days is short.

    Care to perhaps say briefly why God would create creatures to feel pain and then make them suffer eternally?
     



    Care to perhaps say briefly why God would create creatures to feel pain and then make them suffer eternally?

    Why does God create? Because He is a creator, and unlike angels, men were given the *ability* to choose, thus God created something new, something different. This ability to choose can be viewed as a bliss or a curse. And like I explained in that thread, the Quranic claim is that only those who choose to reject the truth out of pride/arrogance, only those to whom God assigns no weight. 

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #415 - February 17, 2010, 06:53 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 17, 2010, 06:46 PM
    Why does God create? Because He is a creator, and unlike angels, men were given the *ability* to choose, thus God created something new, something different. This ability to choose can be viewed as a bliss or a curse. And like I explained in that thread, the Quranic claim is that only those who choose to reject the truth out of pride/arrogance, only those to whom God assigns no weight.  


    It's not the creating bit I'm questioning - it's the creating people for eternity in hell that I'm concerned about.

    Leaving aside questions about whether those who reject God actually are being prideful or arrogant - or even whether such pride and arrogance deserves punishing or is just an understandable result of the limited perspective they have been given.

    My question is why create an eternal hell? Why not just make them no-longer exist?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #416 - February 17, 2010, 07:01 PM
    Quote
    My question is why create an eternal hell? Why not just make them no-longer exist?


     Cry now I know you actually skimmed through that thread.. you didn't read everything! I thought you'd even check the verse numbers I provied  Cry...

    Anyway, I already explained in that thread that the human soul is eternal and as such it needs an eternal abode... if God does NOT care about a soul, then there is no reason this eternal abode should be any more convenient than hell.

    God does not care = Hell.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #417 - February 17, 2010, 07:08 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 17, 2010, 07:01 PM
    Cry now I know you actually skimmed through that thread.. you didn't read everything! I thought you'd even check the verse numbers I provied  Cry...

    Anyway, I already explained in that thread that the human soul is eternal and as such it needs an eternal abode... if God does NOT care about a soul, then there is no reason this eternal abode should be any more convenient than hell.

    God does not care = Hell.


    I did read that in your reply - but I don't find that a satisfactory answer and I'm surprised you do.

    You talk as if God has to follow the rules - when he has made the rules!

    He doesn't have to let any soul suffer eternally.

    They suffer eternally because he designed it to be so.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #418 - February 17, 2010, 07:10 PM
    ok, of course God can break the rules and make the human soul stop to exist, but why would He care to give me such a convenient exit, when He doesn't care about me at all?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #419 - February 17, 2010, 07:22 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 17, 2010, 07:10 PM
    ok, of course God can break the rules and make the human soul stop to exist, but why would He care to give me such a convenient exit, when He doesn't care about me at all?


    Now this is my problem with your concept of God.

    God did care enough to create you and give you feelings - including the ability to feel pain - yet he then does not care that this creature will suffer eternal pain as a result.

    Was this a little amusement for him?

    It's not that I haven't read what you said, Debunker - I simply cannot understand how you think such a God is worthy of our love and worship?
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